It seems to me that the prime duty of the Gospel is not to spread itself but the duty of spreading the Gospel belongs to the Church. “He who hears you hears Me and he who hears Me hears Him who sent Me.” What separates us is the answer to the question, “Who is the One we must listen to and what is the place to go to to hear Him?” Catholics say, “Rome” while Protestants say, “Scriptura”. With Love, bobmck
Hi, again all. I posted the above on June 13; here is an addendum to it.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hi All.
The biggest obstacle in short I think is free will and uninformed conscience. John 17: 21-23. May they all be one, just as Father, you you are in me and I am in You so that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe it was You who sent Me. I have given them glory You have given to Me,that they may be one as we are one. With Me in them and You in Me. May they be so perfected in unity that the world will recognise that it was You who sent Me, and that You have loved them, as You Have loved Me.
=Onenow 1. Jesus in the garden said Your will not mine. With all the denominations that are at odds with one another with different understandings, what does the world see but confusion
Check the Catholic Church out on what it believed in matters of faith and morals 2000yrs ago and still believes and teaches today.
Peace, onenow 1:hm mm:
opcorn:So beautifully said!!! bobmckHi, again all. I posted the above on June 13; here is an addendum to it.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caiaphas, the Jewish high priest said:
“He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.”
John 11:51-52
"I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me, as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice.
So there shall be one flock, and one shepherd."John 10:14-16
Did you notice that Jesus said only one flock and one shepherd? And did you also notice ?
This : Judges 21: 25 In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes."
If all our brothers and sisters in Christ would acknowledge this one truth, I believe progress could be maid. Of course it would take time and a lot of diligent study of the true history of the Catholic Church.
Peace, onenow 1
Hm! I haven't read all these postings, but let me give the response of a liberal Protestant as opposed to one who believes everything in the Bible. I can't. The first eleven chapters of Genesis are myth and/or legend. I certainly don't believe that Joshua was ordered to slaughter everyone in Jericho and Ai, that Saul was commanded to kill every last Amalekite. I don't believe that Joshua made the sun stand still, that we should not suffer a witch to live, that a king was great (David) even though he stole another man's wife and sent her husband off to battle to be killed, that Solomon with his 1000 wives and 600 concubines was the wisest man that ever lived, that Moses wrote that he was the meekest of all men and recorded his own death and burial - etc,
The biggest obstacle to me is that Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and fundamentalist Protestantism call upon their flocks to believe the unbelievable. I'm not going to take time to go into detail (bed time), but what rational person in the modern era can accept the wild stories about Catholic saints - even modern ones like Padre Pio? Who can believe in the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption? Who can believe, as conservative Protestants usually do, that every word in scripture is infallible?
Besides, I want modern worship and not customs and creeds passed slong from medieval and ancient times. I don't view old as necessarily better, as many do. Frankly, I think that some forms of Christianity borrowed liberally from the mystery religions and the old Greek and Roman religions, replacing many of their gods and goddesses with various saints. There's a saint for just about everything - something like 10,000, I've read!
Sorry, but I need a reasonable religion that admits that there is much we don't know, that doesn't require all the answers, and that doesn't claim that it alone preaches the one and only true faith. A big tent religion that welcomes a variety of views and doesn't fret over heresies - that's the religion I love and have.Bob,
And it is everyone’s job according to St. Peter
In conclusion we are all to preach the Gospel
Hi OneNow1Hi, again all. I posted the above on June 13; here is an addendum to it.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caiaphas, the Jewish high priest said:
“He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.”
John 11:51-52
"I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me, as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice.
So there shall be one flock, and one shepherd."John 10:14-16
Did you notice that Jesus said only one flock and one shepherd? And did you also notice ?
This : Judges 21: 25 In those days there was no king in Israel; every man did what was right in his own eyes."
If all our brothers and sisters in Christ would acknowledge this one truth, I believe progress could be maid. Of course it would take time and a lot of diligent study of the true history of the Catholic Church.
