What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[Anna_Scott]

First, I need to know a couple of things: Who is your priest?

I have several priests.

Christ is my High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 6:17-20 (ESV): 17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. 19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, 20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
**
Hebrews 7:14-28 (ESV):** 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

15 This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, 16who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life. 17For it is witnessed of him,
“You are a priest forever,
after the order of Melchizedek.”

18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness 19(for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

20 And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, 21but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him:
“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind,
‘You are a priest forever.’”

22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. 23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost[a] those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. 27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever.
Footnotes: a.Hebrews 7:25 That is, completely; or at all times

who is the mediator between you and god?

jesus christ is. However, his death on the cross does not automatically make me a christian, and doesn’t teach me everything i need to know about his requirements in this life.

My priests are my teachers - they teach me the scriptures and the holy tradition, and this is how i know that jesus died for my sins in the first place (since i wasn’t there, at the time - i didn’t personally witness it) - and what it means to me, and how i am supposed to respond, etc.

Praise God, we have found a point of agreement! Christ is indeed our one and only mediator.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 (ESV): 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

must we have an earthly authority to pray to god?
jmcrae;5366348:

we aren’t talking about praying - anybody can pray, even heretics, and even people who know absolutely nothing about god at all.

We are talking about learning what is true about god, and what is not true (because i think hopefully you would agree that we have to believe what is true about god, and reject whatever is false), and about learning right from wrong (because we have to obey god, but if we don’t know what he has commanded, it’s kind of hard to obey him), and how we are supposed to live out our faith day to day, so as to be a pleasing offering to god at the moment of our death.

I think we have some common ground here. I share the desire to learn all that is true about God. Of course, I want to reject what is false. I also want to live a life faithful to God, until the moment of death.

Obviously, I disagree that the Catholic Church is the only instrument of Salvation and knowledge of God.

I think I can safely make the observation that you and I could continue this dialogue until we take our last breath. But, I think, after a while, the argument becomes counter productive.

Jesus is my Lord and Savior. I have experienced His miracles again and again. I am overwhelmed by His love and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Would you judge my heart? Can you really rule out the possibility that I have found the Salvation of Christ, that he guides me and teaches me through the power of His Word with the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

Are Christians not “like living stones being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ”? Are we not “a people for His own possession, that we may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called us out of darkness into His marvelous light”?

 

[jmcrae]

Christ is my High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.

And you can’t have a High Priest without a cadre of priests working under and with him.

Hebrews 6:17-20 (ESV): 17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. 19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, 20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Melchizedek, as you will no doubt recall, gave bread and wine for the Thanksgiving (Eucharistic) Sacrifice - just as our priests offer the bread and wine of the Eucharist, which is then transfigured by Christ into His own body and blood, soul and divinity.

But if there is no sacrificing of bread and wine, then where is this priesthood of Melchizedek?

I think we have some common ground here. I share the desire to learn all that is true about God. Of course, I want to reject what is false. I also want to live a life faithful to God, until the moment of death.

Then it must be very worrisome to you, that each brand of Protestantism has its own variety of teaching, with no pedigree to that teaching that links it back to the Apostles.

Obviously, I disagree that the Catholic Church is the only instrument of Salvation and knowledge of God.

God can certainly save souls outside of the Church, but if God did not intend for us to be members of the Church, then why would He have established it? (Matthew 16:18-19)

Jesus is my Lord and Savior. I have experienced His miracles again and again. I am overwhelmed by His love and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

That’s a good beginning!

Would you judge my heart?

Of course not - that would be a mortal sin. Only God can judge you. But God will judge you very honestly. God is not simply a mirror reflection of your own conclusions and ideas. He has ideas of His own - which might not match with yours. You can disagree with me all you want, but bear in mind that it’s always a bad idea to disagree with God.

