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Jason_1977
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Well, I dont think guitars should take communion unless they’ve been to confession. LMAO!!!
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FAB
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Sarabande
Guest
You misunderstood me as well and I’m sorry for that. I don’t think blue collar is bad at all either. I also explained that I know you didn’t mean it that way, and in that post I explained when I first read it, I immediately thought that was what you meant and was taken aback because to me “blue collar” is a term to describe a class of people. It is easy to take what you said as saying mediocrity is equal to being blue collar, which I know that you know it isn’t and thus is why I thought I made that clear later on in my post. Apparently, I didn’t and I apologize for that.
If you read on in the second part of my post, you’d see that I understood what you were getting at though and I may not have explained myself as well either. Perhaps using “blue collar” was just the wrong term to use. That’s why choice of words are so important. We’re all “guilty” of choosing terminology which may make sense to us, but not necessarily to everyone who is listening or reading. I wasn’t offended when I wrote my post, I was just explaining how it could be misconstrued especially since I initially misunderstood what you wrote as such, but after reading it a second time, saw what you were getting at. I don’t believe there is an Utopia on earth either. I know there is the ideal and then there is the reality. The reality isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but trying to reach the ideal and encouraging it isn’t bad either.
My apologies if you were offended. It was not meant to do so.
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Jason_1977
Guest
WAY OFF TOPIC, but …
I HAVE A QUESTION::::::
I’ve only been Catholic for a year and a half & I have no issue with anything thus far, everything pretty much makes sense. I was curious though. Someone was talking to me about Confession & Eucharist & essentially if you havent been to confession, you cant take the eucharist. MY understanding was if you have committed a MORTAL sin, then yes, to the confessional, and it’s ok to receive the eucharist. If a Venial sin is committed, (7 lesser or deadly, however you want to call it), then the PERFECT thing to do is go to confession, then you can receive the eucharist, BUT if you dont make it to confession, and you DO go to mass, then before mass, make a good act of contrition for your venial sins. Is this true? Can someone shine some light on this? I know Confession is for all sins in a perfect world, if that were the case I’d be in there every week. Is it for the mortal sins, & if you have venial, get those out too? I mean, I got this info from a life long catholic & I have a hard time accepting anything unless I bounce it off a second opinion. THANKS!!!
I HAVE A QUESTION::::::
I’ve only been Catholic for a year and a half & I have no issue with anything thus far, everything pretty much makes sense. I was curious though. Someone was talking to me about Confession & Eucharist & essentially if you havent been to confession, you cant take the eucharist. MY understanding was if you have committed a MORTAL sin, then yes, to the confessional, and it’s ok to receive the eucharist. If a Venial sin is committed, (7 lesser or deadly, however you want to call it), then the PERFECT thing to do is go to confession, then you can receive the eucharist, BUT if you dont make it to confession, and you DO go to mass, then before mass, make a good act of contrition for your venial sins. Is this true? Can someone shine some light on this? I know Confession is for all sins in a perfect world, if that were the case I’d be in there every week. Is it for the mortal sins, & if you have venial, get those out too? I mean, I got this info from a life long catholic & I have a hard time accepting anything unless I bounce it off a second opinion. THANKS!!!
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Guitar
Guest
I once ended a thesis tracing the history of the long period of non-use and eventual use of the organ in Christian worship with almost these exact words - the version I found replaced “grace” with “mercy”.
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captainbernie
Guest
I have just finished looking over 38 pages of threads in an effort to help me make a big (for me) decision. I have been playing a guitar in liturgical settings for about 25 years. I come to Mass to celebrate Christ’s resurrection, a celebration of God’s mercy and the benefit of the Resurrection. In my parish it is the practice for the same songs to be played at every Mass each week. Some songs are better played on the acoustic instruments; others are better accompanied on the organ (which wasn’t around when Christ walked on the earth). (I saw no reference to joyful noise, cymbals and lyres, that were in use at Jesus’ synagogue. Did Christ “diss” that traditions?)
The joy of celebrating and encouraging the congregation to sing (the mission of the music leader) is no longer there for me. My “retiring” from active music ministry will result in more of the music I don’t care for, but that’s ok. At least I know I won’t be offending those who dislike the acoustic guitar any longer.
The joy of celebrating and encouraging the congregation to sing (the mission of the music leader) is no longer there for me. My “retiring” from active music ministry will result in more of the music I don’t care for, but that’s ok. At least I know I won’t be offending those who dislike the acoustic guitar any longer.
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JReducation
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Are you telling me that you’re giving up playing the accousitc guitar because some people don’t like it? That does not work that way. The rubrics are clear on this. You can paly the guitar at mass. It is certain types of songs that are more for entertainment that should not be played, not the instrument.
