C
CheesusPowerKid
Guest
I love HP to death. I’ll be one of the people standing in line at midnight…with a cape, glasses, scar, wand, the works…yeah, I’ll definitely be there
- Status
D
deb1
Guest
john ennis:
Forgetting the Evil/Wizardry issue…
Just as in real life, it depends on the individual adult. SOme adults are bad, some are good. Traditional authority figures such as Dumledoore and The Weaslys seem to be getting wiser as the story progresses. Mrs. Weasly is very open to loving and worrying about Harry. ALso, in the last book, Harry is indirectly responsible for his guardian’s death, because he(Harry) didn’t listen to Dumbledore’s warnings.
- I may have the wrong impression, but how do traditional authority figures fare in Harry Potter? Is it a fair take, if you get the impression that it’s best not to trust elders whom God has put in your life?
Same answer as above, some are good, some are bad. Hermione’s parents are good. Harry’s foster parents are evil.THe wizards who are prejudiced against nonmagical people are considered wicked. The majority of the story takes place in the magical world or Hogwarts, so you read more of wizards
- Is there a sort of bigotry at work in the stories: Of all the people in them who don’t believe in magic, are many of them good or sympathetic? Are any of them?
Hard for me to say. Could you give me an example of triumphant indulgance in magic? I might just be naturally dense, because I am uncertain what you mean.
- Is the magic in Harry Potter of the same flavor as say, The Wizard of Oz? Some say it’s no worse. Which one, though, is a sort of triumphant indulgance in magic?
Peace.
John
P
Pax2u
Guest
Honestly, had I grown up with the above works instead of “Book Trails- Through the Wildwood, The Highroad to Adventure, and Through Enchanted Lands”, none of which are published anymore, but all of which contain old fairy tails from all time periods, I would not be an aspiring writer.
Heh, I remember Book Trails–and I still have them! My grandkids LOVE them. My granddaughter, who is 8, also loves the Harry Potter books, and having read them myself I find no harm and lots of amusement in them. As some others have said, if my child had difficulty distinguishing between fantasy and reality, I would steer them clear of these and many other kinds of books…but that isn’t the case with my granddaughter.
Heh, I remember Book Trails–and I still have them! My grandkids LOVE them. My granddaughter, who is 8, also loves the Harry Potter books, and having read them myself I find no harm and lots of amusement in them. As some others have said, if my child had difficulty distinguishing between fantasy and reality, I would steer them clear of these and many other kinds of books…but that isn’t the case with my granddaughter.
S
ShroudMan
Guest
What… a highly successful author who pulled herself out of poverty and the govt welfare system by writing one of the all time best selling series of childrens’ books ever?Of course Harry Potter is evil. JK Rolling is one of THEM!
If shes “one of them”… I pray for such a life. If thats “evil” bring it on.
J
john_ennis
Guest
Responding to deb1:
Deb, regarding a sort of “triumphant indulgence” in magic, I meant that, as contrasted with the way magic occurred through certain peripheral characters in Wizard of Oz, isn’t it celebrated in Harry Potter?
That’s not necessarily an indictment of the series, but a response to the typical criticism of people who are concerned about magic in Harry Potter, and they’re told, “Oh, c’mon! Who ever worried about all those fairy tales we were told as kids, and stuff like The Wizard of Oz?”
I think there is a difference, and that people raising their kids cannot be objectively judged as wrong for preventing their kids from beginning to value a power that is not God-centered. They know that the literature that their growing children are consuming will indeed affect the things that they value, and the things that they spurn.
Peace.
John
S
Shiann
Guest
john ennis said:
I think this is a false debate on these forums. I see parents, and others who are on each side of the issue, defending their choices for their kids and for themselves. The debate is whether or not HP is full of occult or is just fantasy.
When the debate turns to a more personal level- our own judgment, or our parenting skills, that’s when the false debate emerges… Parents defend their parenting skills first- THEN provide evidence for why HP is the way they think it is… (if they provide any evidence at all).
The reality is, in the false or secondary debate, it doesn’t seem to be the “no HP” crowd trying to defend their position- it’s in fact the reverse- the “pro HP” folks defending their position.
You claim the no-HP side is being “judged as wrong” for preventing their children from reading/watching HP. I do not recall in any serious debate, ever reading that comment or one like it. In fact, I have defended EVERY parent’s right to do what they feel is right by their children and censor ANY piece of literature they feel they need to. I censor items myself and would be hypocritical if I didn’t uphold the same right for other parents. Further, I believe that every serious commenter in this debate, on the pro-HP position, would say the same.
