What do you think about guitars during mass?

[ibkc]

Why was the Vatican situated in a place of pagan Roman games? Why did Jesus let someone who denied Him lead the Church and one who persecuted the Church to spread the Gospel to the Gentiles? It is what we do. Polyphonic chant in the proper time can be taken from the realm of the forbidden secular and allowed in the liturgy. Cathedrals can be built on pagan sites and Holy Days placed on pagan holidays.

Yep. My exact point in a nutshell, stated much better than I was able to.

 

[Indyann]

Then, we go to the original instrument, the human voice. After all, that is how Ancient Israel prayed in song. They chanted the psalms.

You have posted this in this thread twice. Do you have any documentation to support your opinion?

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I think readers are entitled to correct information.

If you google " musical instruments in ancient Israel prayer", you will find most scholars are not in agreement. This is just one of the many articles on the subject.

our.homewithgod.com/schnuelle/SpecialA19990530.html

Now, if you have some opposing documentation, please provide. Thank you.

 

[benedictgal]

You have posted this in this thread twice. Do you have any documentation to support your opinion?

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I think readers are entitled to correct information.

If you google " musical instruments in ancient Israel prayer", you will find most scholars are not in agreement. This is just one of the many articles on the subject.

our.homewithgod.com/schnuelle/SpecialA19990530.html

Now, if you have some opposing documentation, please provide. Thank you.

Ancient Israel did not use any instrumentation during the sacrificial cultic worship they practiced. In fact, Deuteronomy spelled out in specific detail just how the sacrificial worship was to take place. What these scholars refer to is what was done outside the confines of the sacrificial worship.

Furthermore, the Church is the New Israel. Jesus is the fulfillment of the sacrifices mandated in Deuteronomy because they all pointed to Him. The psalms were chanted. If you read the accounts of the Last Supper, all of them note that Jesus and the remaining 11 sang a psalm of praise. Musical instruments were not mentioned.

Just because David refers to instruments in the psalms, that does not mean that they were used in the sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel. That is one distinction that I am afraid you and the proponents of guitars are missing.

Last fall, my parochial vicar, a very learned prelate who is also of the same mind as the Holy Father, taught us a course on the New Testament and we spent a lot of time focusing on the liturgy (in fact, we also studied the liturgy in Old Testament). He explained to us that we are the New Israel and we have appropriated some of the sacrificial practices of Ancient Israel. Obviously, we don’t use lambs and such, but, we use many of the things that they used, such as incense, gold vessels and vestments.

I also noticed that the source you quote from does have some Protestant leanings. The Bible used is Protestant and I believe that the site advertising in it is Protestant Evangelical. Thus, it is not even Catholic. Of course, they are not going to see things as the Church sees them, nor understand them as the Church understands them.

 

[Indyann]

Ancient Israel did not use any instrumentation during the sacrificial cultic worship they practiced. In fact, Deuteronomy spelled out in specific detail just how the sacrificial worship was to take place. What these scholars refer to is what was done outside the confines of the sacrificial worship.

Furthermore, the Church is the New Israel. Jesus is the fulfillment of the sacrifices mandated in Deuteronomy because they all pointed to Him. The psalms were chanted. If you read the accounts of the Last Supper, all of them note that Jesus and the remaining 11 sang a psalm of praise. Musical instruments were not mentioned.

Just because David refers to instruments in the psalms, that does not mean that they were used in the sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel. That is one distinction that I am afraid you and the proponents of guitars are missing.

Last fall, my parochial vicar, a very learned prelate who is also of the same mind as the Holy Father, taught us a course on the New Testament and we spent a lot of time focusing on the liturgy (in fact, we also studied the liturgy in Old Testament). He explained to us that we are the New Israel and we have appropriated some of the sacrificial practices of Ancient Israel. Obviously, we don’t use lambs and such, but, we use many of the things that they used, such as incense, gold vessels and vestments.

I also noticed that the source you quote does have some Protestant leanings. The Bible used is Protestant and I believe that the site advertising in it is Protestant Evangelical.

