What do you think about guitars during mass?

[Cat]

Layman, you didn’t answer my question. Have you tried it? Have you heard it?

Organ sounds on synthesisers are awful. You would be waaaay better off with a quality acoustic piano than “organ” sounds out of synthesiser. I have always refused to do this. Viscount was selling a portable keyboard that had the same sound generation as its electronic classical organs and to make it even half-feasible you would need to get hold of something like that, and they’re not common.

If you heard organ sounds out of a synthesiser, especially with strings mixed in, even from a good player, I think you would run screaming.

And again, you are mixing up arguments. I do not play pop hymns on guitar. I learned a little bit about chant from my father and a lot more from my early music interests. In my parish you will hear the guitarist promoting traditional hymns and working on re-introducing chant and you will hear the organists playing the pop hymns.

Not everyone has a pipe organ. It’s been said over and over. Hopefully in future this situation will improve, and many of us are working towards that. For the moment, reality is what it is and we work with it week-in, week-out.

Boy, do I ever agree with this! Clavinova is not, never has been, and probably never will be, an organ. There is a totally different fingering technique that must be used to make a keyboard sound like an organ, and most of us who play piano or keyboard just don’t have any skill at this technique. We sound gagsome when we try to make a Clavinova sound like an organ, and that’s a nice word.

 

[agapewolf]

Boy, do I ever agree with this! Clavinova is not, never has been, and probably never will be, an organ. There is a totally different fingering technique that must be used to make a keyboard sound like an organ, and most of us who play piano or keyboard just don’t have any skill at this technique. We sound gagsome when we try to make a Clavinova sound like an organ, and that’s a nice word.

And organists who attempt to play piano make that sound “gagsome” (love the word).

 

[eucharisteo]

I still hold to the tradition of having NO instruments in the mass. Acapella is what we should do to avoid this altogether. It’s not that instruments are bad it’s just silly to say a guitar is less noble for the mass than an organ. In the first several centuries of the mass organ’s for not used either. They conjured up fear in Christians because that is what the government played while executing Christians during the ceremonial killings as part of their intertainment. I learned this in a Musica/Art upper level course in a secular college. It was very interesting. The book also noted that the average age was 100 during the times of Moses as well, which is interesting. I guess they used bones to determine this. Don’t know.

 

[Gertabelle]

But wait a minute. The fact that people raise their voice in song, raise their arms, etc, does not mean that they are not adoring God, which is what we do at mass.

Also, don’t limit the mass to the Eucharist. The mass is both Word and Sacrament. Both are equally important. It is praise and thanksgiving for the the act of redemption. We have to be very careful not to make others feel as if they are not worshiping properly because they raise their voices and hands at mass. That would be very uncharitable.

It is true that proper worship is not about emotions alone. But the senses and the emotions are certainly part of the contemplative experience. Just ask any monk or contemplative nun. As the saints. Many saints did some very strange things at mass. I’m trying to remember who it was that would levitate off the floor during the consecration. Saints have written with a great deal of emotion about their experience at mass.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks for your thoughts. Guess I shouldn’t post late at night because my words are not connected with my heart at that hour. And just FYI, I was a contemplative nun, so I’m well aware of the role of the senses and the emotions in all forms of prayer, including the Mass, as well as the history Saints having levitational ecstasies, as well as bone dryness during prayer. But I suppose I needed the lecture.

I still hold to the tradition of having NO instruments in the mass. Acapella is what we should do to avoid this altogether.

After the organ playing this morning at mass, I couldn’t agree more that we need to go back to acapella music. That dear old woman (the organist) has received more of my prayers during the mass than just about anyone else My son asked me not play the piano at our new parish so I could just sit with him in the pew. But I think we need to have a conversation about sharing our time and talents (and moms) with the Church. There is definitely a need in this parish…

Gertie

 

[Cat]

Thanks for your thoughts. Guess I shouldn’t post late at night because my words are not connected with my heart at that hour. And just FYI, I was a contemplative nun, so I’m well aware of the role of the senses and the emotions in all forms of prayer, including the Mass, as well as the history Saints having levitational ecstasies, as well as bone dryness during prayer. But I suppose I needed the lecture.

After the organ playing this morning at mass, I couldn’t agree more that we need to go back to acapella music. That dear old woman (the organist) has received more of my prayers during the mass than just about anyone else My son asked me not play the piano at our new parish so I could just sit with him in the pew. But I think we need to have a conversation about sharing our time and talents (and moms) with the Church. There is definitely a need in this parish…

Gertie

Gertie, please don’t take this post as a criticism of you or your posts. I sense from your tone that you are not being maliciously critical towards instrumentalists who play at Mass. I sense that you are quite kind and loving.

But I often sense on these forums that others are hypercritical.

And I think this is wrong for Christians.