(Obviously there are hit-and-run posters who offer their big brash comments without seriously substantiating them.)
But the right or desire to have HP a part of your kid’s lives isn’t the issue. The issue IS “what do you think about HP”. If you believe it is full of occult practices, you get to provide evidence for that. I on the other hand get to provide evidence that it is purely fantasy.
“They know that the literature that their growing children are consuming will indeed affect the things that they value, and the things that they spurn.”
Well Duh!
Hopefully every parent worth their weight will know this- and practice it. But your insinuation here, is that by allowing children to read HP, parents are somehow are obstructing their children’s development in things they value and things they spurn.
Again, I appreciate your oppinion here, and it is quite true philisophically speaking- but not the point of debate here.
So WHY do you think HP obstructs development in things of value and things worthy of spurning?
M
Melissa
Guest
Indeed–I know no parents who allow their children to read the HP novels who believe that all children ought to read the books and that other parents are wrong for disallowing the novels provided that the “no HP” parents respect the “yes HP” parents’ right to decide to allow those books for their children .
However, my experience has been in fact that those parents who are “no HP” do not respect the difference of opinion–it’s ‘I’m on the moral high ground and you’re putting your child on the path to hell’. So yes, I may become somewhat strident in my defense of the novels, but I have never said that one must read them, but if one is to be critical of their content, I expect that person to read the books fairly (not with the agenda that might be summarized: “ooh, she wrote the word ‘witch’, witchcraft is evil, see here are the quotes from the Bible and the CCC”).
In short, this is an issue upon which there is no need to form consensus, but it would be nice if the ‘no HP’ crowd didn’t try to convert the ‘yes HP’ crowd, because it feels like they’d be happy only if I said “Oh, I’ve seen the light, I’ll get rid of the books”. And that is not going to happen. I’d be happy if those who didn’t care for the novels didn’t continually ride this hobbyhorse of condemning them for everyone.
However, my experience has been in fact that those parents who are “no HP” do not respect the difference of opinion–it’s ‘I’m on the moral high ground and you’re putting your child on the path to hell’. So yes, I may become somewhat strident in my defense of the novels, but I have never said that one must read them, but if one is to be critical of their content, I expect that person to read the books fairly (not with the agenda that might be summarized: “ooh, she wrote the word ‘witch’, witchcraft is evil, see here are the quotes from the Bible and the CCC”).
In short, this is an issue upon which there is no need to form consensus, but it would be nice if the ‘no HP’ crowd didn’t try to convert the ‘yes HP’ crowd, because it feels like they’d be happy only if I said “Oh, I’ve seen the light, I’ll get rid of the books”. And that is not going to happen. I’d be happy if those who didn’t care for the novels didn’t continually ride this hobbyhorse of condemning them for everyone.
F
Fashina86
Guest
As I always say on this kind of post… as long as the children can tell the differnt between the realities of magic vs the truth of Faith… then I have no problem.
C
Cathy
Guest
L
Lost_Found
Guest
I strongly disagree with the majority. The HP books are evil, or at the least a flirt with something evil.
Just because the effects aren’t yet seen doesn’t mean nothing will ever result. Evil never fully manifests itself at the start; it just introduces an idea innocently, as in, “no, the others are wrong, this is different but fun.” All of the evils of today’s society started innocently enough; that’s why they weren’t nipped in the bud.
We read that Charles Dickens has greatly defined our modern Christmas. That was from a high selling book a hundred and fifty years ago. So I cringe to think of the value system these demonic HP books will eventually establish as status quo. Give it twenty, thirty years -only then we’ll see who’s right on this.
Just because the effects aren’t yet seen doesn’t mean nothing will ever result. Evil never fully manifests itself at the start; it just introduces an idea innocently, as in, “no, the others are wrong, this is different but fun.” All of the evils of today’s society started innocently enough; that’s why they weren’t nipped in the bud.
We read that Charles Dickens has greatly defined our modern Christmas. That was from a high selling book a hundred and fifty years ago. So I cringe to think of the value system these demonic HP books will eventually establish as status quo. Give it twenty, thirty years -only then we’ll see who’s right on this.
V
viktor_aleksndr
Guest
Better than Da Vinci code!
the best book ever after catholic books and the Bible!
the best book ever after catholic books and the Bible!
