What do you think happened to Pontius Pilate?

[MHT32]

He is in Hell.

From Revelations of St. Bridget of Sweden

I wouldnt believe it at all honestly, no single human being should no where a soul ends up (besides where the Saints end up- in heaven). Is there a chance he is in Hell? Of course, but I dont know if he is. I dont think thats for us to know.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Do you think he is in heaven, hell, or still in purgatory?

Well, that would be an extremely long timet to be in purgatory.

He is a saint in the Ethiopian Church.

 

[faithfully]

Do you think he is in heaven, hell, or still in purgatory?

Well, that would be an extremely long timet to be in purgatory.

I imagine if he was sorry and sought forgiveness it was granted. God knows his heart.

If he was thrilled with his actions, glad he’d done it, failed to see the slightest wrong in what he did, he might very well be in hell.

Perhaps he didn’t understand the gravity of his actions until the exact moment of his death at which point he could see clearly. I envision some time spent in purgatory. An amount of which is not really fathomable.

In the end, we have no way of knowing. Until perhaps our own death.

Have you ever read the story of Dr. Gloria Polo? I think of her when I ponder questions such as yours.

 

[Hokomai]

Well, since you said it, and it is true, you need to change your tag line. Maybe something like: “I believe that there is no God.”

Yes, but I don’t believe there is no God. I have not concluded there is a god(s), anymore than i have concluded there are unicorns. In this, I am unlike Pontius Pilate, who was quite sure there were any number of gods.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Yes, but I don’t believe there is no God. I have not concluded there is a god(s), anymore than i have concluded there are unicorns. In this, I am unlike Pontius Pilate, who was quite sure there were any number of gods.

Thank you. Is agnostic then the appropriate term for your current position?

 

[patrick457]

He is a saint in the Ethiopian Church.

Yet stories circulating in other parts of Christendom have a less favorable view of him. I mean, if falling into bad luck, committing suicide as a result and eventually having one’s corpse infested by evil spirits isn’t bad enough, I don’t know what is.

 

[CatholicSheila]

He is a saint in the Ethiopian Church.

That’s very interesting. Do you a source that I could look up for more info regarding when and how he became a saint?

I’d certainly take this as more authoritive than St Bridget of Sweden.

 

[patrick457]

That’s very interesting. Do you a source that I could look up for more info regarding when and how he became a saint?

I’d certainly take this as more authoritive than St Bridget of Sweden.

Well, the idea that Pilate was really a good guy comes from one way of reading the gospel accounts, where Pilate seems to be very insistent in letting Jesus free. It wasn’t much of a stretch to go from the idea of ‘plain ol’ positive character’ to ‘full-fledged saint’. (There was no formal canonization process in early Christianity: people perceived by many to be holy were just usually dubbed as ‘saints’ through popular acclaim.) The downside of this, of course, is that with the exoneration of Pilate, the blame for Jesus’ death now rests squarely on “the Jews.”

 

[bearer]

Pilate was a pagan politician who gave the people what they wanted for the sake of popularity despite its injustice. God only knows where he ended up, but then again, I don’t think his chances of salvation were all that high to begin with.

 

[patrick457]

Pilate was a pagan politician who gave the people what they wanted for the sake of popularity despite its injustice. God only knows where he ended up, but then again, I don’t think his chances of salvation were all that high to begin with.

The author Warren Carter identified five main ways of looking at Pilate:

1.) An iron-fisted monster who hates his subjects with a cruel passion and who relishes offending them on purpose at every turn
2.) A spineless weakling who could only cave in to stronger voices
3.) A well-meaning yet culturally-insensitive boor who did not realize he was being offensive and inconsiderate
4.) A positive character who senses something special about Jesus and thus becomes a ‘Christian’ of sorts, who only condemns Jesus to death because he realizes that it is God’s will
5.) A total saint

 

[ConstantineTG]

That’s very interesting. Do you a source that I could look up for more info regarding when and how he became a saint?

I’d certainly take this as more authoritive than St Bridget of Sweden.

There is an apocryphal book called Acts of Pilate. As noted in the Gospel, Pilate’s wife was a believer in Christ and the Acts of Pilate continued in saying that she became a follower after the death and resurrection of Christ. Pilate was summoned back to Rome to tell of the events in Jerusalem. After he recounted how Christ died and resurrected, he was told by Rome to recant his witness and never speak of it again. Pilate refused and thus was martyred for this by Rome. Pilate was never a follower of Christ until the last moment when he refused to deny his witness of Him. Thus his wife was given a vision of Pilate’s martyrdom and she herself was overwhelmed with joy that she died of ecstasy and was taken to heaven as well.

