What do you think about lewis's trilemma?

[TechieGuy]

Why would it be a contradiction to believe that a lunatic could also be a great teacher?

 

[tafan2]

Most people would think a lunatic whose teachings are predominantly focused on himself being such an important person is not a great teacher. YMMV.

 

[Gorgias]

There’s a fourth L he forgot: L egend. That’s doesn’t mean Jesus didn’t exist (although that is a possibility).

No credible scholar makes the suggestion that Jesus is merely a legend. I guess that makes your “fourth possibility” Laughable.

 

[Gorgias]

Why can’t it use with
Muhammad as hamza tzortzis use it
(Liar deluded or truthful?)

Since Muhammad got martyr (not liar)

Liars don’t get killed?

I not mistaken it happen when his son died at that moment there was eclipse happen

Hmm… does that mean that anyone whose son dies at the moment of an eclipse (or earthquake… or tsunami… or strong breeze) is a prophet?

Then he was truthful and he is prophet from God?

Hold on a second, though: you’re making a different claim that diverges from the “trilemma”: Mohammed never claimed to be God. Jesus did, however. And, Jesus backed it up (with his miracles and his resurrection). What did Mohammed do, to back up his assertions, then?

 

[mhmtas63]

Hold on a second, though: you’re making a different claim that diverges from the “trilemma”: Mohammed never claimed to be God. Jesus did , however. And, Jesus backed it up (with his miracles and his resurrection). What did Mohammed do, to back up his assertions, then?

Jesus did not claim to be God but someone else did! Muhammad performed about thousand miracles. One of them is Qur’an. Jesus was not killed! Hımmm… Those arguments take very long…

 

[Gorgias]

Jesus did not claim to be God but someone else did!

Umm… pardon?

I would recommend that you read Pitre’s “The Case for Jesus”. He very definitely did claim to be God, and the Jewish leaders of the time understood the claim and reacted violently to it!

Jesus was not killed!

Again: umm… pardon?

 

[Kaninchen]

No credible scholar makes the suggestion that Jesus is merely a legend.

Well, there’s a difference between considering whether there existed an itinerant preacher of somewhat pharisaic views called (in translation) ‘Jesus’ and whether ‘Jesus’ as portrayed in the NT was ‘real Jesus’ or ‘legend Jesus’.

Arguing against the former would seem a great waste of time but that doesn’t mean that no credible scholar denies that ‘legend Jesus’ existed.

 

[Kaninchen]

In the case of either Jesus or Mohammed, it would rather depend on whether one saw the ‘NT’ or Quran as scripture/reportage or pious fiction.

 

[po18guy]

Who is this “Lewis” character and what on earth is a trilemma?

OK, rhetorical, but this whole thing has very suddenly popped up.

Is there some sort of agenda behind this?

It is not “proof” of anything except that the human mind should be capable of comprehending a logical argument. C. S. Lewis was only trying to persuade, if not convince, the blathering anti-Christian knuckleheads of his day.

 

[Kaninchen]

Who is this “Lewis” character and what on earth is a trilemma?

I think its real popularity started with people like Josh McDowell and the Alpha Course evangelists.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Why can’t it use with
Muhammad

You can.
Lewis’ trilemma works just as well with Muhammad.
Either he was;

• telling the truth - about everything.
• lying - about many things.
• delusional about many things

Does Muhammad fit the promise made by God Deuteronomy 18:15 and 34:10?

Muhammad was not raised from among the Jews.
And Muhammad came after Jesus which wasn’t supposed to happen.

 

[po18guy]

Ah, thank you.

 

[po18guy]

Jesus of Nazareth was the only religious figure to be prophesied and to fulfill those prophecies.

Muhammad was not.
Buddha was not.
The founders of Hinduism were not.
Confucius was not.
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was not.
Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh was not.

Not one.

Except Christ.

 

[Lion_IRC]

po18guy:

Who is this “Lewis” character and what on earth is a trilemma?

I think its real popularity started with people like Josh McDowell and the Alpha Course evangelists.

The power of Lewis’ trilemma is its coercive logic that there are only three options - ether Jesus’ divinity is a deliberate lie, a sincere delusion, or it is factual reality.

To categorise Him as something other - like a nice man or liberal rabbi - requires that one ignore or rewrite history.

 

[Kaninchen]

Except Christ.

The problem is that it requires one to take the NT as scripture/reportage, if not, Jesus lines up with the others.

 

[Kaninchen]

To categorise Him as something other - like a nice man or liberal rabbi - requires that one ignore or rewrite history.

Asserting that the NT is scripture/reportage doesn’t make it scripture/reportage.

 

[po18guy]

Eyewitnesses to Jesus’ miracles went on to disbelieve. So, a 19th century bit of logic will convert?

Possibly.

 

[po18guy]

Beg to differ. In the ultimate sense the Christian faith does not need the scriptures. They are irreplaceable, but not absolutely necessary, since they are not foundational documents. It takes the living, breathing, continuous tradition handed on from eyewitnesses to us. It takes the blood of martyrs who sacrificed this life rather than deny Christ. It is confirmed by 2,000 years of miracles and other supernatural events.

With an exception or two, the rest are nice guys, perceptive observers, even brilliant philosophers - but not one ever rose from the dead; not one ever raised another from the dead.

 

[Gorgias]

whether ‘Jesus’ as portrayed in the NT was ‘real Jesus’ or ‘legend Jesus’.

And… how exactly would they make that determination?

Besides which, if you’re creating a new, shadow entity (i.e., “the character depicted in the Gospels named Jesus”), then the question operates on the level of the character and what he thought about himself. Therefore, the trilemma still holds. (I mean, you wouldn’t ask “did the legend think he was a legend?” )

Even if you don’t think that my assertion holds, then you have to explain what the difference between ‘legend’ and ‘liar’ is – you’d just have to define who is doing the lying!

Asserting that the NT is scripture/reportage doesn’t make it scripture/reportage.

It was written by those who claim to have been eyewitnesses (or who claim that they spoke to eyewitnesses). It’s written in the style of a biography (as that style existed in that era and culture). If that’s not “reportage”, then you’re gonna have a hard time using that word in any meaningful way.

It is claimed by those who believe in Jesus to be ‘scripture’. Again, if you want to dispute that claim, you’re gonna have a hard time using that word at all, and in any context.

So… yeah. “Scripture” and “reportage” really do hold up to scrutiny.

 

[Lion_IRC]

Eyewitnesses to Jesus’ miracles went on to disbelieve. So, a 19th century bit of logic will convert?

Possibly.

Lewis’ Trilemma doesn’t call on you to convert.
It calls on you to decide.

Two out of Lewis’s three options allow for the decision to disbelieve.
Was Jesus insane? (Poached egg)
Was He deliberately lying? (Wicked)

If you decide neither, then there’s only one remaining alternative.