Peace, onenow 1
Fair enough.
I don’t know if you accept the declarations about faith that appear within chapter 11 of the Book of Hebrews but it seems to me that most if not all of the ideas about what faith is that are contained therein suggest that faith involves acceptance of tenets or events without proof. So perhaps it’s reasonable
)) to assert that all faith is unreasonable?I understand your feelings. I don’t feel the same way, though. I’m drawn to the ancient ways not because I think they’re stale and dry and irrelevant as some suppose and suggest but because I want to live and worship in the same way that the early Christians did. I daresay you’re right about the number of known saints but I would posit that the details of their lives are very interesting and encouraging to any Christian who seeks to take up his or her cross every day and follow the Founder of Christianity. Whether or not the recorded historical details of the lives of the known saints in any mirror the fictional ideas associated with the man–made gods of religions that predate Christianity isn’t for me a particularly pressing question.
The admission that there is so much we don’t know is certainly one that I endorse. However, I’m inclined to reject the idea of a religion that accepts a variety of views because it seems to me that in practice that would lead to a discord that would unsettle me (although I acknowledge and accept that such a scenario causes others little or no difficulty). Everybody in the community in agreement about the things that are unknown is one thing. But “a variety of different views” means that some people within the community believe that they know (or think or feel that they know) the answers in areas where other people suggest that the answer cannot be ascertained. This directly impacts the object of worship and leads to the reasonable
)) conclusion that different gods are being worshipped within that same community. That sort of cacophony would make the religious community no different from any other area of human endeavor where people join together. My presupposition as I seek God is that the Truth will be absolute and not relative or contradictory and I allow for the fact that the Truth will necessarily be above reason, which is where my faith comes into play.
I belong to a church where we have wonderful Bible studies, with a wide variety of views and interpretations, and nobody is there to say "that is not Christian!" We come up with some unusual and creative ideas and we feel refreshed by one another, and encouraged to speak out freely.
The key to Christianity, to me, is not doctrine or liturgy, but love - love of God and love of one another. That is the central message of Christ, which he showed us by example as well as by his teachings. If people want to embrace ancient doctrines, fine. If they like high liturgy, fine, too. I am not attracted to either. To insist on one or another doctrine or liturgy seems so puny to me.
Now, as for the crucifixion and resurrection - yes, I am a heretic who certainly would have been executed a few centuries ago had I expressed my opinion openly. Christ died an horrific death, and I regard that of emblematic of all the innocent people who have suffered and continue to suffer. Now for the blatant heresy part. Christ suffered a few days and he knew (according to traditional theology) that he was God and would soon reign again in heaven eternally. Millions have suffered horrendous suffering throughout their lives who are not God. I am grateful to Jesus for his sacrifice, but I ask: is it as much or more than millions suffer even today? I know this can sound offensive to traditional thinkers. I honor Christ for his teachings and for the martyrdom he faced, but his future was quite secure - king of heaven, ruler of all creation, Lord God Almighty, etc. He really didn't jave much to lose.
By the way, a rather offensive rime comes to mind:
God published a tale of a girl and a ghost, of devils in pigs and his son on a cross,
And gave it to man to believe it or roast. Yea, his mercy endureth forever!
Sorry about that.
As for the resurrection, I believe in it spiritually. Surely the spirit of Christ is alive in the world. It is the spirit of faith, the spirit of love, the spirit of justice. He certainly lives on in my heart and I assume in yours. There are several variations in the resurrection story, so those who believe every word of scripture must have some problem with the details. Besides, there are quite a number of murdered and riisen saviours from the time of Jesus, mostly found in the mystery religions. But I don't let this theological baggage diminish my admiration and love for Jesus and his message. That's why I am a Christian. Then, again, I have studied and taught comparative religions, so I don't dismiss other faiths as one or another form of paganism or heathenism. That sort of arrogance does rattle me a bit.