Can you really rule out the possibility that I have found the Salvation of Christ, that he guides me and teaches me through the power of His Word with the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

If so, then, unknowingly to yourself, you have received this through the Church. If you read the Bible and found Jesus in it, thank Pope St, Innocent I for giving you the Bible in 405 AD for making the decree that these 46 books of the Old Testament and 27 books of the New Testament are to be consdered inspired of the Holy Spirit, and to be read out at Mass, and to be studied by theologians to discern the Word of God. If you prayed to God silently in your own words, thank St. Teresa of Avila for discovering and promoting the idea of mental prayer. If you used logic to discern that God created the world, and thus, yourself, thank St. Thomas Aquinas, for discovering how to apply the principles of logic to the things of faith.

Are Christians not “like living stones being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ”? Are we not “a people for His own possession, that we may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called us out of darkness into His marvelous light”?

That is the very definition of the Catholic Church.

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

Going back to the original question.
What unites us is the great treasure we have in Jesus Christ, which is more precious than anything else in this world. When the eyes of our heart are set upon Him and our ears our tuned to what He has to say to us then our difference fade away. For far greater is He who is in us than he who is in the world. In His Light so many of our differences become dim and fade for the Love of God draws us in to where and to whom we long to be with. What else could we possibly need more than communion with God?
John says it far better than I and in apostolic authority implores us to listen to what he has to say. Is this not a good read to start our morning?

1Jo 4:2-17
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that He loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and His love is perfected in us.
By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as He is so also are we in this world.

May we rest our all in Him,
Maranantha Erchomai Kyrios.

 

[Anna_Scott]

And you can’t have a High Priest without a cadre of priests working under and with him.

As I said last night, after awhile this argument becomes counter productive. There is no way that you can convince me that I need a “cadre of priests” working “under and with” Christ.

When Christ became our High Priest, He abolished the Levitical Priesthood. So, now you are telling me that the abolished Levitical Priesthood was replaced by a “cadre of priests”; and we have to go through this cadre of Priests, to get to Christ, to get to God?

Melchizedek, as you will no doubt recall, gave bread and wine for the Thanksgiving (Eucharistic) Sacrifice - just as our priests offer the bread and wine of the Eucharist, which is then transfigured by Christ into His own body and blood, soul and divinity. But if there is no sacrificing of bread and wine, then where is this priesthood of Melchizedek?

 

[lutheran_guest]

why do you call yourself Catholic???

a Catholic is someone who accepts the teachings of the Catholic Church…

Thanks for asking.

I would like also to thank Anna Scott from this thread for many well informed posts,clear thinking and the request to jmcrae (see #716) to read this website’s encyclopedia on “Catholic”. An excerpt:

Vincent of Lerins (c. 434). His canon of Catholicity is “That which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all.” “This”, he adds, “is what is truly and properly Catholic” (Commonitorium, I, ii). >>

The Creed is a good basis that fits Vincent’s definition because it essentially is the fundamental of faith representing a common denominator Christians believe in. St Cyril’s was also good, but too long to paste in this discussion. It seems that “universal” stops here with lines of authority or “unity” (dis-unity?) . The discussion describes the protestant view of unity as a false notion: “Thus most Protestants think that the only union necessary for the Church is that which comes from faith, hope, and love toward Christ; in worshipping the same God, obeying the same Lord, and in believing the same fundamental truths which are necessary for salvation.”

In general the universal pertinence of a tenet is decreased as the level of abstraction it is described in is decreased. For example the commandment: “Love God above all else and love thy neighbor as thyself” and then a lesser abstraction (10 commandments) and then the 613 Mitzvot at an even lower level of abstraction or better described as highly specific and clearly NOT universal. Christ maintained universality by commanding at the highest level of abstraction, and then providing examples of how to think and understand those in the parables, which in Divine Universality had specificity and highly instructive abstract imagery both!

One answer to your question: I had called myself Catholic because I attend a Catholic Church and have found that to be an essential part of my existence. God blesses me with his presence at the Holy Mass and I will not give it up. There are other Christian denominations I have attended where I am convinced God reigns and showers blessings as well (sorry if this was heretical). This website’s encyclopedia exemplifies the complex specificity of the meaning to “Catholic” as the Roman Catholic Church defines it. That definition of “Catholic” (Universal) ironically seemed self defeating by it’s highly specific, exclusionary nature. The article “Catholic” which refers to other articles (“unity”,“Church”, and “Christendom”) states:
“Not only must the true Church be one by an internal and spiritual union, but this union must also be external and visible, consisting in and growing out of a unity of faith, worship, and government.”