L
Lost_Found
Guest
viktor aleksndr:
That’s a very powerful feeling. You all sound possessed!
J
john_ennis
Guest
Well.
First of all, “What do you think of Harry Potter” accomodates an opinion of whether I or anyone thinks it’s good for our kids. No intention to assert that everyone ought to do the same.
Secondly, having listened to dozens of English teachers (in my education classes) challenge the very notion, I felt it necessary to assert here that literature actually can be good OR bad for a kid’s formation. (I’m not kidding.) I agree, it ought to seem insulting to be told this.
Look, I’m not submitting formal evidence at a hearing for the removal of Harry Potter from the shelves. It was a simple impression based on debates I’ve listened to and discussions I’ve had over the years with students, parents, and teachers. I’ve only read a portion of one of the books, so I base my impressions on what fans have assured me is accurate.
Again, my impression–that Harry Potter can teach children to value power which is not God-centered–thus far, I think is a reasonable concern. I don’t think you are right to say it’s not the point of debate here. Kind of pulls the rug out from people.
Peace.
John
S
Shiann
Guest
john ennis:
ie
“No YOU are…”
“No YOU are…”
“No YOU are…”
That’s real productive.
If one has formulated an opinion on something, and feels enough about it to post on a forum, one also must have some reason for their evalutation. Wether it’s emperical or not.
I have already mentioned that I used to lend my 7 year old brother my red tights so he could have the full costume for his Superman underoos. His imagination was motivated by the comics he was reading. He’d even attempt jumping from couch arms and steps to simulate flying.
But here’s the key. SOMETHING stopped him from jumping from our 15 foot deck; self preservation, a strict talking to from mom, or just plain common sense.
As a child, I LIVED in books. I created places where I could see and do things I couldn’t do in real life! But I NEVER believed that I could or should do any of the make believe things I read in stories. They were fantastical and believable for my mind to enjoy, but they were only stories!
I even read stories that had a murder plot- and the murderer gets away with it! The stories didn’t make me a serial killer. I’ve never even thought about murdering someone! Because, like my brother, there was a point where reality kicked in.
I submit that this is NO different with the Harry Potter stories. If you, as a parent, believe that your child hasn’t got the right sense of reality when reading HP, then BY ALL MEANS keep them from it. I read His Dark Materials series and found that much more damaging to religious morality than any HP story. I have not, and will not allow my daughter access to those stories because I do not think she will be able to differentiate between what is the reality of our religion, and what isn’t.
That isn’t the book’s fault that my daughter may be impressionable to these stories! Heck, I don’t even think it’s hers or my fault. It’s just her personality. I can’t blame the book for her personality!
Was my mother a bad parent because she allowed my brother to dress in girls’ tights and jump from the furniture? It would be absurd to try to answer that question based simply on those facts. This debate has been drifting in such a direction.
I didn’t mean to pick out you personally. I used your post as a spring board to forward that idea. My sincere apologies for any comments that seemed to be directed at you personally.
I guess if you believe that, you must have some reason. I cannot go about telling everyone the sky is chartreuse without getting one or two people asking my why I think that.
I, and other’s have provided evidence that “HP can teach children to value power which IS God centered.”
Rather than chat about who’s the better parent because of the books in their home library- why not discuss the in’s and out’s of HP.
Fair enough. I guess I was trying to get the debate past the “we think it’s EVIL.” vs. we think it’s FINE".
ie
“No YOU are…”
“No YOU are…”
“No YOU are…”
That’s real productive.
If one has formulated an opinion on something, and feels enough about it to post on a forum, one also must have some reason for their evalutation. Wether it’s emperical or not.
I agree on this. Literature can motivate grown men and women, let alone children.
I have already mentioned that I used to lend my 7 year old brother my red tights so he could have the full costume for his Superman underoos. His imagination was motivated by the comics he was reading. He’d even attempt jumping from couch arms and steps to simulate flying.
But here’s the key. SOMETHING stopped him from jumping from our 15 foot deck; self preservation, a strict talking to from mom, or just plain common sense.
As a child, I LIVED in books. I created places where I could see and do things I couldn’t do in real life! But I NEVER believed that I could or should do any of the make believe things I read in stories. They were fantastical and believable for my mind to enjoy, but they were only stories!
I even read stories that had a murder plot- and the murderer gets away with it! The stories didn’t make me a serial killer. I’ve never even thought about murdering someone! Because, like my brother, there was a point where reality kicked in.