As I said, this is just one of many sources, I do not have time to read or check every one. The ones I did read did refer to instruments used in “sacrificial rites”, thus, I asked for opposing documentation. You seem to have a papal document for every issue in Catholicism, so I just thought you probaly had one for this also.

BTW, I am not a proponent of the guitar. If I had my druthers, it would be a violin.

I could be mistaken, but it seems you read a lot into what some posters say.

 

[benedictgal]

As I said, this is just one of many sources, I do not have time to read or check every one. The ones I did read did refer to instruments used in “sacrificial rites”, thus, I asked for opposing documentation. You seem to have a papal document for every issue in Catholicism, so I just thought you probaly had one for this also.

BTW, I am not a proponent of the guitar. If I had my druthers, it would be a violin.

I could be mistaken, but it seems you read a lot into what some posters say.

I understand that, but, the source that you happened to choose was Protestant. Natrually, they would be inclined to think that it would be a matter of anything goes. I trust my parochial vicar’s teaching on this particular matter, as he has gone through several seminars, including many with Dr. Scott Hahn. He is also a strong adherent to Pope Benedict’s beliefs on genuine sacred music.

 

[Sarabande]

Can anyone explain exactly why the organ was chosen to have “pride of place”?

From what I have read the precurser to today’s organ was played at the Roman circus when Christians were martyred, as well as when they had their “games”.

The only reason I can think of is because it is loud and could be heard throughout the large churches. And it is “traditional”.
And as we all know, the organ has been used in many secular settings. Silent movies, etc. and the “Giant Wurlitzer” that was the main draw of a local pizza restaurant.

Peraonally, a well played violin lifts my heart and mind to God immediately. The booming organ reminds me of the pizza place or a riverboat. So why did the Church choose the organ for “pride of place”?

This post 31 forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=369731&page=3might have been missed, in the scads of pages in the thread, but Benedict XVI had actually given the origins of what made the organ such an important instrument for the Church. The quote below is from another thread that I was part of regarding Benedict’s entire article/lecture “Church Music, a Spiritual and Intellectual Discipline”.

Here is the article: musicasacra.com/theological-problems/ The information on the origin of the organ for mass is between citations 16 and 18. I personally enjoyed the article, found it very informative, interesting, intellectual and you can definitely tell that Benedict (then Cardinal Ratzinger) knew his “stuff” and did a lot of research - more than most of us could or would be capable of doing.

The “cosmos” comment with how the organ became so prominent within the Church was very interesting and now totally makes sense to me. I did not know the reasons why organ was held so high, just that it was and then comments from those who weren’t really into organ saying it was originally a non-Christian instrument. The idea that the organ was considered the “combination of all the voices of the cosmos”. It was a way to show that the Church was truly superior to that of the Byzentine Emperor and to show the importance of “the cosmic rank of belief in Christ, which is independent of and indeed superior to politics”. So now, when one hears the organ (when it is played well – again this idea of practicality) one is hearing the voice of God, who is, in essence, the “combination of all the voices of the cosmos”.

 

[Indyann]

This post 31 forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=369731&page=3might have been missed, in the scads of pages in the thread, but Benedict XVI had actually given the origins of what made the organ such an important instrument for the Church. The quote below is from another thread that I was part of regarding Benedict’s entire article/lecture “Church Music, a Spiritual and Intellectual Discipline”.

Here is the article: musicasacra.com/theological-problems/ The information on the origin of the organ for mass is between citations 16 and 18. I personally enjoyed the article, found it very informative, interesting, intellectual and you can definitely tell that Benedict (then Cardinal Ratzinger) knew his “stuff” and did a lot of research - more than most of us could or would be capable of doing.

Thank you very much. This answers my question. I was never arguing against what the Popes said, I just wanted to know why.