God bless the whole world, no exceptions, and may the spirit of Christ live and reign in our war-weary, sinsick world.Quote=onenow1 Hi, EK I agree with all you say, especially,when mans pride gets in the way of correct thought. After all Jesus prayed that we all be of one mind, as He and the Father are. Just think about that for a minute, complete unity of mind and soul, Jesus said it best, we could move mountains. This is what Jesus said to the Apostles…Hi One Now1
When Mao’s Red Guard came to root out Christians they never bothered to ask whether they were Catholic or Protestant. I certainly don’t think they do in North Korea right now either. I believe the cause of Christ is far more important than our petty squabbles, especially when it is under attack. I am well versed on Christian history also and I have seen that it is full of them inside the Catholic Church as well as outside of it. I’m not ready to take my eyes off the cross so I can look at what is biting my heels. I believe the biggest issue that has always gotten all of us into trouble, distracting us from the real mission of the Lord is just man’s pride.May God Bless, Erchomai Kyrios.
Peace, onenow1
Dear Friend: It seems that you have your own church in your head and only those who agree will be admitted. Reason is a scaffolding that prepares us to make the journey of faith. If God is Infinite, He is beyond our ability to reason to His Limitedlessness. We can look, without filters, at all that is and realize that there is more in heaven and earth than is dreamed of in our philosophy. What you don't believe far out reaches what you do believe. Padre Pio, Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, etc. are testimony to the wonder of the Catholic Church. You might want to check into Wikipedia on Dr. Alexis Carrell, M.D., Nobel Prize winner and fallen away Catholic who went to Lourdes to debunk the miracles there. What he found will interest you if you have an open mind. His books, "Man the Unknown" and "Voyage to Lourdes" are a testimony to what he found there. Amazon.com has both, however, they want $174.00 for one copy of "Man the Unknown" with a new introduction, which I think would sent me off to the library in a rush. Carrell appeared on the cover of Time mag 4 times. A very interesting fellow. Or you might go to Lourdes yourself and debunk what is there. My best to you and yours, bobmckThanks very much, Roy. You seem like a gentleman, too. Ain’t it sad that there are so few of us left?
I believe I’ve had some experience of that kind of setting and rather liked it. I take it that your church is heavily involved in social issues and that the more active members of the fellowship continually encourage the others to reach out to the poor and disadvantaged?
I agree that love of God and love of one another is central to Christianity but I would hesitate to categorize doctrines as “ancient.” It seems to me that if something is true, it is true in all places and for all ages. For me, an acceptance of the notion that the rule of prayer is the rule of faith has led me to Orthodoxy. It isn’t so much that I’m attracted to a high liturgy but rather that Orthodoxy represents worship “in spirit and in truth.”
Ah, yes, the good old days of mediaeval murder, based upon cruelty, bigotry, and hatred.
Indeed, now you’ve stated your case, I think it highly likely that if the clock were turned back a few centuries the compassionate conservatives of yesteryear would have been after you like a pip out of an orange.
God forgives and I forgive.
I think that here we have a fundamental disagreement. I believe that the Resurrection really happened – that it is a fact, historical and true. I believe that Jesus predicted a physical resurrection – that His body would rise not just His spirit (cf. John 2:19–21).
I acknowledge that attention has indeed been drawn to the number of “other risen saviors” but I think it’s only fair to point out that none of them have been in the news lately.
And may God grant you many years to continue to acquire the Spirit of Peace and grow in love. Feel free to come back at me if you wish to continue to discuss our differences. Actually, I’m not so sure that we’re as far apart as one might initially suppose.
Bob, I appreciate your effort to convince me, but let me reply briefly as follows.
(1) My 'church' - as you call it - is open to those with a variety of understandings and beliefs. That's where it differs from traditional Christianity with its intellectual limitations. That sort of religion demands conformity. You are welcome to join my 'church' if you are tolerant toward views not your own. I enjoy hearing different opinions that help my mind feast on new ideas and gain new and greater understanding.