Phil. 1:6 “I’m convinced that God, who began this good work in you, will carry it through to completion on the day of Christ Jesus.”

Paul clearly wrote in Philipians that we should be united. I didn’t see “government” in his requirements. :

Phil 2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

God has applied boundless grace to save all that will accept it. We would be naive (and blasphemous) to think that our efforts accomplish what God accomplishes through us and for us.

God bless all of you that we can universally share that essential childlike faith.

 

[jmcrae]

You are telling me how we would have no Bible without the Catholic Church. Yet, where are the Scriptures, for this Bible, to back up what you believe? I looked back over your posts. You keep saying what you believe; but where is the Authority of God’s Word to justify what you are saying?

Christ is God’s Word.

Christ established One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. That Church produced the Bible, but it did not put absolutely everything that we need to know into the Bible - nor even one tenth of it.

We were participating in the Sacraments of the Catholic Church and asking Mother Mary for her prayers of intercession, for at least 20 years before the first word of the New Testament was ever written down (St. Paul began to write the Letter to the Thessalonians, the first book of the New Testament ever to be written down, some time in the late 50s AD), and it was not until 405 AD that that word became considered to be God-breathed.

So, no - my faith isn’t founded on the Scriptures. It’s founded on the person of Jesus Christ, who established the Catholic Church on Peter to proclaim His life, death and resurrection.

One. Holy. Catholic. Apostolic.

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

Christ is God’s Word.
So, no - my faith isn’t founded on the Scriptures. It’s founded on the person of Jesus Christ, who established the Catholic Church on Peter to proclaim His life, death and resurrection.
One. Holy. Catholic. Apostolic.

Hi J,
It would seem that you are in disagreement with St Paul, who said in his teaching of the young pastor Timothy,

2Tim 3:14-17 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus

. **All Scripture is God breathed **and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.
There are so many places in Scripture that the Lord’s prophets, His apostles and saints and even Jesus Himself refer to Scripture that I find it hard to believe that anyone could dismiss it as not being God breathed. It did not become God breathed in 405AD but was always God breathed. In fact the Catholic church excommunicated Marcion for saying that the Hebrew Scriptures and all other Books of the Testament of Christ, except Paul’s epistle were not from the Holy Spirit en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope
Jesus said

Mar 12:10 "Have you not read this Scripture: 'The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
Luk 4:21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
Luk 22:37 “For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors.’ For what is written about me has its fulfillment.”
Jhn 10:35 "If he called them gods to whom the word of God came–and **Scripture cannot be broken-- **
Jhn 13:18 "I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’
Jhn 17:12 "While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. ****
St Peter - speaking and teaching highprayer: ex Cathedra of course) **by the Holy Spirit **

1Peter 2:6 For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
2Peter 1:19-21 And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

The Apostles and leaders of the Church Christ founded

Jhn 2:22 When therefore He was raised from the dead, **His disciples **remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.
Jhn 7:38 “Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’”
Jhn 19:28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), “I thirst.”
Jhn 19:36-37 For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”
Jhn 20:9 for as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that He must rise from the dead.
Act 8:32,35 Now **the passage of the Scripture that He was reading ** (from the prophet Isaiah 700 years before the birth of Christ) was this: "Like a sheep He was led to the slaughter and like a Lamb before its shearer is silent, so He opens not his mouth.
Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus.
Rom 4:3 (Paul Teaching the Roman church) For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Gal 3:8 And **the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand **to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
1Ti 4:13 Until I come, (1) devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to (2) exhortation, (3) to teaching.
Jam 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”–and he was called a friend of God.

So my question is if Jesus Himself stated Scripture cannot be brokenand & if Peter apostle & first pope stated Scripture was of the Holy Spirit, why do you state that the RCC only came to this conclusion in 405 AD? Am I missing something?

