What do YOU think about Us Catholics and our veneration of Mary

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I asked Mary to be a mom to my daughter. To make up for whatever I lack and smooth over my mistakes.

Most anxiety-reducing thing I have ever done as a mom.
 
You are ignoring free will.

Adam and Eve had the same graces and advantages. They choose to sin.

Mary could have said no. She might have even been tempted to do so. She was a young teenager, about to be married and have her whole life in front of her. Here came the angel saying take this radical path out of the safe world you know.

Think of her life, she had to flee her home. Raise her son, who was also her God…how bizarre would that be? Watch her son be betrayed, tortured, ridiculed and crucified all for the sake of the world which will largely scorn and reject her son. Her life wasn’t a walk in the park.

Mary also has a lot of responsibility. It isn’t like she’s lying around on the clouds eating bon bons. She’s chasing us down, keeping us on the path, pleading with her Son to give us grace and mercy.
 
Elizabeth3 said:
he spirit doesn’t pass on genes. Only human nature has genes to pass on.
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Of course, just as a woman does not self conceive, fertilize her own egg.So somewhere a miracle happened via the Holy Spirit “coming upon her”…So she either self conceived or fertilizing genes were made anew.
 
mcq72 said:
So somewhere a miracle happened via the Holy Spirit “coming upon her”…So she either self conceived or fertilizing genes were made anew.
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The Holy Spirit doesn’t have “fertilizing genes” but that doesn’t mean that Mary would then have self-conceived. She conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit in a miraculous way but it didn’t involve Christ receiving genes from the Holy Spirit.

The “somewhere” that one miracle happened was during her own conception when she was preserved from sin.

It’s either…

She was born with original sin which had an effect on every cell of her body including any eggs she had and Christ took on His human flesh from that which had been tainted but then purified.

or

She was preserved free from original sin which would mean her flesh was preserved from it’s taint including any eggs and Christ took on His human flesh from that which was always pure.

Which is more fitting to be united to His divine nature? That which was always pure or that which was at one time impure?

Also, Christ is the New Adam and Mary is the New Eve. If Adam and Eve were both made immaculate why would Christ’s very own Mother, as the New Eve, not be immaculate?

God also said the The Woman, referring to Mary would have enmity with the Serpent. How could the woman have enmity with Satan while also being under the dominion of sin?
 
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Elizabeth3 said:
The Holy Spirit doesn’t have “fertilizing genes” but that doesn’t mean that Mary would then have self-conceived. She conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit in a miraculous way but it didn’t involve Christ receiving genes from the Holy Spirit.
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Did Jesus have a Y chromosome? Where did it come from?
Elizabeth3 said:
She was born with original sin which had an effect on every cell of her body including any eggs she had and Christ took on His human flesh from that which had been tainted but then purified.

or

She was preserved free from original sin which would mean her flesh was preserved from it’s taint including any eggs and Christ took on His human flesh from that which was always pure.
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I thought that Original Sin came from the father and not from the mother. That was how I understood Augustine’s explanation. Is the official teaching that it comes from the mother as well as the father?
 
Elizabeth3 said:
That which was always pure or that which was at one time impure?
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Not sure that makes sense, for even the immaculte conception was from what was impure at one time (her mother/father)…all that is scripturally required is that Christ was without sin…He is not tainted with proximity to sin, in fact He came to take on the sins of the world upon Himself…He is breaking out of heaven, coming out of His golden tabernacle, His golden ark, to touch fallen human flesh, and heal it.
 
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“susanlo said:
She conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit in a miraculous way but it didn’t involve Christ receiving genes from the Holy Spirit.
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by Elizabeth3

Of course no one is suggesting what is pagan (gods having "relations"with humans)…but yes miraculous…by His very Word everything has been created, and if Mary could be immaculate by a pre emptive application of Calvary, so could His one and only Son…again Writ is very clear and explicit…He was without sin.
 
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susanlo said:
I wrote
The Holy Spirit doesn’t have “fertilizing genes” but that doesn’t mean that Mary would then have self-conceived. She conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit in a miraculous way but it didn’t involve Christ receiving genes from the Holy Spirit.

You asked

Did Jesus have a Y chromosome? Where did it come from?
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The Church has not ruled dogmatically on this question. When I say that the Holy Spirit doesn’t have fertilizing genes, I mean He doesn’t have human genetic material to pass on as a father would. First, the Holy Spirit is pure spirit so there is nothing “human” like genes to transmit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father of Jesus. Second, Jesus as a male had a Y chromosome that was supernaturally supplied to Him at the Incarnation.

But what would that have to do with the final point of what would be more fitting for Christ as far as Mary’s genetic contribution having first been tainted and then purified or having been preserved from ever having that taint to begin with?
susanlo said:
I thought that Original Sin came from the father and not from the mother. That was how I understood Augustine’s explanation. Is the official teaching that it comes from the mother as well as the father?
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I think what was being communicated was that it took Adam’s sin, rather than Eve’s, for the Original Sin to affect all of human nature because fathers are the active principle in generation. This sin deprived all of human nature of the original state of holiness and justice. However, once the fall had taken place, this wounded human nature is passed on by means of reproduction and is received from both parents who both have a wounded human nature.