I submit that this is NO different with the Harry Potter stories. If you, as a parent, believe that your child hasn’t got the right sense of reality when reading HP, then BY ALL MEANS keep them from it. I read His Dark Materials series and found that much more damaging to religious morality than any HP story. I have not, and will not allow my daughter access to those stories because I do not think she will be able to differentiate between what is the reality of our religion, and what isn’t.
That isn’t the book’s fault that my daughter may be impressionable to these stories! Heck, I don’t even think it’s hers or my fault. It’s just her personality. I can’t blame the book for her personality!
Fair enough, but again, my only comment was point out that this debate seemed to take a bitter turn toward using HP, and whether it was in the home or not, as a guage to the quality of parenting in that home. I believe it to be not only unfair but quite uncharitable as one CAN NOT make that determination on an online forum.
Was my mother a bad parent because she allowed my brother to dress in girls’ tights and jump from the furniture? It would be absurd to try to answer that question based simply on those facts. This debate has been drifting in such a direction.
I didn’t mean to pick out you personally. I used your post as a spring board to forward that idea. My sincere apologies for any comments that seemed to be directed at you personally.
I think it is reasonable as well, but the your post did not offer any reasons why you thought that “HP can teach children to value power which is not God centered”. You merely made the statement, then went on to insinuate that parent’s who allow their children to read HP either didn’t realize this, or didn’t care. I replied to you regarding THAT, not your opinion that “HP can teach children…”.
I guess if you believe that, you must have some reason. I cannot go about telling everyone the sky is chartreuse without getting one or two people asking my why I think that.
I, and other’s have provided evidence that “HP can teach children to value power which IS God centered.”
Rather than chat about who’s the better parent because of the books in their home library- why not discuss the in’s and out’s of HP.
D
deb1
Guest
john ennis:
I hope that nothing that I have said could be construed as being judgemental against a parent’s right to choose. We each know our own kids. SOmetimes parents just get gut reactions, and often those gut reactions should be respected. If you really feel that your individual child would be harmed by reading Harry Potter then by all means ban the book from your shelves.
D
deb1
Guest
Lost&Found:
Although I love Dickens and am a huge fan-David Copperfield is one of my favorite books-Dickens himself was pretty flawed. He left the mother of his 11 children for a young actress. That has nothing to do with Harry Potter but as Charles Dickens was mentioned-again one of my favorite authors-I thought that I’d throw that little historical tidbit out.
D
DragRacerGirl
Guest
I guess I never understood why this is talked about so much. I read the first book several years ago and when I was in 7th grade and just loved it. JK Rowling is an excellent author and her loveable characters I think are what could have possibly made her books such a hit. From a religious standpoint, I have always viewed the books not as really pointing 1 way or the other about a particular religion, but rather they take the very traditional theme we see in a lot of fantasy books that good will ultimately triumph over evil. I stand firmly in saying that they are great reads 4 anyone who loves literature. It never even occurred to me before that kids could possibly be led into cults or witchcraft or whatever, until there was all the sudden a huge controversy about it.I’m 18 now and am still excited to read the next book! Go Harry Potter!
E
Edwin1961
Guest
I wonder what Pope Benedict XVI would say if he saw these poll results.
I heard he has condemned (or at least) suggests Catholics should not read these books.
I heard he has condemned (or at least) suggests Catholics should not read these books.
R
RobNY
Guest
I think you can read the ‘great books’ and still enjoy a light fantasy read like Harry Potter.
I mean, sure, Kafka’s an interesting author (can’t say I cared too much for Metamorphosis, though), I preferred In the Penal Colony and A Report to an Academy more (found them more interesting). Maybe having to read Metamorphosis for class turned me off to it (I vaguely remember reading the Judgment, but I can’t remember what it was about, now). On the other hand, I read books like Tale of Two Cities (I started out rocky and loved it by the end, I even wrote a great essay on Jarvis Lorry being a three-dimensional character), Grapes of Wrath, Hamlet (well, it’s a play), Death of a Salesman (also a play, while I’m on the subject), The Scarlet Letter (unlike most people, I enjoyed Hawthorne’s dense prose) and even Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man (got a chapter left in that… er… interesting book) for class and all, and I generally liked those (that was just English class for junior year, I’m probably leaving more things out that I can’t think of).
So far this summer I’ve read More’s Utopia and Machiavelli’s *The Prince *(I found Utopia quite interesting, The Prince’s numerous historical references dragged down reading, although that is no fault of Machiavelli’s). I’ll be moving onto Dracula soon (which reminds me, I’m just guessing at my summer reading, I’d better find the list… hehe).