I was just watching a video on our own Poor Clare Nuns in Africa where they use their local instrumetns in a very solemn way during mass, the Liturgy of the Hours and other forms of prayer.
This is a gift that God has given you. If you share it by leading your brothers and sisters in worshiping God, by all means use it. This is not what the Church has in mind. We must read these documents with the Church’s understanding. The Church’s understanding is clear. Keep the secular out, not the instrument. It’s not about the instrument. Remember, if you have serious questions, call or write your local bishop. Do what he tells you to do.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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benedictgal
Guest
Even after these 38 pages I am still unconvinced of the sacral nature of the guitar for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. What the proponents of guitar music seem to forget is that the organ holds pride of place in the Church’s liturgical life. Guitars, for me, are more along the lines of secular pop/folk music. A lot of the songs pushed by OCP and GIA are more along the lines of bad pop music than genuine sacred music, especially the tripe from Spirit and Song.
We need to recapture the sense of beauty, the sense of the sacred and the sense of majesty in the Mass. The guitar just does not cut it. I have heard enough bad guitar music in my brief time on this planet to know that it is just not fitting.
I realize that this sounds harsh, but, the strumming and the picking are more in line with Woodstock than with the Mass.
While I was getting read for Mass, I heard some of the broadcast of the One World Praying event that EWTN was airing. The music for that particular Mass was horrendous. It had bongo drums, a drum kit and it was just plain awful. The songs for Communion were more along the lines of Protestant Praise and Worship than anything truly sacred. Regardless of who was playing and singing, it was just not fitting.
I am in the process of planning my cousin’s wedding. To my joyful surprise, she wanted an organist and a cantor. She wanted Traditional music and so I am working with the organist and the cantor. She did not want a guitar. She also did not want the wedding march. There is hope in that the younger generation is craving something greater than themselves. Even the youth minister at my parish wants to sit down with me to discuss his wedding (another surprise).
We need to recapture the sense of beauty, the sense of the sacred and the sense of majesty in the Mass. The guitar just does not cut it. I have heard enough bad guitar music in my brief time on this planet to know that it is just not fitting.
I realize that this sounds harsh, but, the strumming and the picking are more in line with Woodstock than with the Mass.
While I was getting read for Mass, I heard some of the broadcast of the One World Praying event that EWTN was airing. The music for that particular Mass was horrendous. It had bongo drums, a drum kit and it was just plain awful. The songs for Communion were more along the lines of Protestant Praise and Worship than anything truly sacred. Regardless of who was playing and singing, it was just not fitting.
I am in the process of planning my cousin’s wedding. To my joyful surprise, she wanted an organist and a cantor. She wanted Traditional music and so I am working with the organist and the cantor. She did not want a guitar. She also did not want the wedding march. There is hope in that the younger generation is craving something greater than themselves. Even the youth minister at my parish wants to sit down with me to discuss his wedding (another surprise).
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Ockham
Guest
Look at it this way, maybe now you can spend more time focusing on Christ’s sacrifice instead of which folk song to strum next.
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JReducation
Guest
I am watching the replay of the closing mass for the the One World Praying and I’m watching the Christian musician, whose name I can’t remember, he’s the Hispanic man who plays the guitar with is feet, because he was born with no arms.
I doubt that God would want him to stop playing for him at mass, because it’s a guitar. In fact, he’s playing a rendition of the Magnificat, which is appropriate for a Fatima gathering. I remeber him being invited to play for Pope John Paul II several times and how much John Paul seemed to love having him play at his masses. I saw him play in Deven and again in St. Peter’s in Rome.
So I don’t think that we can easily dismiss a guitarist with a gift, because we don’t like folk music. There are other forms of music that are also played with guitars around the world. As I said, I watched a report of our own Poor Clares in Africa and how the lead their contemplative lives and prayer using local instruments, including one guitar that a sister brought from Assisi.
The goal is to walk each other through the interior castles of contemplation, not to discourage people from using their gifts either at mass or elsewhere. That’s not what the Church is tryingt to tell people with special gifts. She is trying to keep the entertainment outside, not the gifts. Let us encourage people to use their gifts. And if their gift is music, let us encourage them to use their musical talent to compose good music for any instrument. This will not take away from the organ. The organ became the instrument of choice, because someone composed good music that could be played on it. Had that not happened, it would not have become the instrument of preference in the Latin Rite Church or the Protestant Churches. That’s not the case in the East.
Again, let us encourage musicians to find ways of leading us to the gates of contemplation, with whatever instrument we find. There was a wonderful concert pianist on EWTN’s Life of the Rock. The man writes beautiful masses. I tuned it late for the entire interview, but heard one of his peices that he played on a keyboard. It was beautiful and very solemn, while at the same time it blended the classis with modern sounds.