 

[JReducation]

I don’t think that too many people are against the use of the organ in liturgy or its primacy in liturgical tradition. I just believe that we have to be careful how we proceed. We can come off very high handed. In charity, we also have to recognize the great effort that many Catholics around the world put into reverent liturgy using the resources that they hae available to them. Sometimes their resources are limited by finances and other times it is cultural. As I said in another post, the South African Poor Clares do not have an organ, but they have beautiful and reverent liturgy with the instruments that they have brought there from their North African monastery. To come down and tell them to drop those instruments and sing sole vocce, when they do praise God very profoundly with what they have, may do the opposite of what we want. It would be equal to telling these people that their worship is not adequate or pleasing enough to the Church or to God. This is not what our Holy Father had in mind when he wrote these statements. The popes don’t make these statements to make people feel inadequate, but to help those who can do better, if and when they can.

In charity, we must always help people grow toward greater beauty and love of God. But we must also be gentle in our manner and recognize the good that is there. I’m sure that the Poor Clare Nuns in Africa are not the only ones who are worshipping God in spirit and truth, without an organ. I saw beautiful liturgy when I was in the Amazon. The indigenous people did not have organs or Gregorian chant. They had Quichua and their traditional instruments, some dating back thousands of years. What I most appreciated about the indigenous people in the Amazon was the fact that their lyrics reflected the faith of the Church and the theology of the mass very well.

Let us teach with kindness and great patience.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Gertabelle]

I don’t think that too many people are against the use of the organ in liturgy or its primacy in liturgical tradition. I just believe that we have to be careful how we proceed. We can come off very high handed. In charity, we also have to recognize the great effort that many Catholics around the world put into reverent liturgy using the resources that they hae available to them. Sometimes their resources are limited by finances and other times it is cultural. As I said in another post, the South African Poor Clares do not have an organ, but they have beautiful and reverent liturgy with the instruments that they have brought there from their North African monastery. To come down and tell them to drop those instruments and sing sole vocce, when they do praise God very profoundly with what they have, may do the opposite of what we want. It would be equal to telling these people that their worship is not adequate or pleasing enough to the Church or to God. This is not what our Holy Father had in mind when he wrote these statements. The popes don’t make these statements to make people feel inadequate, but to help those who can do better, if and when they can.

In charity, we must always help people grow toward greater beauty and love of God. But we must also be gentle in our manner and recognize the good that is there. I’m sure that the Poor Clare Nuns in Africa are not the only ones who are worshipping God in spirit and truth, without an organ. I saw beautiful liturgy when I was in the Amazon. The indigenous people did not have organs or Gregorian chant. They had Quichua and their traditional instruments, some dating back thousands of years. What I most appreciated about the indigenous people in the Amazon was the fact that their lyrics reflected the faith of the Church and the theology of the mass very well.

Let us teach with kindness and great patience.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[Sarabande]

Thank you very much. This answers my question. I was never arguing against what the Popes said, I just wanted to know why.

No problem! I love history, so I was also thrilled to have found this info and learned more about the origins of how the organ became a sacred instrument. When it is played well and it is a good instrument, I can totally see and understand how it is viewed as a combination of the all the voices of the cosmos - something greater than anything earthly or at least what can be produced just on one instrument. There really isn’t any other instrument which can produce the power and similar beauty as a good organ and good organist. Although, when it is played horribly, it can sound like a little bit of the underworld, rather than the divine cosmos. haha!

 

[JReducation]

No problem! I love history, so I was also thrilled to have found this info and learned more about the origins of how the organ became a sacred instrument. When it is played well and it is a good instrument, I can totally see and understand how it is viewed as a combination of the all the voices of the cosmos - something greater than anything earthly or at least what can be produced just on one instrument. There really isn’t any other instrument which can produce the power and similar beauty as a good organ and good organist. Although, when it is played horribly, it can sound like a little bit of the underworld, rather than the divine cosmos. haha!

If anyone wants to see an organ dialogue, I would suggest that if you’re ever in Washington DC try to get to a solemn mass at the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception at Catholic University. I’ve only heard it during commencement, but it was something to behold. I graduated from Catholic University’s School of Theology, many many many years ago. At the graduation mass they played both organs.