(2) Hm! Sorry, but - for example - I simply can't accept all the miracles attributed to Padre Pio. Bilocation, at two places at the same time? Levitation? Give me a break. As for Mother Theresa, revelations since her death indicate that she was full of doubt. That part doesn't trouble me at all, and I regard her life as a wonderful testimony to the love of Christ. But it strikes me that she wasn't all that traditional beneath her outward conformity. I admired JPII in many respects, though I much preferred John XXIII, my favorite pontiff. By the way, I have seen and heard four popes, Pius XII in Rome (when a youth), Paul VI, John Paul II, and Benedict XVI - those three in New York City. I keep quite well-informed re Catholicism as that is one key thread in my family background, but decided years ago that I needed more wiggle room for my intellectual curiosity. I know that ';true believers' are likely to call this pride. Some of us simply prefer freedom to entertain all variety of ideas without feeling constrained. My Protestant church (unlike some) permits that.
(3) As for healing miracles, I accept many of them as healings. All sorts of religions testify to them. Take Oral Roberts, for example. How many thousands claimed that they were healed at his Pentecostal crusades. Pat Robertson still claims miracles all the time because of intercessory prayer he offers. Etc. Youwill find healings among Muslims and Hindus (I spent time in India) and in other faiths. I believe that genuine faith can heal. Oral Roberts offered part of the explanation. He said that many people punish themselves for their sins by becoming afflicted. Or, maybe it comes from fear or some other weakness. When they accept God's forgiveness or they increase in faith, the reason for their affliction withers away, so their bodies can become whole again. At the same time, there are a lot of false claims in the area. I have been interested to see thousands of crutches disappear from places like St. Josephn's Oratory and St. Anne de Beaupre over the years. (Yes, I am in large measure of French-Canadian Catholic heritage. An ancestral uncle was Archbishop of Quebec.)
All this is more complicated than that, of course, but time is at a premium. If you can believe traditional Christianity, fine. Just have respect for the millions - like me - who have had to redefine it in order to remain part of the Christian community. Actually, I think that I believe essentially what Christ taught. So many have taken the religion of Jesus and turned it into a complex theological system about Christ with all of its ancient and medieval aura.
But, again, God bless everybody. I do have a little problem with those who are convinced that they and their church are the only citadels of the full truth, but I try my best to include them in my prayers. And most of them certainly are well-meaning.Quote=onenow1 Hi, EK I agree with all you say, especially,when mans pride gets in the way of correct thought. After all Jesus prayed that we all be of one mind, as He and the Father are. Just think about that for a minute, complete unity of mind and soul, Jesus said it best, we could move mountains. This is what Jesus said to the Apostles…
Matt 28:19-20. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."
May God Bless you, EK
Quote= onenow1. And I agree with you EK, and may God bless your journey.
May God Bless you, EK
opcorn:Amen to that!Quote= onenow1. And I agree with you EK, and may God bless your journey.
I leave with Pilate’s Question to Jesus.
What is Truth?"
John 18:38
There is only one truth, and that one truth is one person, the person of Jesus Christ.
In John 14:6, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life”.
Therefore, we have only one teacher, and one truth.
Peace,onenow1
Quote= onenow1 Hi, Super D Methinks this message is meant for Roy 5.:yup:
I’ve heard some say that when Pilot asked Jesus, “What is truth?” Jesus didn’t reply. A friend of mine who is a msgr. in Rome told me years ago that all Christ had to do was to face Pilot and turn with His hands at His side palms up indicating, “Here I am.” bobmckAmen to that!
I notice that you have not taken my suggestion to look at Dr. Alexis Carrell’s books. “Man the Unkown” and “Voyage to Lourdes”. Your god must be quite limited if he/she or it can’t do miracles which are no more than withholding the natural processes. bobmck