I became Catholic in 2004, after a lifetime of Protestantism where I was taught that I didn’t have to do a thing to get to heaven–Jesus would get me there no matter what I did or didn’t do.

Well, that all changed after becoming Catholic. What I’ve heard and read over and over again is that the important thing is that we TRY our best.

And I think this is true for musicians as well. Very few people, me included, are excellent musicians. (I would describe myself as competent and enjoyable to listen to, and an excellent accompanist.)

But if someone is willing to say, “Yes” to Father’s request for musicians, then that’s fine. Who are we to criticize?

Maybe I’ve picked up this theology from The Little Drummer Boy and if it’s wrong, I apologize to God. But I don’t think God expects all of his musicians to be wondrous–if so, He would have created us that way. I think he expects us to “play our best for Him, pa rumpa pum pum.”

BTW, one of the reasons why I am becoming quite disgusted with Protestant church music (evangelical) is that it seems that more and more of the megachurches are requiring musicians to audition before singing in the choir or playing an instrument. I can certainly see requiring some degree of proficiency, but church is not theater. My sister-in-law was turned away when she brought her four-year-old son to participate in the megachurch Christmas pageant–she was told that children must have prior theater experience and a portfolio before participating in their productions. I hope that the Catholic Church doesn’t get to this point–I think that every musician has something to offer.

 

[MarysGirls]

I will agree with you that we truly can learn from those who are not Catholic. One thing we need to learn is that idea that music in Mass is supposed to corporate, not performance, whether the performance is from the “band” or a Gregorian choir. But we must also discern that which is appropriate and that which is not. Because of the same corporate nature of worship, our posture is specifically directed to be uniform. Nothing during Mass is just “me and Jesus.” Mass is Jesus and His Church.

I agree with everything else you’ve said. But could you please explain the emphasized statement?

As for the “me and Jesus” I did not mean to suggest such… sorry can’t think of the word… aloneness will have to do. But there is unity in the diversity of the Church. I don’t think everything should be lax but if someone’s worship is slightly different than ours, what’s the big deal as long as they are worshiping the LORD?

 

[MarysGirls]

However, the problem is that a lot of the modern compositions used for Mass really are not fitting. If you read through 48 or so pages in this thread, you will note that even the bishops have noted some problems with the music and these were listed by the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist. Pope Benedict, in response to these concerns, noted that certainly as far as the Mass is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Unfortunately, a lot of the questionable stuff was composed with only the guitar in mind.

The sad part in all of this is that the publishing houses continue to push bad music for the Mass. They also seem to compose music meant for only the guitar, so the publishers themselves, perpetuate all of this.

Yes, sadly that is true. But hey, why reject all guitar music because of some bad music???

 

[MarysGirls]

Well, that sounds nice, in theory. In practice:

1940: Pipe organ with male choir singing chant.
2009: Guitar with solo female singer singing pop hymns.

The latter might be tolerable if the former was widely available. But it ain’t.

As my father said to me, when I dared to wear a jazzy tie to a wedding: “Son, a wedding is a solemn occasion”. Mass is a propitiatory and supplicatory rite of a possibly-vengeful God. It’s serious business. I read online recently that the modern Church has been intent on skipping Easter and heading straight for Pentecost. I think that’s about right.

One of the things I like about the TLM is that it’s quiet, solemn and ‘bigger’ than the personalities of all involved. No bawling out (or droning) the hymns, no clapping or look-at-your-neighbour-in-the-sanctuary. Everyone face forward, doing their best not to be distracting, willing the thing on. Terrific.

I see your point. But there is a time for everything. I don’t think pop hymms should be sung during the consecration, but for entrance and exit, why not? I’m not suggesting we skip Easter and go straight to Pentacost, but rather we abandon ourselves to the joy of Easter and Pentacost. Sometimes that involves becoming undignified. Good grief, David danced out of joy so much his clothes fell off! And while I don’t think that should be done any time soon, it’s the principle of the thing.

 

[MarysGirls]

The problem is that what the Protestant ecclesial communities are doing and what the Church does are two entirely different things altogether. The Mass is not some “me and Jesus” in the corner experience.

The Church is a corporate being. By corporate, I do not mean corporation in the business sense of the word. Our worship, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, involves the Body of Christ, the entire Church in union with the Saints in heaven and the souls in purgatory and the angels, uniting our prayer with that of the celebrant, who acts in persona Christi.

The Church has her standards of worship, specifically for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. When we try to insert our personal idiosyncracies into the Holy Sacrifice, we have missed the point completely. We have misunderstood why we are there.

The Protestants only have the reading of the Word, a sermon and songs thrown in for good measure. That is what their service consists of for the most part. The Church as both the Word and the Sacrifice of Jesus. Week in and week out (or, in many cases for a lot of us, day in and day out), the veil between time and space and heaven and earth is lifted and we are there at Calvary. We are just as much there as were the Blessed Mother and Sts. John and Mary Magdalene. We are there in the upper room as were the 11. We are there at the empty tomb with the angels.