When I read Harry Potter on Sunday, it was a welcome break. No, I don’t think it’s great literature, but it’s a fun story to read. We can’t take ourselves seriously all the time.
As for reading children’s stories, I think it would be a shame if adults are absolutely not meant to read them. The Chronicles of Narnia, for one, are enchanting (if people here aren’t bothered by my choice of diction there, as a side note, I haven’t been able to find the copies of this book past the third one in my house for ages, where did they go?), I also remember the stories of Henry Sugar as being quite delightful (Rolald Dahl). I’m sure there are many others that I can’t remember.
I’ve also immensely enjoyed the entired Lord of the Rings mythos, you know, the Hobbit, tLoTR, the Silmarillion, as well as the Lost Tales (I know I have that name wrong, but, eh!) and some others.
At seventeen, I realize that much of literature is, perhaps, over my head, but I’d like to think that I’ve got a good start. But many times we can only realize that some of the great literature is truly great by contrasting it to contemporary, ephemeral literature.
Anyway, I firmly don’t believe that Harry Potter is harmful. At least it has a strong good vs. evil theme, which is something for this day and age of moral relativism! It isn’t fine cuisine, but everyone dines at the all-you-can eat Chinese buffet once in a while (and enjoys it!).
-Rob
EDIT: Almost forgot, I also read The Screwtape Letters fairly recently. Great stuff! (I’m also halfway done with a John Adams book, I’ll get around to it, he’s one of my favorite “founding fathers” now.
)
I mean, sure, Kafka’s an interesting author (can’t say I cared too much for Metamorphosis, though), I preferred In the Penal Colony and A Report to an Academy more (found them more interesting). Maybe having to read Metamorphosis for class turned me off to it (I vaguely remember reading the Judgment, but I can’t remember what it was about, now). On the other hand, I read books like Tale of Two Cities (I started out rocky and loved it by the end, I even wrote a great essay on Jarvis Lorry being a three-dimensional character), Grapes of Wrath, Hamlet (well, it’s a play), Death of a Salesman (also a play, while I’m on the subject), The Scarlet Letter (unlike most people, I enjoyed Hawthorne’s dense prose) and even Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man (got a chapter left in that… er… interesting book) for class and all, and I generally liked those (that was just English class for junior year, I’m probably leaving more things out that I can’t think of).
So far this summer I’ve read More’s Utopia and Machiavelli’s *The Prince *(I found Utopia quite interesting, The Prince’s numerous historical references dragged down reading, although that is no fault of Machiavelli’s). I’ll be moving onto Dracula soon (which reminds me, I’m just guessing at my summer reading, I’d better find the list… hehe).
When I read Harry Potter on Sunday, it was a welcome break. No, I don’t think it’s great literature, but it’s a fun story to read. We can’t take ourselves seriously all the time.
As for reading children’s stories, I think it would be a shame if adults are absolutely not meant to read them. The Chronicles of Narnia, for one, are enchanting (if people here aren’t bothered by my choice of diction there, as a side note, I haven’t been able to find the copies of this book past the third one in my house for ages, where did they go?), I also remember the stories of Henry Sugar as being quite delightful (Rolald Dahl). I’m sure there are many others that I can’t remember.
I’ve also immensely enjoyed the entired Lord of the Rings mythos, you know, the Hobbit, tLoTR, the Silmarillion, as well as the Lost Tales (I know I have that name wrong, but, eh!) and some others.
At seventeen, I realize that much of literature is, perhaps, over my head, but I’d like to think that I’ve got a good start. But many times we can only realize that some of the great literature is truly great by contrasting it to contemporary, ephemeral literature.
Anyway, I firmly don’t believe that Harry Potter is harmful. At least it has a strong good vs. evil theme, which is something for this day and age of moral relativism! It isn’t fine cuisine, but everyone dines at the all-you-can eat Chinese buffet once in a while (and enjoys it!).
-Rob
EDIT: Almost forgot, I also read The Screwtape Letters fairly recently. Great stuff! (I’m also halfway done with a John Adams book, I’ll get around to it, he’s one of my favorite “founding fathers” now.
)
T
turboEDvo
Guest
Hehehahahahhahoohoohooh I just got the new book. My sister bought it for me for my b-day and it arrived. I’ll let you know if it is evil once I finish reading it.
Eamon
Eamon
- Status