Pacis quod spes ut est ex Sarcalogos exsisto nobis totus,
in Christo Iesu, Erchomai Kyrios.
:bible1:

 

[Anna_Scott]

Hi J,
It would seem that you are in disagreement with St Paul, who said in his teaching of the young pastor Timothy,

There are so many places in Scripture that the Lord’s prophets, His apostles and saints and even Jesus Himself refer to Scripture that I find it hard to believe that anyone could dismiss it as not being God breathed. It did not become God breathed in 405AD but was always God breathed. In fact the Catholic church excommunicated Marcion for saying that the Hebrew Scriptures and all other Books of the Testament of Christ, except Paul’s epistle were not from the Holy Spirit en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope
Jesus said

St Peter - speaking and teaching highprayer: ex Cathedra of course) **by the Holy Spirit **

The Apostles and leaders of the Church Christ founded

So my question is if Jesus Himself stated Scripture cannot be brokenand & if Peter apostle & first pope stated Scripture was of the Holy Spirit, why do you state that the RCC only came to this conclusion in 405 AD? Am I missing something?

Pacis quod spes ut est ex Sarcalogos exsisto nobis totus,
in Christo Iesu, Erchomai Kyrios.
:bible1:

Erchomai Kyrios:

I praise God for your words and quotations from the Holy Scripture. You have testified to the power of God’s Word and Authority of Holy Scripture!

As Hebrews 4:12 tells us: "For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

So, the Holy Scriptures are not just words on a page. They are indeed 'Living and Active."

How can one say that “Christ is God’s Word” and then say “my faith isn’t founded on the Scriptures”? I am saddened by such a statement.

Your words do edify our Lord, and testify to His power and His love.

As you said in a previous post, this is not about winning or losing. This is about finding God’s truth and lifting up one another in love.

In my last post, yesterday, I had to acknowledge that I reached a point of speaking out of “pure irritation,” and that is not where I want to be. I had to really pray about my direction and purpose in participating on this Forum. I want to think, speak, and act in God’s Will and not my own. It is far too easy to lose sight of this.

So, I pray that God will speak to all of us, that we may reach out to one another in love and humility. You, Erchomai Kyrios, demonstrate this spirit in every thing you write.

Humbly,
Anna

 

[superdave69]

As I read these threads, I see that it is easier to attack other peoples belief, with out real study of why Catholic’s believe the way the churches teaches.Why don’t you get the book The Essential Catholic Survival Guide, from Catholic Answers. I am 70 years old and was a Southern Bapist for 5 years and the Holy Spirt moved me to study Scripture and I did. I studied Church of Christ for 3 years. Assembly of God for one year. Started a bible Study at my last command in Washington DC. We Started with 3 me as a bapist, a church of Christ and a assembly of God. We were all in the Navy. It grew to 65 people. The rules were simple no attacking others on their belief and had to back up your statement with the bible. I converted to Roman Catholic 1985. I still study and have a daily prayer life. I make sure in my mind and soul I belong here, and I do. You see we do not believe the POPE holds the keys to heaven. He is here to protect them along with the Church. The Pope sins just like we do,He is Human and Catholic’s Respects his office. Pope Benedict XVI is one of the most greatest bible scholars in the World. Most of my friends are not Catholic and I will see some of them in heaven. It took a lot of prayer and study for me to become a Catholic 50 + years. It humors me as I use to make the same arguments. God bless each and every one of you and The Lord Jesus Christ is the only true answer and the way, The Holy Spirit will help you bring the truth and Knowledge for you and your Soul

God Bless

 

[jmcrae]

There are so many places in Scripture that the Lord’s prophets, His apostles and saints and even Jesus Himself refer to Scripture that I find it hard to believe that anyone could dismiss it as not being God breathed.:

Of course it was always God-breathed - just as the world has always been round, even when people believed it to be disk-shaped or flat. However, the knowledge of which books were the ones that were God-breathed did not come to the human race until 405 AD, through the infallible declaration from Pope Innocent I.