 

[Hokomai]

Thank you. Is agnostic then the appropriate term for your current position?

Well, you might apply it, but I would not, since I do not use any unlikely-to-exist being as a personal reference point for my thinking, and I am assuming the gnosis you consider me to not have is about the existence of a god(s).

 

[johnnyjones]

Gibson’s “Passion of the Christ” portrayed Pilate as a sypmathetic figure, mostly. Pilate did put other people to death in brutal ways so he is accoutable for not just his actions towards Jesus but others. I think he falls into the same category as Judas. Basically it all had to happen. Judas was destined to be the “son of perdition”. Pilate also had a date with destiny.

However they are judged, as with my own wretched life, it will be righteous. God have mercy on us all !

 

[johnnyjones]

Well, you might apply it, but I would not, since I do not use any unlikely-to-exist being as a personal reference point for my thinking, and I am assuming the gnosis you consider me to not have is about the existence of a god(s).

Are you a believer in infinite “elements?”

 

[patrick457]

Gibson’s “Passion of the Christ” portrayed Pilate as a sypmathetic figure, mostly. Pilate did put other people to death in brutal ways so he is accoutable for not just his actions towards Jesus but others. I think he falls into the same category as Judas. Basically it all had to happen. Judas was destined to be the “son of perdition”. Pilate also had a date with destiny.

However they are judged, as with my own wretched life, it will be righteous. God have mercy on us all !

And this is what really made the film controversial and (for a number of people) ‘problematic’.

 

[patrick457]

There is an apocryphal book called Acts of Pilate. As noted in the Gospel, Pilate’s wife was a believer in Christ and the Acts of Pilate continued in saying that she became a follower after the death and resurrection of Christ. Pilate was summoned back to Rome to tell of the events in Jerusalem. After he recounted how Christ died and resurrected, he was told by Rome to recant his witness and never speak of it again. Pilate refused and thus was martyred for this by Rome. Pilate was never a follower of Christ until the last moment when he refused to deny his witness of Him. Thus his wife was given a vision of Pilate’s martyrdom and she herself was overwhelmed with joy that she died of ecstasy and was taken to heaven as well.

Not the Acts of Pilate (although that work does exonerate him), but the Paradosis Pilati (‘Giving Up of Pilate’).

 

[patrick457]

What we know about Pontius Pilate from Josephus (Antiquities, 18.33-35, 55-64, 85-89):

[Tiberius] was now the third emperor; and he sent Valerius Gratus to be procurator of Judea, and to succeed Annius Rufus. This man deprived Ananus of the high priesthood, and appointed Ismael, the son of Phabi, to be high priest. He also deprived him in a little time, and ordained Eleazar, the son of Ananus, who had been high priest before, to be high priest; which office, when he had held for a year, Gratus deprived him of it, and gave the high priesthood to Simon, the son of Camithus; and when he had possessed that dignity no longer than a year, Joseph Caiaphas was made his successor. When Gratus had done those things, he went back to Rome, after he had tarried in Judea eleven years, when Pontius Pilate came as his successor.

…] But now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Cesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws. So he introduced Caesar’s effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Cesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images; and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Cesarea.

But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do. So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

( Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, ((if it be lawful to call him a man; )) for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. (( He was [the] Christ. )) And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; (( for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. )) And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. )

 

[patrick457]

…] But the nation of the Samaritans did not escape without tumults. The man who excited them to it was one who thought lying a thing of little consequence, and who contrived every thing so that the multitude might be pleased; so he bid them to get together upon Mount Gerizzim, which is by them looked upon as the most holy of all mountains, and assured them, that when they were come thither, he would show them those sacred vessels which were laid under that place, because Moses put them there. So they came thither armed, and thought the discourse of the man probable; and as they abode at a certain village, which was called Tirathaba, they got the rest together to them, and desired to go up the mountain in a great multitude together; but Pilate prevented their going up, by seizing upon file roads with a great band of horsemen and foot-men, who fell upon those that were gotten together in the village; and when it came to an action, some of them they slew, and others of them they put to flight, and took a great many alive, the principal of which, and also the most potent of those that fled away, Pilate ordered to be slain.

But when this tumult was appeased, the Samaritan senate sent an embassy to Vitellius, a man that had been consul, and who was now president of Syria, and accused Pilate of the murder of those that were killed; for that they did not go to Tirathaba in order to revolt from the Romans, but to escape the violence of Pilate. So Vitellius sent Marcellus, a friend of his, to take care of the affairs of Judea, and ordered Pilate to go to Rome, to answer before the emperor to the accusations of the Jews. So Pilate, when he had tarried ten years in Judea, made haste to Rome, and this in obedience to the orders of Vitellius, which he durst not contradict; but before he could get to Rome Tiberius was dead.