They have two organs, one in the back and another about half-way down the main nave of the upper church. The two organists play in “dialogue”. I’m not an organist, so I don’t know the proper name for this. But you have two organs playing different parts of a piece, as if they were dialoguing. I’m sorrry. I know that liturgy is prayer, but this was also sheer cosmic entertainment. You just sat there in awe. I know that they do this for the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception, big events and for the commencement of Catholic University.

It may be available on CD from their book store.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[graciesuico]

I wonder if Jesus would judge those who use the guitar during the Mass. Do we know what is in the heart of the person? Do we know what is their motivation; for us to say and demand that organ is the only appropriate instrument for the celebration of the Holy Eucharist.Many posted that its a secular and to the point it seems to me that the only instrument you can use is organ only. What about those who cannot afford to buy organ those poor mission church especially in Asia or in Africa.

Is it really important to have organ or rather to have the a Eucharistic celebration even if ended up using the guitar and play accordingly. Is it secular ? to use guitar or any other instrument? Is the person commiting a sin if he or she does play guitar during the Mass…What is really important for us? Why do we judge those who wanted to serve the Lord by doing and leading the people to worship. I hope we consider that before we say it is a secular.Is it secular?

 

[rguntner]

The Catholic Church is supposed to be a “Universal” church. I have read all of the liturgical reasons why the Organ is the ultimate instrumental choice by the Church for worship at Mass and I can see the validity of this rational. However, it is a very Eurocentric view in my opinion and doesn’t encompass the spirit of universality in our faith. In other words, your cultural bias is showing!

 

[benedictgal]

The Catholic Church is supposed to be a “Universal” church. I have read all of the liturgical reasons why the Organ is the ultimate instrumental choice by the Church for worship at Mass and I can see the validity of this rational. However, it is a very Eurocentric view in my opinion and doesn’t encompass the spirit of universality in our faith. In other words, your cultural bias is showing!

Not necessarily. Before people start throwing in the cultural card, the Church has provisions for the **legitimate ** use of inculturation to allow indigenous faithful of the missionary territories to use their own particular means. JREducation used that example in many of his posts; however, this is inculturation and should be taken as such.

The organ has held pride of place for centuries. In fact, it is the only instrument specifically mentioned in the authoritative documents of the Church. The guitar, to my knowledge, has not been mentioned.

 

[ac_claire]

I wonder if Jesus would judge those who use the guitar during the Mass. Do we know what is in the heart of the person? Do we know what is their motivation; for us to say and demand that organ is the only appropriate instrument for the celebration of the Holy Eucharist.Many posted that its a secular and to the point it seems to me that the only instrument you can use is organ only. What about those who cannot afford to buy organ those poor mission church especially in Asia or in Africa.

Is it really important to have organ or rather to have the a Eucharistic celebration even if ended up using the guitar and play accordingly. Is it secular ? to use guitar or any other instrument? Is the person commiting a sin if he or she does play guitar during the Mass…What is really important for us? Why do we judge those who wanted to serve the Lord by doing and leading the people to worship. I hope we consider that before we say it is a secular.Is it secular?

Who said anything about judging those who use guitar music for Mass? This thread has nothing to do with making personal judgements about people.

 

[FAB]

Not necessarily. Before people start throwing in the cultural card, the Church has provisions for the **legitimate ** use of inculturation to allow indigenous faithful of the missionary territories to use their own particular means. JREducation used that example in many of his posts; however, this is inculturation and should be taken as such.

The organ has held pride of place for centuries. In fact, it is the only instrument specifically mentioned in the authoritative documents of the Church. The guitar, to my knowledge, has not been mentioned.

Actually it was the Jesuits that realized the best way to evangelize and bring people to Jesus was to meet them were they are at, in culture and in music. That was a few
hundred years ago. As with many things it took the church some time to get out of its Euopean thinking and finally realized that wisdom,
People still need to be brought to Jesus in the same way, by first meeting them were thay are at weather in some 3rd world mission or in the middle of the states. This idea that one size fits all, i.e. organ music only, cannot achieve this idea.