I didn’t get much, other than he’s going to be doing some work with Radix. But apparently, he was asked by the Franciscans of the Eternal Word to put together a mass for them, in a pinch, and he did a wonderful job. Like I said, I heard one piece and was impressed.
So, let’s not discourage our artists. Let us encourage them to use the gift of beauty that they have recieved to lead others to contemplation.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
I doubt that God would want him to stop playing for him at mass, because it’s a guitar. In fact, he’s playing a rendition of the Magnificat, which is appropriate for a Fatima gathering. I remeber him being invited to play for Pope John Paul II several times and how much John Paul seemed to love having him play at his masses. I saw him play in Deven and again in St. Peter’s in Rome.
So I don’t think that we can easily dismiss a guitarist with a gift, because we don’t like folk music. There are other forms of music that are also played with guitars around the world. As I said, I watched a report of our own Poor Clares in Africa and how the lead their contemplative lives and prayer using local instruments, including one guitar that a sister brought from Assisi.
The goal is to walk each other through the interior castles of contemplation, not to discourage people from using their gifts either at mass or elsewhere. That’s not what the Church is tryingt to tell people with special gifts. She is trying to keep the entertainment outside, not the gifts. Let us encourage people to use their gifts. And if their gift is music, let us encourage them to use their musical talent to compose good music for any instrument. This will not take away from the organ. The organ became the instrument of choice, because someone composed good music that could be played on it. Had that not happened, it would not have become the instrument of preference in the Latin Rite Church or the Protestant Churches. That’s not the case in the East.
Again, let us encourage musicians to find ways of leading us to the gates of contemplation, with whatever instrument we find. There was a wonderful concert pianist on EWTN’s Life of the Rock. The man writes beautiful masses. I tuned it late for the entire interview, but heard one of his peices that he played on a keyboard. It was beautiful and very solemn, while at the same time it blended the classis with modern sounds.
I didn’t get much, other than he’s going to be doing some work with Radix. But apparently, he was asked by the Franciscans of the Eternal Word to put together a mass for them, in a pinch, and he did a wonderful job. Like I said, I heard one piece and was impressed.
So, let’s not discourage our artists. Let us encourage them to use the gift of beauty that they have recieved to lead others to contemplation.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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benedictgal
Guest
So, what is wrong with asking for and desiring genuine sacred music? What is wrong with wanting the music used for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass to be of the highest quality and with wanting the proper instruments to be used for same?
A lot of the music for the One World Praying Mass was not at all suitable for the Mass. It was mostly Protestant Praise and Worship music. I am surprised that the Blue Army opted for this kind of music. Inasmuch as the musician in question sang the Magnificat and the Hail Mary, everything else was not suitable. It certainly was not up to the usual EWTN standards. I find it highly unlikely that EWTN would have wanted that kind of music used for the Mass. Whoever is supposed to handle the music should be better versed in what the Church standards are. The bongo drums and the drum kit should not have been used.
What folks do not seem to understand is that the musicians need to study the Church documents and not necessarily go by how or what they feel, but, what the Church provides by way of Musicam Sacram and even the Chirograph on Sacred Music. What they played was better suited for a prayer meeting or some other event outside of the Mass, but, not during the Mass. It’s not a matter of putting the musicians down; rather, it is a matter of telling them that they need to have some sort of accountability and that they need to study the Church documents. I do not think that this is too much to ask.
A lot of the music for the One World Praying Mass was not at all suitable for the Mass. It was mostly Protestant Praise and Worship music. I am surprised that the Blue Army opted for this kind of music. Inasmuch as the musician in question sang the Magnificat and the Hail Mary, everything else was not suitable. It certainly was not up to the usual EWTN standards. I find it highly unlikely that EWTN would have wanted that kind of music used for the Mass. Whoever is supposed to handle the music should be better versed in what the Church standards are. The bongo drums and the drum kit should not have been used.
What folks do not seem to understand is that the musicians need to study the Church documents and not necessarily go by how or what they feel, but, what the Church provides by way of Musicam Sacram and even the Chirograph on Sacred Music. What they played was better suited for a prayer meeting or some other event outside of the Mass, but, not during the Mass. It’s not a matter of putting the musicians down; rather, it is a matter of telling them that they need to have some sort of accountability and that they need to study the Church documents. I do not think that this is too much to ask.
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JReducation
Guest
Don’t misunderstand me. I did say that those who have the gift of music should be encouraged to created beautiful music for worship. What I am opposed to is dismissing them from the liturgy, because they do not play the organ. That’s not what the documents are asking for. They are asking to keep the secular entertainment out and the sacred in.