From The Jewish War (2.169-174):

Now Pilate, who was sent as procurator into Judea by Tiberius, sent by night those images of Caesar that are called ensigns into Jerusalem. This excited a very among great tumult among the Jews when it was day; for those that were near them were astonished at the sight of them, as indications that their laws were trodden under foot; for those laws do not permit any sort of image to be brought into the city. Nay, besides the indignation which the citizens had themselves at this procedure, a vast number of people came running out of the country. These came zealously to Pilate to Cesarea, and besought him to carry those ensigns out of Jerusalem, and to preserve them their ancient laws inviolable; but upon Pilate’s denial of their request, they fell down prostrate upon the ground, and continued immovable in that posture for five days and as many nights.

On the next day Pilate sat upon his tribunal, in the open market-place, and called to him the multitude, as desirous to give them an answer; and then gave a signal to the soldiers, that they should all by agreement at once encompass the Jews with their weapons; so the band of soldiers stood round about the Jews in three ranks. The Jews were under the utmost consternation at that unexpected sight. Pilate also said to them that they should be cut in pieces, unless they would admit of Caesar’s images, and gave intimation to the soldiers to draw their naked swords. Hereupon the Jews, as it were at one signal, fell down in vast numbers together, and exposed their necks bare, and cried out that they were sooner ready to be slain, than that their law should be transgressed. Hereupon Pilate was greatly surprised at their prodigious superstition, and gave order that the ensigns should be presently carried out of Jerusalem.

After this he raised another disturbance, by expending that sacred treasure which is called Corban upon aqueducts, whereby he brought water from the distance of four hundred furlongs. At this the multitude had indignation; and when Pilate was come to Jerusalem, they came about his tribunal, and made a clamor at it. Now when he was apprized aforehand of this disturbance, he mixed his own soldiers in their armor with the multitude, and ordered them to conceal themselves under the habits of private men, and not indeed to use their swords, but with their staves to beat those that made the clamor. He then gave the signal from his tribunal [to do as he had bidden them]. Now the Jews were so sadly beaten, that many of them perished by the stripes they received, and many of them perished as trodden to death by themselves; by which means the multitude was astonished at the calamity of those that were slain, and held their peace.

 

[patrick457]

From Philo (The Embassy to Gaius (Caligula), 298-305):

"What again did your other grandfather, Tiberius Caesar, do? Does not he appear to have adopted an exactly similar line of conduct? At all events, during the three and twenty years that he was emperor, he preserved the form of worship in the temple as it had been handed down from the earliest times, without abrogating or altering the slightest particular of it.

"Moreover, I have it in my power to relate one act of ambition on his part, though I suffered an infinite number of evils when he was alive; but nevertheless the truth is considered dear, and much to be honoured by you. Pilate was one of the emperor’s lieutenants, having been appointed governor of Judaea. He, not more with the object of doing honour to Tiberius than with that of vexing the multitude, dedicated some gilt shields in the palace of Herod, in the holy city; which had no form nor any other forbidden thing represented on them except some necessary inscription, which mentioned these two facts, the name of the person who had placed them there, and the person in whose honour they were so placed there. But when the multitude heard what had been done, and when the circumstance became notorious, then the people, putting forward the four sons of the king, who were in no respect inferior to the kings themselves, in fortune or in rank, and his other descendants, and those magistrates who were among them at the time, entreated him to alter and to rectify the innovation which he had committed in respect of the shields; and not to make any alteration in their national customs, which had hitherto been preserved without any interruption, without being in the least degree changed by any king of emperor.

http://alwaysproventrue.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/pilate-stone_israel-museum_jerusalem.jpg
The Pilate Stone
"But when he steadfastly refused this petition (for he was a man of a very inflexible disposition, and very merciless as well as very obstinate), they cried out: ‘Do not cause a sedition; do not make war upon us; do not destroy the peace which exists. The honour of the emperor is not identical with dishonour to the ancient laws; let it not be to you a pretence for heaping insult on our nation. Tiberius is not desirous that any of our laws or customs shall be destroyed. And if you yourself say that he is, show us either some command from him, or some letter, or something of the kind, that we, who have been sent to you as ambassadors, may cease to trouble you, and may address our supplications to your master.’