Obviously, some books had already been suspected to be, notably the 46 books of the Old Testament and the four Gospels, But the complete list was not known for certain until 405 AD, and not until the full list was known, did it become possible to translate and promulgate Bibles.

 

[Anna_Scott]

As I read these threads, I see that it is easier to attack other peoples belief, with out real study of why Catholic’s believe the way the churches teaches.Why don’t you get the book The Essential Catholic Survival Guide, from Catholic Answers. I am 70 years old and was a Southern Bapist for 5 years and the Holy Spirt moved me to study Scripture and I did. I studied Church of Christ for 3 years. Assembly of God for one year. Started a bible Study at my last command in Washington DC. We Started with 3 me as a bapist, a church of Christ and a assembly of God. We were all in the Navy. It grew to 65 people. The rules were simple no attacking others on their belief and had to back up your statement with the bible. I converted to Roman Catholic 1985. I still study and have a daily prayer life. I make sure in my mind and soul I belong here, and I do. You see we do not believe the POPE holds the keys to heaven. He is here to protect them along with the Church. The Pope sins just like we do,He is Human and Catholic’s Respects his office. Pope Benedict XVI is one of the most greatest bible scholars in the World. Most of my friends are not Catholic and I will see some of them in heaven. It took a lot of prayer and study for me to become a Catholic 50 + years. It humors me as I use to make the same arguments. God bless each and every one of you and The Lord Jesus Christ is the only true answer and the way, The Holy Spirit will help you bring the truth and Knowledge for you and your Soul

God Bless

superdave69:
I think you are right. We should be able to discuss our differences without personal attacks.

I appreciate what you have shared on this post. I agree with you, as you said, “The Lord Jesus Christ is the only true answer and the way, The Holy Spirit will help you bring the truth and Knowledge for you and your Soul.”

Humbled,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Christ is God’s Word.

Christ established One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. That Church produced the Bible, but it did not put absolutely everything that we need to know into the Bible - nor even one tenth of it.

We were participating in the Sacraments of the Catholic Church and asking Mother Mary for her prayers of intercession, for at least 20 years before the first word of the New Testament was ever written down (St. Paul began to write the Letter to the Thessalonians, the first book of the New Testament ever to be written down, some time in the late 50s AD), and it was not until 405 AD that that word became considered to be God-breathed.

So, no - my faith isn’t founded on the Scriptures. It’s founded on the person of Jesus Christ, who established the Catholic Church on Peter to proclaim His life, death and resurrection.

One. Holy. Catholic. Apostolic.

jmcrae: I know that we have had serious disagreements; but, please let us be friends.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thanks for asking.

I would like also to thank Anna Scott from this thread for many well informed posts,clear thinking and the request to jmcrae (see #716) to read this website’s encyclopedia on “Catholic”. An excerpt:

Vincent of Lerins (c. 434). His canon of Catholicity is “That which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all.” “This”, he adds, “is what is truly and properly Catholic” (Commonitorium, I, ii). >>

Thank you so much for you kind words. Yesterday, was a tough day. I was beginning to think that all I had written was in vain.

I appreciate your quotes from the Catholic Encyclopedia regarding the definition of “Catholic.” I didn’t get a response from Jmcrae, and I really didn’t have the energy to press my request.

The Creed is a good basis that fits Vincent’s definition because it essentially is the fundamental of faith representing a common denominator Christians believe in. St Cyril’s was also good, but too long to paste in this discussion. It seems that “universal” stops here with lines of authority or “unity” (dis-unity?) . The discussion describes the protestant view of unity as a false notion: “Thus most Protestants think that the only union necessary for the Church is that which comes from faith, hope, and love toward Christ; in worshipping the same God, obeying the same Lord, and in believing the same fundamental truths which are necessary for salvation.”

The history of the word “Catholic” is a complicated one and evolved over time, as you are alluding to here.

In general the universal pertinence of a tenet is decreased as the level of abstraction it is described in is decreased. For example the commandment: “Love God above all else and love thy neighbor as thyself” and then a lesser abstraction (10 commandments) and then the 613 Mitzvot at an even lower level of abstraction or better described as highly specific and clearly NOT universal. Christ maintained universality by commanding at the highest level of abstraction, and then providing examples of how to think and understand those in the parables, which in Divine Universality had specificity and highly instructive abstract imagery both!

