What do you think about these words?

[Nelka]

“every religion leads to heaven on its own merits”

No point in being Catholic or Christian then?

 

[Gorgias]

“every religion leads to heaven on its own merits”

No point in being Catholic or Christian then?

Umm…

What I wrote is that it’s not the case that ‘every religion leads to heaven on its own merits’. Therefore, it’s critically important to be a member of the Catholic Church!

 

[Nelka]

What I wrote is that it’s not the case that ‘every religion leads to heaven on its own merits’. Therefore, it’s critically important to be a member of the Catholic Church!

You said the church teaches it.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Fr Robert Muller was of the “rigorist interpretation of the doctrine of extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” and so was therefore at odds with official Catholic dogma.

Catholics are not the only ones going to Heaven.

The quote above is very much an aspect of his rigorist belief in “No salvation outside the Catholic Church,” his interpretation of which has been condemned. So Catholics should NOT think fondly of that quote, insofar as we interpret it as Fr Muller would.

 

[margaret42]

Not sure about that. You can respect the people who believe in their faith; it may not be Catholic, but their beliefs mean something to them. As long as no one tries to change another person’s mind.

 

[RandomAlias]

(Referring to the OP) I would only quibble with the wording. Is it possible to respect a religion, which is an abstract thing, or rather do we respect people?

 

[margaret42]

“there’s no salvation outside of the Catholic church”. I don’t think that Jesus meant that just Catholics will get to heaven. The people of His time were Jewish and Pagans, etc. He told them how to be saved. And a lot of them were. Saved meaning they had the hope of going to heaven, not “Faith Alone”.
People today who are Atheists can also be saved. But it’s all done according to God’s plan through the Catholic church. No church, no salvation

 

[Nelka]

People today who are Atheists can also be saved. But it’s all done according to God’s plan through the Catholic church. No church, no salvation

That makes no sense to me at all.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Well, it’s Catholic teaching.

We aren’t saved by intellectual assent. Having the right beliefs and doctrines is not what saves us.

We are saved by Christ and his grace.

This grace is a gift offered to all. This is dogmatic teaching – that God gives the offer of salvation to every person. So naturally, this includes those who aren’t even convinced of Catholicism, or even those who have never heard of Christ.

Sure, having the right beliefs aids us on our path of salvation, but not because of the beliefs in themselves as bits of factual information.

How so?

In the same way an infant can be saved. An 8 month-old child has no clue who Christ is. But the gift of faith, hope, and love are infused into his soul via Baptism. So he has an implicit faith.

An atheist might well have an implicit faith, might very well have an supernatural life of love and hope. What this means is hard to p(name removed by moderator)oint empirically, and we know that Catholicism offers a better advantage for salvation — because it has the fullness of Christ’s gifts — but Christ is not bound by the church.

 

[Nelka]

I understand the bit about the child and the invincible ignorance but if atheists and other faiths can get to Heaven then why be Catholic?

 

[catholic1seeks]

The last bit I had:

and we know that Catholicism offers a better advantage for salvation — because it has the fullness of Christ’s gifts — but Christ is not bound by the church.

Christ has made certain things normative. Why wouldn’t you want to be Catholic if the Church was the fullest offer of human flourishing and holiness?

Think of it like this. The Catholic Church is the fullness of Christ’s revelation.
But what about the Orthodox Church? Well, they too have the same means of holiness via the liturgy and mysteries, especially the Eucharist. But they miss the teaching authority of the church, so certain questions are unable to be addressed: Contraception OK? Divorce OK?
Protestant bodies that respect the creed and have valid baptism are also on the path of holiness. Baptismal grace incorporates one into the Body of Christ. But they miss not only the teaching authority of the Church, but also the Eucharist…
Mormons and JWs acknowledge the Christ of history but have incorrect information. Still, God can work with what they have, as they seek to follow Christ honestly and intentionally.

Jews…
Muslims…
Agnostics…
Even Atheists.

