What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

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Disciple96
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 In my posting the freedom I referred to was not 'freedom of the mob' or 'truth by concensus'. Indeed, quite the opposite. Theological decisions were made by the early Councils of the church by majority vote, and, yes, even in 1870 when the infallibility of the Pope on matters of faith and morals was declared. That was 'truth by concensus' if you will. I'm aware that traditional Catholics believe that the church cannot err, certainly a major obstacle to unity.

 The freedom I refer to is individual freedom. You dismiss it as 'self-will' and 'self-love', the usual reply when one defends the right of the individual to form his/her own opinion. On the contrary, millions of us (including likely the majority of US Catholics, judging from polls) reserve the right to think for themselves and accept what they can but sideline what they can't believe. The majority of married Catholics, for example, use articifial birth control. A poll even shows that the majority of US Catholic cannot believe in transubstantiation. Does this automatically excommunicate them? If so, the Catholic % of Americans drops dcramatically.

  But let me reiterate my main point. Personally, I am not concerned whether Christians believe in this or that doctrine as long as they have a simply faith in Christ and seek to live in love and charity with one another. When we reach those pearly gates I suspect that St. Peter won't be at all interested in such minor matters as the church we attended, or whether we believed or disbelieved in the Immaculate Conception. (I'm speaking allegorically here, of course.) St. Peter will want to know whether we loved God and one another. My guess is that people of all faiths will be admitted, but those who promoted hate, arrogance, discrimination, wanton warfare, etc., will have a lot of explaining to do. Possibly they will be admitted, but only if they can prove that they were innocent victims of brain-washing, as millions are. Sadly, certainly governments (yes, even ours - and I'm an avid patriot) and churches (including mine) have been guilty of pushing evil causes over the centuries when they didn't know better. Possibly St. Peter will weigh that ignorance in our favor. Hopefully. Is the slaveholder Jefferson in heaven? Hm. I'm not sure. He certainly didn't embrace traditional Christianity. But maybe he got credit for his ideals - "all men are created equal" - even though he didn't live by this philosophy. How was his adultery with Sally Hemings judged? I'll have to leave such judgments up to God, and I suggest we all do the same. As I recall the Bible says something about God's ways are not our ways, so we need to be humble when it comes to any pious claims we are tempted to make about our particular church, etc.

   We need to judge less and love more. God bless people of every faith and may religion serve as a bridge rather than as a barrier.
 
Roman_Catholic said:
Rev and I have already discussed this. He does not consider Catholics and him to be of the same religion.

See post #228 forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5498453#post5498453

God bless
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Ok lets not start again. Yes I said 2 different religions but what I meant was Catholics and Baptists believe in one God the same God but have different ways of worship. Then answer me this, on the upper right corner there is information section they say
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Why does it ask religion if we are all the same? Shouldn’t it say denomonation?
See some put Catholic by religion some put Baptist some put non-denomination and others If not different why have this worded like that?
 
rev Thats a good question WHY DONT YOU ASK THE PEOPLE RUNNING THE SHOW the cathloic on here do not make the ruels, we are here like you are.
 
rev_kevin said:
Ok lets not start again. Yes I said 2 different religions but what I meant was Catholics and Baptists believe in one God the same God but have different ways of worship. Then answer me this, on the upper right corner there is information section they say
Join date
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Why does it ask religion if we are all the same? Shouldn’t it say denomonation?
See some put Catholic by religion some put Baptist some put non-denomination and others If not different why have this worded like that?
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Rev, you said it not me. Baptists and Catholics are the same religion; Christianity. Maybe it should say denomination but there are problems with that. 1) Catholics do not believe the Catholic Church is a denomination 2) it would exclude other religions ie Islam, Mormonism or even none. 3) I am a member here and I do not make the rules.

God bless you
 
Roman_Catholic said:
Rev, you said it not me. Baptists and Catholics are the same religion; Christianity. Maybe it should say denomination but there are problems with that. 1) Catholics do not believe the Catholic Church is a denomination 2) it would exclude other religions ie Islam, Mormonism or even none. 3) I am a member here and I do not make the rules.