“But this last sentence exasperated him in the greatest possible degree, as he feared least they might in reality go on an embassy to the emperor, and might impeach him with respect to other particulars of his government, in respect of his corruption, and his acts of insolence, and his rapine, and his habit of insulting people, and his cruelty, and his continual murders of people untried and uncondemned, and his never ending, and gratuitous, and most grievous inhumanity. Therefore, being exceedingly angry, and being at all times a man of most ferocious passions, he was in great perplexity, neither venturing to take down what he had once set up, nor wishing to do any thing which could be acceptable to his subjects, and at the same time being sufficiently acquainted with the firmness of Tiberius on these points. And those who were in power in our nation, seeing this, and perceiving that he was inclined to change his mind as to what he had done, but that he was not willing to be thought to do so, wrote a most supplicatory letter to Tiberius. And he, when he had read it, what did he say of Pilate, and what threats did he utter against him! But it is beside our purpose at present to relate to you how very angry he was, although he was not very liable to sudden anger; since the facts speak for themselves; for immediately, without putting any thing off till the next day, he wrote a letter, reproaching and reviling him in the most bitter manner for his act of unprecedented audacity and wickedness, and commanding him immediately to take down the shields and to convey them away from the metropolis of Judaea to Caesarea, on the sea which had been named Caesarea Augusta, after his grandfather, in order that they might be set up in the temple of Augustus. And accordingly, they were set up in that edifice. And in this way he provided for two matters: both for the honour due to the emperor, and for the preservation of the ancient customs of the city.”

 

[patrick457]

It is true that since early Christianity there has been a sort of movement in certain sectors to exonerate Pilate (and by extension, the Romans) of any involvement in Jesus’ death, preferring instead to lay the blame squarely on the Jews. Already in the apocryphal Gospel of Peter (early 2nd century), Pilate is absolved of any possible guilt whatsoever: the one who passes the sentence is Herod, who in turn hands Jesus over to “the people” to be mocked and crucified.

But of the Jews none washed the hands, neither Herod nor any one of his judges. And since they would not wash Pilate rose up, and then Herod the king orders that the Lord be taken away, speaking to them, “What I ordered you to do to Him, do.” Now there was standing there Joseph the friend of Pilate and the Lord, and, knowing they were about to crucify Him, came to Pilate and requested the body of the Lord for burial, and Pilate, sending to Herod, requested His body. And Herod said, “Brother Pilate, even if none had requested Him we would have buried Him, since also Sabbath is dawning. For it is written in the Law: ‘The sun must not set on him that has been murdered.’” And he handed Him over to the people before the first day of the Unleavened, their feast.

Now having taken the Lord, running, they were pushing Him and saying, “Let us drag along the Son of God, having obtained authority over Him.” And they clothed Him with purple and set Him upon a chair of judgment, saying, “Judge rightly, King of Israel!” And one of them, having brought a thorny wreath-crown, set it upon the head of the Lord, and others, standing, were spitting in His eyes, and the rest struck His cheeks. Others were jabbing Him with a reed-staff, and some scourged Him, saying, “With such honor let us honor the son of God.” And they brought two wrongdoers and crucified the Lord in the midst of them, but He was silent as having no pain. And they, when they set upright the cross, inscribed that ‘THIS IS THE KING OF ISRAEL.’ And having set His garments before Him, they divided them up and cast the lot upon them. Now a certain one of those wrongdoers reviled them, saying, “We have thus been made to suffer for the wrongs which we have done; but this one, having become savior of men, what injustice has he done to you?” And they, having become angry at Him, commanded that there be no leg-breaking, that He might die tormented.

Now it was noontime, and darkness prevailed over all Judaea, and they were alarmed and anxious lest the sun had set, since he was yet living. [For] it is written for them: ‘the sun must not set on him that has been murdered.’ And a certain one of them said: “Give Him to drink gall with wine-vinegar.” And having mixed, they gave Him to drink: and they fulfilled all things and consummated their sins on their own head. But many went around with lamps, thinking that it was night, and they fell down. And the Lord shouted, saying, “My Power, O Power, you have abandoned me!” And having said, He was taken up.

Soon enough, the idea that Pilate was a ‘secret Christian’ began to emerge. Tertullian, writing in the 3rd century, claims that Tiberius received a report from Pilate (who was, according to him, “in his secret heart already a Christian”) “from Syria Palestine which had revealed the truth of Christ’s divinity” (Apologeticus 5.2; cf. 21.24). Starting from the 4th-5th centuries, we begin to see the tradition develop by looking at the apocryphal literature from the period, like the Acts of Pilate or the Paradosis Pilati.