This is an interesting view point. I have not heard this expressed in such a way.

One answer to your question: I had called myself Catholic because I attend a Catholic Church and have found that to be an essential part of my existence. God blesses me with his presence at the Holy Mass and I will not give it up. There are other Christian denominations I have attended where I am convinced God reigns and showers blessings as well (sorry if this was heretical).

I was wondering about this myself. I can understand what you are saying.

This website’s encyclopedia exemplifies the complex specificity of the meaning to “Catholic” as the Roman Catholic Church defines it. That definition of “Catholic” (Universal) ironically seemed self defeating by it’s highly specific, exclusionary nature. The article “Catholic” which refers to other articles (“unity”,“Church”, and “Christendom”) states: “Not only must the true Church be one by an internal and spiritual union, but this union must also be external and visible, consisting in and growing out of a unity of faith, worship, and government.”

Thank you for taking the time to quote this.

Phil. 1:6 “I’m convinced that God, who began this good work in you, will carry it through to completion on the day of Christ Jesus.” Paul clearly wrote in Philipians that we should be united. I didn’t see “government” in his requirements :

Phil 2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Beautiful Scripture and very humbling.

God has applied boundless grace to save all that will accept it. We would be naive (and blasphemous) to think that our efforts accomplish what God accomplishes through us and for us. God bless all of you that we can universally share that essential childlike faith.

Agreed. God’s grace is indeed “boundless.” Without God working through us, empowering us with the Holy Spirit, all our efforts would be in vain.

Anna

 

[superdave69]

Anna thank you for your kind words. I can tell from your post that you are a fine Christian Lady .
Each person will have to face Our Lord Jesus Christ upon our passing from this world to his heavenly kingdom. I pray for this forum daily. Remember what counts before the Lord is to dwell in his love and to make his love shine forth for others.Keep up your courage! We too can make our life a gift of self for the love of the Lord Jesus Christ and in him, of every member of the human family. We are Christ disciples today. Shine his light and show the world the reason for hope that resonates within you. Tell others about the truth thats set you free. Every day is a blessed day and every one on the forum needs to pray that we seek Gods wisdom and Christ love to spread the Gospel. Jesus Christ dying on the cross for our sins set us free and Salvation can only come through him, their is no other way. Amen

God Bless

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna thank you for your kind words. I can tell from your post that you are a fine Christian Lady .
Each person will have to face Our Lord Jesus Christ upon our passing from this world to his heavenly kingdom. I pray for this forum daily. Remember what counts before the Lord is to dwell in his love and to make his love shine forth for others.Keep up your courage! We too can make our life a gift of self for the love of the Lord Jesus Christ and in him, of every member of the human family. We are Christ disciples today. Shine his light and show the world the reason for hope that resonates within you. Tell others about the truth thats set you free. Every day is a blessed day and every one on the forum needs to pray that we seek Gods wisdom and Christ love to spread the Gospel. Jesus Christ dying on the cross for our sins set us free and Salvation can only come through him, their is no other way. Amen

God Bless

superdave69:
Beautifully said. What a difference a day can make.

I am blessed to be here with all of you.

Anna

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Tell others about the truth that sets you free.

knowledge is power but ignorance is bliss

Which one is freedom? I guess it depends on what you believe enslaves you

 

[Peter_J]

Thanks for asking.

I would like also to thank Anna Scott from this thread for many well informed posts,clear thinking and the request to jmcrae (see #716) to read this website’s encyclopedia on “Catholic”. An excerpt:

Vincent of Lerins (c. 434). His canon of Catholicity is “That which has been believed everywhere, always, and by all.” “This”, he adds, “is what is truly and properly Catholic” (Commonitorium, I, ii). >>

Hi lutheran_guest,

Thank you for posting that. I think a lot of us here share your desire for unity.

A question: when you say ‘this website’s encyclopedia’ do you mean the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia? (Not trying to be nit-picky, just want to make sure I understand you right.)