God bless you
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rev when you read all your post look and see how many time you oh this is waht I was talhing about or this is wah I ment
 
Roy5 said:
Disciple96
Code: 
 In my posting the freedom I referred to was not 'freedom of the mob' or 'truth by concensus'. Indeed, quite the opposite. Theological decisions were made by the early Councils of the church by majority vote, and, yes, even in 1870 when the infallibility of the Pope on matters of faith and morals was declared. That was 'truth by concensus' if you will. I'm aware that traditional Catholics believe that the church cannot err, certainly a major obstacle to unity.

 The freedom I refer to is individual freedom. You dismiss it as 'self-will' and 'self-love', the usual reply when one defends the right of the individual to form his/her own opinion. On the contrary, millions of us (including likely the majority of US Catholics, judging from polls) reserve the right to think for themselves and accept what they can but sideline what they can't believe. The majority of married Catholics, for example, use articifial birth control. A poll even shows that the majority of US Catholic cannot believe in transubstantiation. Does this automatically excommunicate them? If so, the Catholic % of Americans drops dcramatically.

  But let me reiterate my main point. Personally, I am not concerned whether Christians believe in this or that doctrine as long as they have a simply faith in Christ and seek to live in love and charity with one another. When we reach those pearly gates I suspect that St. Peter won't be at all interested in such minor matters as the church we attended, or whether we believed or disbelieved in the Immaculate Conception. (I'm speaking allegorically here, of course.) St. Peter will want to know whether we loved God and one another. My guess is that people of all faiths will be admitted, but those who promoted hate, arrogance, discrimination, wanton warfare, etc., will have a lot of explaining to do. Possibly they will be admitted, but only if they can prove that they were innocent victims of brain-washing, as millions are. Sadly, certainly governments (yes, even ours - and I'm an avid patriot) and churches (including mine) have been guilty of pushing evil causes over the centuries when they didn't know better. Possibly St. Peter will weigh that ignorance in our favor. Hopefully. Is the slaveholder Jefferson in heaven? Hm. I'm not sure. He certainly didn't embrace traditional Christianity. But maybe he got credit for his ideals - "all men are created equal" - even though he didn't live by this philosophy. How was his adultery with Sally Hemings judged? I'll have to leave such judgments up to God, and I suggest we all do the same. As I recall the Bible says something about God's ways are not our ways, so we need to be humble when it comes to any pious claims we are tempted to make about our particular church, etc.

   We need to judge less and love more. God bless people of every faith and may religion serve as a bridge rather than as a barrier.
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the CC never pushed evil… that is a judgement on your part. practice what you preach, will you.

love one another doesnt mean to stop preaching the Truth to those who do not know the Truth.
Martin luther started protestantism and it is our obligation to tell you the Truth of our Lord.
we are not to let you go on believing on falsehood dictated by luther and others outside the CC.

if our Lord wanted everyone to believe whatever they want about Him, He would not have left us a Church. He did so with a purpose. it is all because of man with ichy ears along the way. if wasnt for the CC, where do you think Christianity would be today?

why dont you spend some time educating yourself about the heretical movements that have rose throught the centuries? and how the Church fought them.

it does not matter if many Catholics dont believe or practice what the Church teaches. it does not make a difference. the Church will continue to teach the Truth until the end of times. this is a promise from our Lord. to her was promised the Spirit of Truth. the Lord has never left His Church. the Church is not a democracy in which the majority dictates. we are to conform to the Church and not the other way around. she changes us and not the other way around.

you people just want to argue. why cant you accept what we have been telling you all this time? get over. either you accept or you dont.

you religion was based and found on hatreth for the CC. once you grasp this, you might find your self wonder what you are doing on the other side.
 
Hi, wisdomseeker. 🙂 Defending the Church is a noble activity and sometimes we must speak out and firmly. But I don’t think that most Protestants are enemies of the Church. You may not either, but they might get the idea that you do, ya know. 🙂

I think most Protestants today are Protestants because they have grown up in their churches, not because they are actively protesting the Catholic Church. Most Protestants I know are only dimly aware of Catholicism and don’t really know much about it. I certainly didn’t when I was a Methodist. So I don’t think that most of them are trying to reject Catholicism as much as they have never had it presented to them in a reasonable or complete way. Usually the discussions I’ve entered into with those from the various communions have been good discussions, with understanding increased on both sides. I really prefer that kind of discussion over someone who wants to beat me over the head with all the imagined and alleged evils committed by the Church.