Here is what the CCC says,
416 By his sin Adam, as the first man, lost the original holiness and justice he had received from God, not only for himself but for all human beings.

417 Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin”.

418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called “concupiscence”).

419 “We therefore hold, with the Council of Trent, that original sin is transmitted with human nature, “by propagation, not by imitation” and that it is. . . ‘proper to each’” (Paul VI, CPG § 16).
 
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Elizabeth3 said:
How could the woman have enmity with Satan while also being under the dominion of sin?
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Last I heard the battle has raged from the garden till that great future day, though the war has been won at Calvary…children of God, believers of His promises thru grace and faith, since the fall, have enmity with the kingdom of darkness, though not yet perfectly redeemed and glorified. God’s dispensatipns and covenants are sufficient evidence of this, including our present church age.

Mary was of the One True faith, And God’s light to the world of her time,at enmity with the kingdom of darkness…like Moses and David, and Elizabeth and John the Baptist, and countless other Jews (like the sands of the seashore), and all without any immaculate conceptions to my knowledge.
 
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mcq72, You seem quite firm in what you believe. I am also quite firm about my faith and what the Catholic Church teaches. I gave you a link up above in an earlier post to catholicbridge that answers the Catholic position on pretty much all the arguments you have presented. If you are interested in knowing what the Catholic teachings are or the answers to your arguments, you can read there for further information or consult the CCC. It’s getting to the point where I’m spending a lot of time typing answers that can be found elsewhere. If your interest is not in getting information but in attempting to persuade me of the truth of your arguments, then we could end up going around and around forever because as I’ve said, I’m quite firm in what I already believe and accept as truth.
 
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Elizabeth3 said:
mcq72, You seem quite firm in what you believe. I am also quite firm about my faith and what the Catholic Church teaches.
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Ok thank you…you presented your view (CC) very well and politely… very challenging, even as iron sharpens iron
 
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Elizabeth3
16h
mcq72:
[quote Actually, as has been posted by others , Imaculatemess was not out of necessity, or for Christs sake. I mean Christ would touch other flesh , and walk on a fallen earth, and he even inhabits us, being cleansed by the faith in His blood, not to mention OT cleansing of same said faith. Fitting is not "necessity’’
[/quote]

[quoteREPLY #1 Touching other flesh is not the same as it being His flesh which is inseparable from His divine nature. (the hypostatic union) Can that which has the divine nature of God share also a human nature which is tainted by sin?
[/quote]
REPLY #2 Yes Jesus Truly a man with a perfect human nature and God with always His Divine Nature intact; did choose to enter into the world He had created without sin, which was introduced by Adam through Eve, termed “Original sin”
Jesus was “like Us” in every way except sin to offer a cure for sin {His One True Church and Faith which includes critically the 7 Sacraments}

mcq72:
[quoteif you follow the logic, that Mary had to be immaculate to receive and carry a Holy Christ, then how was Mary conceived holy and sinless in a fleshly sin natured mother
[/quote]

[quoteREPLY #1 She had to be immaculate so that the human nature that she passed on to Christ was not tainted by sin as He was also fully God as well as fully Man. In 1854, Pope Pius IX pronounced the Dogma like this “… the Most Blessed Virgin Mary was in the first instant of her conception, by the singular grace and privilege of God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.”

Here is a very thorough explanation of Catholic belief regarding Mary that will address your other points of OT figures as well. It is much more in depth and instructive than I can be on a forum.
[/quote]
http://www.catholicbridge.com/catholic/mary_conceived_without_sin_immaculate_conception.php

REPLY #2
Mary in an absolute sense did NOT “Have to be Perfect” to merit being the Mother of GOD; Our All Good and Powerful could have been born threw a tainted “vessel”; it was GOD”S Decision Not Mary’s the she be conceived without out a stain of any sin due to the merits of her Son to be, applied to Mary. For GOD time does not exist; everything is “present to GOD.”
mcq72:

[quoteBut it is… .we all must choose,and as Christ asks the apostles, He asks all, "What do you think ?’’ as He did about whom we think He is…and John says we, as children, know all things, receiving unction from the Holy Ghost.
[/quote]

[quoteNo, I’m not responsible for the interpretation if I believe, as I do, that Christ left us a Church bestowed
with His authority to interpret Scripture. My choice is in whether to be obedient or no
[/quote]

REPLY #2
I absolutely agree that is our choice. See Isaiah 43: verses 7 & 21
God Bless you both,
Patrick
 
PJM said:
Dear friend in Christ,

What do YOU think about us Catholics and our veneration of Mary?
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I get the feeling you are just looking for a fight when you post questions like this. Are you?

Let’s work towards healing divisions, not emphasizing where we have sharp disagreements.
 
Sojourmer,

Your statement is incomprehensible to me the OP,

I POSTED a sincere question which you and others are free to respond to or ignore.

I am in NO WAY seeking anything besides an honest dialog; but thanks for asking {I think}

God Bless you,
Patrick
 
Yes you are right. It does appear as the strawman discussion.
As Patrick believes non catholics can not understand scripture correctly.
And that the holy spirit prevents them because they are non Catholic’s

But he has the correct understanding
Because catholics have the “real presence”
And the right interpretation

God bless
 
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