Don’t be a stranger.

 

[Erchomai_Kyrios]

As I read these threads, I see that it is easier to attack other peoples belief, with out real study of why Catholic’s believe the way the churches teaches.Why don’t you get the book The Essential Catholic Survival Guide, from Catholic Answers. I am 70 years old and was a Southern Bapist for 5 years and the Holy Spirt moved me to study Scripture and I did. I studied Church of Christ for 3 years. Assembly of God for one year. Started a bible Study at my last command in Washington DC. We Started with 3 me as a bapist, a church of Christ and a assembly of God. We were all in the Navy. It grew to 65 people. The rules were simple no attacking others on their belief and had to back up your statement with the bible. I converted to Roman Catholic 1985. I still study and have a daily prayer life. I make sure in my mind and soul I belong here, and I do. You see we do not believe the POPE holds the keys to heaven. He is here to protect them along with the Church. The Pope sins just like we do,He is Human and Catholic’s Respects his office. Pope Benedict XVI is one of the most greatest bible scholars in the World. Most of my friends are not Catholic and I will see some of them in heaven. It took a lot of prayer and study for me to become a Catholic 50 + years. It humors me as I use to make the same arguments. God bless each and every one of you and The Lord Jesus Christ is the only true answer and the way, The Holy Spirit will help you bring the truth and Knowledge for you and your Soul

God Bless

So you’re a Navy man too! I’ve many great memories of my time in the USN and met many good Christians there. I’d say it was a turning point in my life.
I would say that it sounds like a Bible study I would have loved to have been a part of and one that appears where God used you in a big way. Certainly I believe that one thing Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Protestants can all agree upon is that we all want to know Jesus more and more and to be filled with the Holy Spirit more and more in order to serve His great cause more and more. I’ve seen many good Christians in many different churches and I have also noted the inverse of that as well. Sometimes I even get concerned when I perceive churchianity winning the day instead of Christianity but then I remember Jesus’ Words 'the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". But I do believe we have to be mindful of the leaven of the Pharisees, why else would Jesus have warned us? We have only to look to them in order to see how the Pharisitical leaders used the power of their own brand of churchianity in that day against the very Promised One, Christ Jesus, who came to save. I think, at the end of the day Christ is either going to say to those claiming His Sacred Name, “Well done my good and faithful servant, enter into my rest for I was hungry and you fed me, naked and you clothed me, in prison and you visited me, …” or He will say to those presuming that they were actually doing God a favor by extricating so called devils from their midst, “Depart from Me you workers of iniquity for I never knew you!” What better way to be a true follower than to hang on His every Word and honor Him with the life He has created in us for His purpose. Even our next breath is truly all His.
May the Lord bless you Dave,
Erchomai Kyrios.

 

[lutheran_guest]

Hi lutheran_guest,

Thank you for posting that. I think a lot of us here share your desire for unity.

A question: when you say ‘this website’s encyclopedia’ do you mean the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia? (Not trying to be nit-picky, just want to make sure I understand you right.)

Don’t be a stranger.

Hello Peter

Thanks for reading it, and thanks to the others reading also! The opening index page of the encyclopedia states 1907-1912 and then the 1913 edition and an index followed as volume 16 in 1914.

On the opening page of forums.catholic-questions.org/ there are tabs at the top which may be selected. reading them from left to right : faith, forums (this thread is in forums), groups, ENCYCLOPEDIA, chastity, pilgrimages, shop.

The encyclopedia url is oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Home

click on “C” to open a list containing “Catholic” which is a link to the url:

oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Catholic

Computers and the internet are tremendously enabling, aren’t they? Now if I could only learn to type.

 

[altabz]

What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians? There is one quotation that will sum up the answer to this question;

“There are not over a hundred people who hate the roman Catholic Church; there are millions however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.” by Archbishop Fulton Sheen

I encourage everyone especially the non-catholics to read Scott Hahns’ book titled"ROME SWEET HOME THE" OUR JOURNEY TOWARDS CATHOLICSM there you will find all the answer you need.Amen!!!