Generally speaking, after I present the actual teachings of the Church and the reasons for them, the other person has a much clearer idea of what Catholicism is. And many actually get hold of a Catechism (I’ve also given away many copies) and begin a journey of discovering even more. I’m not trying to convert people, I am trying to present truth with reason. If they are of goodwill and they listen, then all is well. If instead they simply jump down my throat, repeating the same false charges as before, well, at least I will have done what I could.

The rest I leave to the Holy Spirit and I pray that He will enlighten them in His own good time. I figure if there are so many folks that have not yet seen the truth of the Church, it is because we have not prayed and fasted and practiced mortification and charity nearly enough, in addition to speaking and teaching whenever we can. Plenty for us to do, then, eh? 🙂
 
Disciple96
Code: 
Thank you for the civility of your latest posting. So often those of us who present a different perspective are treated with angry disrespect.

 A little personal background. My paternal family was Catholic. One of my ancestral uncles was the Archbishop of Quebec. Frankly, I am quite well-versed in Catholicism. My late and beloved wife had been a Catholic who went to parochial school. I watch EWTN with some regularity, and read such magazines as America, Commonweal, US Catholic, etc. When religion comes up in chats with Catholic friends - rarely - I find that I know quite a bit more about their faith than they do. In this particular area Catholics are the majority, as we have heavy Irish, Italian, Polish, French-Canadian and German Catholic populations. I have heard four popes in person, including Benedict XVI at Yankee Stadium last year.

  My own experience, for what it's worth - and forgive this honesty if you find it offensive -is that the more I learn of traditional Catholicism (so popular here on CAF) the more I fear that it is unduly influenced by non-Christian, often pre-Christian, influences. I honor Mary, of course, but Mariology has gone so far that it seems to smack of ancient goddess worship, even if that's not what the church intends. I believe in the real presence of Christ everywhere at all times, but transubstantiation resembles the popular idea of among the mystery cults that by eating the divine you become divine. I enjoy reading moderate Catholics. Fr. McBrien has a column every week in our daily paper and I look forward to it. He is articulate in presenting an open, ecumenical Catholicism that I find quite compatble with my open, ecumenical Protestantism. As for worship itself, I have attended many Catholic masses, and much depends upon the priest. Some are deadly, while there are priests who give them an real air of celebration, My lady friend (we both are widowed) attends mass every Sunday without fail, but she would be dismissed by most CAF participants as a cafeteria Catholic, in that she - for example - doesn't believe in transubstantiation, doubts the Immaculate Conception, and would like to see priests be allowed to marry and even women ordained (at least as Deacons).  

  In closing, I feel close to the Methodist Church as well as to Congregational and Presbyterian churches, as my career brought me to places where circumstances led me to be active in each. As you know, they are very similar, and their historic theological differences are unimportant today. As stated already, my commitment to 'big tent' Christianity is based on my need to explore freely matters of theology and such, and I need a church that permits that. That often is assailed as self-centeredness, stubborness, whatever. Believe me, if I thought for a moment that the Catholic Church was the only place to find the full truth of my faith I would convert in a moment. I simply don't believe Jesus had that in mind. You apparently believe that he did. We each are happy in our spiritual situation.

  But may God bless all believers - and, yes, non-Christian believers in God, also. I certainly don't worry for a moment about their salvation. Our God is a merciful God, else we'd all be in big trouble. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier. It will only be a bridge when we let go of our defensiveness and engage in respectful dialogue. If God wants us to be Catholics we will be. Devout Catholics certainly believe that their church will never lose out. So why do some become so stressed when people like me express a different viewpoint? I'm, of course, convinced that through our diversity we honor God, as it suggests that God is too magnificant and ultimate and mysterious for us to understand.
 
Roy5 said:
Disciple96
Code: 
Thank you for the civility of your latest posting. So often those of us who present a different perspective are treated with angry disrespect.

 A little personal background. My paternal family was Catholic. One of my ancestral uncles was the Archbishop of Quebec. Frankly, I am quite well-versed in Catholicism. My late and beloved wife had been a Catholic who went to parochial school. I watch EWTN with some regularity, and read such magazines as America, Commonweal, US Catholic, etc. When religion comes up in chats with Catholic friends - rarely - I find that I know quite a bit more about their faith than they do. In this particular area Catholics are the majority, as we have heavy Irish, Italian, Polish, French-Canadian and German Catholic populations. I have heard four popes in person, including Benedict XVI at Yankee Stadium last year.