When someone says that “now you can concentrate on the sacrifice instead of worrying about what to strum next” or some such thing, that is a cruel statement to someone who wants to lead their brothers and sisters to praise God. I agree with you. We should encourage and help our musicisians write and compose beautiful music. It can be done, with time and patience.
As to the mass, I noticed three classic Marian hymns. The sound was terrible. I’m not familiar with the physical arrangement, so that may have had something to do with it. I get the impression that they were under some kind of tent, because everyone seemed to be freezing. That would not help the sound. I have heard that version of the Gloria done in a very inspiring manner with a full choir and organ. It’s very powerful and very moving ot prayer. This was kind of weak. So I’ll credit that to the surrounding and the sound system.
But I must notice that everyone seemed very devout and very reverent. I heard that the liturgy was put together by the Franciscans of the the Reform along with a group of musicians from the Blue Army. Fr. Andrew Apostoli, the main celebrant, approved it. I don’t have this in writing. I had heard this through the Franciscan grapevine… Being as I’ve been in the hospital for almost a week, I can’t tell for you sure if my grapevine is accurate. I have not spoken to my friar friends in NY. We get to email once or twice a month. They have only one computer and we have only two and we’er 1500 miles away. Oh well, if I make it through this ordeal at the hospital I’ll find out the rest of the story.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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pnewton
Guest
No one has forgotten or denied that the organ holds the place of pride in liturgy. I think it is wonderful that one can have organ music at a wedding. This assumes one can find an organist and has the money to pay for one. Not all Church’s have organists as member or can afford the funds to pay for them at the multiple weekly Masses.
People also need to dress approrpiately for Mass, but at a wedding it is easier to drop a grand on a single dress.
Nothing is wrong with this and this must always be our goal. However, as with all human endeavors, the hightest must be, the highest we can offer and is available. The practical reality is that the best we can do is often the best we can do. I have you all hold me accountable that if I ever move to a parish that has an organist and a pipe organ, I will find another way to contribute to the parish and with joy drop out music, at least during Mass.
On the other hand, maybe I wouldn’t be too old to take organ lessons.
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pnewton
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You realize I am sure that an organist must also focus somewhat on the music they are playing and the order of Mass.
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Indyann
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Cat
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FAB
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when ever I read these threads, it’s always we need the organ to recapture the beauty anf magesty of the mass. Beside the fact that organs or very espensive, and a good organist is as hard to find as hens teeth, that wououold miss the point.
In the past two weeks I had the honor the serve and assisit my bishop in two celebrations of the Eucharist. the first was in our cathedral, there was the choir and music, the incense and all the grandure, certanly a beautiful and magestic mass. The second one was under the cover of an outdoor basket ball court, on a temporay stage with a folding table as the altar. The music was with a guitar and a keyboard and seven off key singers. This place would not have fit the definition the many want to place waht the celebration of the eucharist should be, but yet it had all the beauty and magesty of the catherdral mass. It was held for young men confined in a juvenille facilty. They have all broken the law and are spending thier time in locked up as they should, but this celebration of the euacharist, brought Jesus into thier lives, brought hope, brought comfort.
It’s not the music or appointments that give the mass it’s beauty and magesty, it is the presence of our savior, the participation in the sacrafice and being part of the body of Christ.
Peace,
FAB
In the past two weeks I had the honor the serve and assisit my bishop in two celebrations of the Eucharist. the first was in our cathedral, there was the choir and music, the incense and all the grandure, certanly a beautiful and magestic mass. The second one was under the cover of an outdoor basket ball court, on a temporay stage with a folding table as the altar. The music was with a guitar and a keyboard and seven off key singers. This place would not have fit the definition the many want to place waht the celebration of the eucharist should be, but yet it had all the beauty and magesty of the catherdral mass. It was held for young men confined in a juvenille facilty. They have all broken the law and are spending thier time in locked up as they should, but this celebration of the euacharist, brought Jesus into thier lives, brought hope, brought comfort.
It’s not the music or appointments that give the mass it’s beauty and magesty, it is the presence of our savior, the participation in the sacrafice and being part of the body of Christ.
Peace,
FAB
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sauce
Guest
What’s wrong with drums?
Too ethnic maybe?
“Pride of place”? Did they have organs in Hawaii or the Philipines when those islands were evangelized? Mmmmmmmm. Is the Church strictly classical? I don’t think so.
It had better be Christ centered.
Too ethnic maybe?
“Pride of place”? Did they have organs in Hawaii or the Philipines when those islands were evangelized? Mmmmmmmm. Is the Church strictly classical? I don’t think so.
It had better be Christ centered.
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