Since I play the guitar, and play it in the liturgy, I know it’s ability to provide sacrate music as well as it’s limitations. I can understand the objections if it is not used properly, if it overwhelms the voices. But if in the backround and used to compliment the voice, it is very effective.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Breviarylover]

Pianos, guitars, and drums aren’t reverent for Holy Mass!

 

[Breviarylover]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=67586

Question:

Our parish is planning on having a polka band for the fall festival. Our pastor thought it would be a good idea to have them play at the Masses on Sunday. I have serious reservations about this. I could not find parameters for litugical music in either the GIRM or Redemptionis Sacramentum. What is your opinion?

Answer:

To judge the appropriateness of a Polka Mass (or “Clown” Mass), one should simply gaze at a crucifix and ask the question: Could I do this at the foot of Golgotha?

Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum says the following on Polka Masses:

“This (the Holy Mass) is the Church’s greatest offering to God and any addition to the Mass itself – such as “Polka,” “Clown,” “Disco” (yes, there have been cases) or any similar extraneous element – reduces its scope and attempts to press it into service for some cause other than the worship of God”. He goes on to say that “music usually associated with dancing or other profane activities (at least in a Western context) should not be admitted into the Mass.”
Source

“Not every kind of music can have a place in Christian worship.”
Pope Benedict XVI

Below are a few Church guidelines for suitable liturgical music:

1. Music at Mass (especially Sunday) should “be true and suitable sacred music”. Musicae sacrae disciplina

1. Keep anything profane and alien to divine worship from creeping into sacred music and corrupting it. (ibid)

1. Instruments for divine worship must be suitable for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful. Sacrosanctum Concilium

1. “….music used for sacred rites must have sanctity as its point of reference….not all musical forms are appropriate for liturgical celebrations.” Apostolic letter on the liturgy

1. Avoid any concession to frivolity and superficiality. (ibid)

1. The sacred environment of liturgical celebration must never become a laboratory for experimentation or trial compositions and performances. (ibid)

1. Respect liturgical norms. “Lack of respect for the liturgical norms can sometimes even lead to grave forms of abuse that obscure the truth of the mystery and give rise to dismay and stress in the People of God.” Spiritus et Sponsa

1. “Holy Mass must be…celebrated in a dignified manner….and…singing and liturgical music be suitably “sacred”.
   Mane Nobiscum Domine

Further reading:

Pope Benedict XVI on sacred music

God bless you!

 

[rguntner]

Not necessarily. Before people start throwing in the cultural card, the Church has provisions for the **legitimate ** use of inculturation to allow indigenous faithful of the missionary territories to use their own particular means. JREducation used that example in many of his posts; however, this is inculturation and should be taken as such.

The organ has held pride of place for centuries. In fact, it is the only instrument specifically mentioned in the authoritative documents of the Church. The guitar, to my knowledge, has not been mentioned.

The pipe organ wasn’t sationed by the Church until Pope Vitalian authorized its use in the 7th century. Pipe organs was being used in churches at least a century before that. Guitars have only been used in Mass for the past 40 years.I’m sure that in time “authoratative documents” will appear on this instument as well.

 

[benedictgal]

The pipe organ wasn’t sationed by the Church until Pope Vitalian authorized its use in the 7th century. Pipe organs was being used in churches at least a century before that. Guitars have only been used in Mass for the past 40 years.I’m sure that in time “authoratative documents” will appear on this instument as well.

Musicam Sacram would have mentioned it outright from the very beginning, ,but, it did not. In fact, Pope Benedict XVI makes no mention of the guitar in any of his writings, only the organ. In fact, when he blessed a new organ for use at a German Cathedral (during his visit to Bavaria as pope), he extolled the praises of the organ and its use for Mass.

The organ, as you have noted, has, at the very least, 14 centuries of use behind it.