If we want to go for sheer emotionalism, then we have really missed the point as to why we are at Mass in the first place.

As I said, I did not mean to suggest that the Mass is a “me and Jesus in the corner” experience. I guess I didn’t word it very well and I sincerely apologize. I guess the idea I had in mind was more the Church, made up of diverse individuals, worshiping with diversity, and yet unified by the ONE they are worshiping. Does that make more sense?

Believe me, I know that the Mass goes far deeper than mere emotions. I was speaking rather of a joy so deep it spills out into your emotions. This doesn’t always happen and people shouldn’t feel bad when it doesn’t. But when it does, please don’t knock it!

 

[MarysGirls]

The Mass is not a worship service, per se. It is called the Holy Sacrifce of the Mass for a reason – because the bread and wine because the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus. As benedictgal points out, we who participate at mass are truly participating in the mystery of the last supper, the crucifixion, and the resurrection.

I also love to raise my hands, sing my heart out, be in a room full of people doing the same – but not at Mass. Singing like that focuses my mind on my emotions, my experience, how much I’m enjoying the whole thing (I love a good concert).

There is a time and place for jumping up and down, holding hands and swaying, raising our voices loud and full out. But the Mass is about joining Christ in the moment of His passion, death, and resurrection. This is not just singing about being there. The Mass is about being there.

Gertie

Out of all the other posts, yours got me thinking the most. And I almost agree with you. However, the Christ gave me a stubborn nature so I hope you’ll forgive me when I put it to use.
The Mass is mainly about the Eucharist, receiving Him and joining Him. So I think the songs during Communion should be mainly solemn. But the Mass is also a celebration. At a wedding, everyone is solemn during the vows and such, but afterwards there is (hopefully) great rejoicing. I think that’s how the Mass should be. Solemn during the Eucharist, but in coming and going, great rejoicing. Maybe during the offertory too.

And one thing some of you seem to be forgeting, just because the music is contemporary, that doesn’t mean it’s all happy. There are solemn, sad, and (to me) awe-inspiring songs too.

 

[pnewton]

I agree with everything else you’ve said. But could you please explain the emphasized statement?

Excellent question!

From the GIRM:

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect2

… attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A** common** posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

With a view to a** uniformity in gestures and postures** during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.

Read the whole section and you start to see why the Church does what She does and not just what.

 

[MarysGirls]

Excellent question!

From the GIRM:

usccb.org/liturgy/current/chapter2.shtml#sect2

Read the whole section and you start to see why the Church does what She does and not just what.

Thank you!

As I’ve been saying in other posts, the Church is unified by the One being worshiped, not by the manner in which we are worshiping.

 

[pnewton]

Thank you!

As I’ve been saying in other posts, the Church is unified by the One being worshiped, not by the manner in which we are worshiping.

We are unified by both. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Layman]

I’m not suggesting we skip Easter and go straight to Pentacost, but rather we abandon ourselves to the joy of Easter and Pentacost. Sometimes that involves becoming undignified. Good grief, David danced out of joy so much his clothes fell off! And while I don’t think that should be done any time soon, it’s the principle of the thing.

Absolutely not.

If you want to abandon yourself, go to a pop concert. David is to liturgical dancing as St. Cyril is to Communion in the hand; narrow shoulders upon which the building of a great edifice of innovation has been attempted.

I detest the happy-clappy element introduced into our Mass. It’s contradictory; a solemn sacrificial rite which has become more and more personalised and sentimental over the decades since Vatican II.

Emotionalism in religion is suspect. I associate it with Protestantism, Voodoo and Pop; whip yourself into a lather, [put yer dollars on the plate], then go home feeling refreshed and thinking you’ve accomplished something.

I can’t think of any Saint or church authority that recommended it. I can vaguely recall there being popular cults of frenzy in the past; they got popular, caused scandal and then stopped.

 

[bcra]

i feel it makes no difference what musical instrument. i think God knows why your here in church. God bless you all guitar players or any musical instrument as long as the music is of Our Lord. amen

 

[Gertabelle]

Well, that all changed after becoming Catholic. What I’ve heard and read over and over again is that the important thing is that we TRY our best.

And I think this is true for musicians as well. Very few people, me included, are excellent musicians. (I would describe myself as competent and enjoyable to listen to, and an excellent accompanist.)

But if someone is willing to say, “Yes” to Father’s request for musicians, then that’s fine. Who are we to criticize?

I couldn’t agree with you more, and thanks for your kind and loving post.