  My own experience, for what it's worth - and forgive this honesty if you find it offensive -is that the more I learn of traditional Catholicism (so popular here on CAF) the more I fear that it is unduly influenced by non-Christian, often pre-Christian, influences. I honor Mary, of course, but Mariology has gone so far that it seems to smack of ancient goddess worship, even if that's not what the church intends. I believe in the real presence of Christ everywhere at all times, but transubstantiation resembles the popular idea of among the mystery cults that by eating the divine you become divine. I enjoy reading moderate Catholics. Fr. McBrien has a column every week in our daily paper and I look forward to it. He is articulate in presenting an open, ecumenical Catholicism that I find quite compatible with my open, ecumenical Protestantism. As for worship itself, I have attended many Catholic masses, and much depends upon the priest. Some are deadly, while there are priests who give them an real air of celebration, My lady friend (we both are widowed) attends mass every Sunday without fail, but she would be dismissed by most CAF participants as a cafeteria Catholic, in that she - for example - doesn't believe in transubstantiation, doubts the Immaculate Conception, and would like to see priests be allowed to marry and even women ordained (at least as Deacons).  

  In closing, I feel close to the Methodist Church as well as to Congregational and Presbyterian churches, as my career brought me to places where circumstances led me to be active in each. As you know, they are very similar, and their historic theological differences are unimportant today. As stated already, my commitment to 'big tent' Christianity is based on my need to explore freely matters of theology and such, and I need a church that permits that. That often is assailed as self-centeredness, stubbornness, whatever. Believe me, if I thought for a moment that the Catholic Church was the only place to find the full truth of my faith I would convert in a moment. I simply don't believe Jesus had that in mind. You apparently believe that he did. We each are happy in our spiritual situation.

  But may God bless all believers - and, yes, non-Christian believers in God, also. I certainly don't worry for a moment about their salvation. Our God is a merciful God, else we'd all be in big trouble. May religion become a bridge and not a barrier. It will only be a bridge when we let go of our defensiveness and engage in respectful dialogue. If God wants us to be Catholics we will be. Devout Catholics certainly believe that their church will never lose out. So why do some become so stressed when people like me express a different viewpoint? I'm, of course, convinced that through our diversity we honor God, as it suggests that God is too magnificent and ultimate and mysterious for us to understand.
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Thank you for this very informative and engaging post.

Appreciatively,
Mick
👍
 
By the way, Roy5, I have no problem with differing viewpoints.

As long as the people who hold those viewpoints don’t claim that their personal views are actually views taught by the Catholic Church. Unless those views actually are taught by the Church.

It’s misrepresentation, intentional or unintentional, that I have a problem with. And when it happens repeatedly, I begin to doubt that it can be unintentional.

And I think that this is reasonable and also reasonably well stated. We can state our views and that is fine. But when we claim to state what the Church does and teaches, we need to be accurate in those statements.
 
hate is the biggest obstacle between all peoples. That hate you have in your heart for those who are different is not from God. And it is not devotion. It is sown in the heart by the devil.
 
SimonArizona said:
hate is the biggest obstacle between all peoples. That hate you have in your heart for those who are different is not from God. And it is not devotion. It is sown in the heart by the devil.
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Do you think there is a great deal of hate inside Christendom, then?

Curiously,
Mick
👍
 
hate is universal. it does not indulge in favoritism. Sin wounds charity in the heart. We all have sin.
 
Roy5 said:
A Couple Brief Points

True, millions of people find comfort in a faith that is essentially monarchial, not unlike the monarchies of medieval times. The Papacy resembles that and seems to be modeled after the Roman emperor tradition. People like me, however, like the freedom to check things out, even ‘dabble’ in heresies if you will. I have changed my mind on a few theological matters over the years and need that freedom to do so. Once I was heavily oriented toward Quakerism, and I still love the Society of Friends. Now I have moved more toward mainsteam liberal Protestantism, the variety that believes in a ‘big tent’ and welcomes all those who seeks to follow Christ. This includes everybody from conservative Baptists to those who hold on to Christianity by a thread, such as, say, many Unitarians. I appreciate the freedom to have vigorous discussions of belief without feeling compelled to believe what I may find simply unbelieveable. What some may see as confusion, I see as diversity, and I like it.
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Well…uh…you sort of just proved my point there. Thanks?
 
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