You see how every human person has access to SOME truth of God, even if it’s just the created order and conscience, without deliberate intents to follow a religious tradition.

 

[AndrewAxland]

That makes no sense to me at all.

Exactly, and it’s not supposed to. As the Church teaches, how God does this is beyond faith and reason, so we humans can never understand it, until we are with Him in Heaven. Until then, we just have to accept that He has His own plan and his own reasons.

 

[Nelka]

Christ has made certain things normative. Why wouldn’t you want to be Catholic if the Church was the fullest offer of human flourishing and holiness?

I understand that but I feel like as a Catholic I have to do 10,000 times more work to get to Heaven than a protestant or atheist based on the teaching.

 

[Nelka]

Exactly, and it’s not supposed to. As the Church teaches, how God does this is beyond faith and reason, so we humans can never understand it, until we are with Him in Heaven. Until then, we just have to accept that He has His own plan and his own reasons.

So I don’t need to pray for people’s conversions to the church?

 

[catholic1seeks]

The Catholic Church has the fullness of moral truth.

If you are an atheist, you may have incorrect understanding of human flourishing.

You may think sex with anyone and anything is perfectly moral, for example.

Being an atheist is not an advantage. Neither is ignorance.

You don’t have Eucharist or Confession if you’re an atheist.

Christ is the advantage.

He is the Way.

 

[catholic1seeks]

@Nelka
I added this to my response above:

Think of it like this. The Catholic Church is the fullness of Christ’s revelation.
But what about the Orthodox Church? Well, they too have the same means of holiness via the liturgy and mysteries, especially the Eucharist. But they miss the teaching authority of the church, so certain questions are unable to be addressed: Contraception OK? Divorce OK?
Protestant bodies that respect the creed and have valid baptism are also on the path of holiness. Baptismal grace incorporates one into the Body of Christ. But they miss not only the teaching authority of the Church, but also the Eucharist…
Mormons and JWs acknowledge the Christ of history but have incorrect information. Still, God can work with what they have, as they seek to follow Christ honestly and intentionally.

Jews…
Muslims…
Agnostics…
Even Atheists.

You see how every human person has access to SOME truth of God, even if it’s just the created order and conscience, without deliberate intents to follow a religious tradition.

 

[AndrewAxland]

So I don’t need to pray for people’s conversions to the church?

How does that follow from what I wrote? The Church is very clear about that.

I understand that but I feel like as a Catholic I have to do 10,000 times more work to get to Heaven than a protestant or atheist based on the teaching.

Funny as that may sound, it has been pondered on for centuries by great minds, including Augustine, who came to essentially the same conclusion.

 

[Gorgias]

What I wrote is that it’s not the case that ‘every religion leads to heaven on its own merits’. Therefore, it’s critically important to be a member of the Catholic Church!

Umm… yes. The Catholic Church teaches that not every religion leads to heaven on its own merits.

Why is that a problem?

 

[Gorgias]

if atheists and other faiths can get to Heaven then why be Catholic?

Because, as far as we know, can only get to heaven through the mercy of God. (When I teach CCD, I tell students, “well… you could pass your test by studying and learning the material, and then you’ll be pretty well certain that you’ll pass… or, you could stay up all night, eating pizza and playing Xbox, and hope that you pass the test through blind luck. Which way do you think has a better chance of working?”

I understand that but I feel like as a Catholic I have to do 10,000 times more work to get to Heaven than a protestant or atheist based on the teaching.

No, you don’t have to do “more work.” But, your path to heaven is one that Christ taught and God guarantees. You would rather just hope on the mercy of God?

So I don’t need to pray for people’s conversions to the church?

Of course we do!

 

[catholic1seeks]

Yeah, it’s not so much doing “more work,” as it is knowing more.

Non Catholics may have access to grace (and indeed they do). But Catholics know what the normative access points are: prayer, the Eucharist, confession, liturgy, the communion of saints, ascetism and fasting, discipline and devotions, proper moral teaching, and so on.