I don’t mean to be hypercritical of this elderly woman playing the organ. But there is a difference between playing a few wrong notes (or in the wrong key, as I’ve done on countless introductions) and not being able to play the songs at all. This morning, it was nearly impossible for anyone to sing the opening hymn (even the cantor struggled) because the organist just couldn’t play it at all. To make it worse, she played music before mass that just sounded like someone leaning on the keys. I think God is getting even with me for all the mistakes I’ve made, and He’s making me hear all of them, note for note, until I’ve made musical reparations for the pains and distractions I’ve caused at mass over the years.

It’s not so much that I want to “oust” this woman, but simply offer my piano-playing or singing abilities for my new parish that has demonstrated some to a lot of need in music at every mass I’ve attended.

As for my own playing, it’s usually OK, but never brilliant. I only try to keep the beat, play the melody well, and avoid the sort of mistakes that draw attention to the piano. And I avoid the organ except for a couple Christmas hymns each year.

And yes, let’s just keep offering our gifts to the Lord as He shows us the need.

Gertie

 

[Gertabelle]

Out of all the other posts, yours got me thinking the most. And I almost agree with you. However, the Christ gave me a stubborn nature so I hope you’ll forgive me when I put it to use.
The Mass is mainly about the Eucharist, receiving Him and joining Him. So I think the songs during Communion should be mainly solemn. But the Mass is also a celebration. At a wedding, everyone is solemn during the vows and such, but afterwards there is (hopefully) great rejoicing. I think that’s how the Mass should be. Solemn during the Eucharist, but in coming and going, great rejoicing. Maybe during the offertory too.

Well put, and I sit corrected. Today being the Solemnity of All Saints, I sang out loud and proud (or at least tried) on the opening and closing hymns. I agree that the opening and closing songs are well-suited for rejoicing with lively tunes, though that’s not necessary. Personally, I hate clapping at church, though you couldn’t hold me back in a concert setting

In the end, let’s just keep our hearts focused on Christ and not worry about these things so much. If you raise your hands in Mass, I will thank God for how He is working in your life. And if I fold my hands and bow my head while I sing, perhaps you will thank God for how He is working in my life.

In the end, it’s all about faith, so let’s (all of us) just have some in each other as well

Gertie

 

[benedictgal]

I see your point. But there is a time for everything. I don’t think pop hymms should be sung during the consecration, but for entrance and exit, why not? I’m not suggesting we skip Easter and go straight to Pentacost, but rather we abandon ourselves to the joy of Easter and Pentacost. Sometimes that involves becoming undignified. Good grief, David danced out of joy so much his clothes fell off! And while I don’t think that should be done any time soon, it’s the principle of the thing.

But, I believe that we are taking what David did completelly out of context. David’s dancing was not part of the Sacrificial worship of Ancient Israel (which prefigures the Sacrifice of the True Lamb of God, and its perpetual Holy Sacrifice of the Mass). Every time someone makes mention of what David did to justify any abnormality in the Mass, it’s as though we have completely lost sight of why we are at Mass. The true principle of the Mass is not some do your own thing, but, it is worshipping as the Church mandates, in union with her and through her.

True, there is legitimate cultural diversity. The examples that JREducation brings up are truly applicable for that particular missionary community because they are right in the heart of indigenous territories.

Furthermore, at Mass, we are not just living out Easter. It is the entire Paschal Mystery. Mary, we cannot have Easter without the Last Supper and Good Friday and we cannot have Good Friday without the Last Supper and Easter. All three form components of the One.

 

[CrackerJackie]

I attended a parish for 9 years where the organist was just awful. All she did was played chords. She played everything like a dirge…veeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyy sssssssssssssslllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwww. A very good friend sang with this particular organist. One evening, my friend sang Ave Maria a capella. I almost cried, she sounded so beautiful. After a cross-country move, I’m attending a parish where the guitar is used almost every Saturday evening. This guitarist is heads and shoulders above the organist in my previous parish! Sometimes there is a tambourine, but I don’t dig it. I find it distracting.
As a youth and college student, I would attend Midnight Mass for Christmas in a nearby community. The church is enormous, beautiful, and has very good acoustics. When the trumpets played throughout the Mass, those were among the most beautiful sounds I ever heard. Although the population in that town is less than 1200, every Midnight Mass was SRO, I’d guess more than 3000 people in attendance.
I guess this is a long-winded way of saying that I do not care what instruments are used, or even if any are present, as long as the hymns are reverent and do not distract from the Mass itself.

 

[Holland]

I haven’t read any of the posts and will just answer the question. Very few of the churches in our Diocese have organs and if they do, having someone available to play isn’t always in the cards. In the local church, near my home we have a couple of women who play the guitar and sing. They do a wonderful job of getting the congregation to sing the hyms during Mass, which is very important. I am always thankful when they are available to play. In some churches, if it weren’t for the guitars there would be no music at all.