What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[Daedelus76]

. Even further, the vast majority of people in the Christian world didn’t nor could they have ever had access to a Bible as we know it until the 15th century! (Invention of the printing press) Who determined what should be in the Bible in the first place?

I actually agree. While the Bible is important… it’s possible to over-read it. I have some other friends online who are Emergents (ex-Evangelicals), and even then they pester me about the Bible alot. I actaully do read the Bible, but I don’t read it as much as I did decades ago. And I think it’s actually healthier to focus on a more holistic faith. The basics of Christianity are actually summed up in a book like the Didache, which is actually rather short. Some people want to make it very complicated and knowledge based, and it’s not necessarily.

When things got really heated up, though, was the 19th and early 20th century. That’s when you saw the explosion of Protestant denominations. Rationalism was a large influence on this, later it was modernism. Alot of Christian sects divided over things that the Church (East and West) had agreed previously, in ancient times, were off limits. Like predestination, or the nature of the eschaton or millenium, things like that. There’s a reason those Ecumenical Councils said “keep your hands off this”.

Or some Protestant churches, like the Reformed Episcopal Church, divided from the Anglican Communion because they didn’t like candles on the altar (I’m not kidding here). Things that shouldn’t be communion breaking, became communion breaking.

 

[pickguard1]

I actually agree. While the Bible is important… it’s possible to over-read it. I have some other friends online who are Emergents (ex-Evangelicals), and even then they pester me about the Bible alot. I actaully do read the Bible, but I don’t read it as much as a did decades ago. And I think it’s actually healthier to focus on a more holistic faith.

When things got really heated up, though, was the 19th and early 20th century. That’s when you saw the explosion of Protestant denominations. Rationalism was a large influence on this, later it was modernism. Alot of Christian sects divided over things that the Church (East and West) had agreed previously, in ancient times, were off limits. Like predestination, or the nature of the eschaton or millenium, things like that. There’s a reason those Ecumenical Councils said “keep your hands off this”.

Or some Protestant churches, like the Reformed Episcopal Church, divided from the Anglican Communion because they didn’t like candles on the altar (I’m not kidding here). Things that shouldn’t be communion breaking, became communion breaking.

It just goes to show that when it comes to wanting “change” in the Church (regarding doctrine), it’s impossible to just open the door a crack against that flood. The rationale that supplies the argument that as an individual one can figure out scripture on your own, leads one to believe the rest is possible, too.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I actually agree. While the Bible is important… it’s possible to over-read it. I have some other friends online who are Emergents (ex-Evangelicals), and even then they pester me about the Bible alot. I actaully do read the Bible, but I don’t read it as much as I did decades ago. And I think it’s actually healthier to focus on a more holistic faith. The basics of Christianity are actually summed up in a book like the Didache, which is actually rather short. Some people want to make it very complicated and knowledge based, and it’s not necessarily.

When things got really heated up, though, was the 19th and early 20th century. That’s when you saw the explosion of Protestant denominations. Rationalism was a large influence on this, later it was modernism. Alot of Christian sects divided over things that the Church (East and West) had agreed previously, in ancient times, were off limits. Like predestination, or the nature of the eschaton or millenium, things like that. There’s a reason those Ecumenical Councils said “keep your hands off this”.

Or some Protestant churches, like the Reformed Episcopal Church, divided from the Anglican Communion because they didn’t like candles on the altar (I’m not kidding here). Things that shouldn’t be communion breaking, became communion breaking.

that is true. they focus so much in reading the Bible that they forgot the possibility that they may be focus in the wrong thing. things like: why i am pressured to read something that i do not understand? i do see that they are programed to a certain degree that if they can read they can understand Sacred Scriptures. i see no regard or reverence for the Word of God when somebody is arrogant enough to say they can understand something that is so Sacred as the Word of God. i dont even think they can understand how Sacred this Book is. all they have to do is go back in time and see how the Jews handled the Word of God. if the CC came from Judaism, obviously she is going to do the same. Jesus did not open the door to anyone dissecrate the Word of God like so many people think.

 

[khutcheson]

Moral theology. Namely divorce, contraception, abortion, end of life issues, etc. The others are diversions.

Not true…real evangelicals are with the Catholic Church on moral issues (with the exception of contraception and in the more conservative denominations, PCA for example, I think the acceptance of contraception may even be starting to wane). 100 years ago, most Protestants were with the CC on all moral issues.

I’m Protestant and I’m with the CC on any of the moral issues you identified. I have qualms about contraception but I have been coming around to the Catholic point of view (to the extent that my views are probably more in like with the Vatican’s than most American Catholics).

 

[Peter_J]

Do the Eastern Orthodox claim to have the fulness of truth?

I’m pretty sure they do – although, as I’m not Orthodox, I’m probably not the best person to answer that.

I thought their claim was that reason is man’s invention, and that we are not to use our reason to discover God, but only our faith and emotions.

:ehh: Are you sure it’s the Orthodox you’re thinking of, and not some other group?

 

[Peter_J]

Are you sure it’s the Orthodox you’re thinking of, and not some other group?

Maybe the one that goes around mutilating squirrels?

 

[Agabriel]

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

Some say we pray to statues, or we pray to Mary and instead should pray straight to God. They don’t like the way we pray, the prayers we say, etc. I mean - it is always something that they don’t like.

Personally, no matter what the problem THEY have - there will be no unity because it is up to them. You cannot control anyone else.

There are so many sects of Christianity now that to gather them all up would be impossible. And that is because if we had to bend to accomodate one group, we would have to bend to accomodate the other group, and the next… And then there would be problems with that since they are not the ones who are looking to do such a thing. And we would be bending so much that our own Catholicism would be unrecognizable.

I have been to other churches, talked to pastors and ministers and personally, I don’t like their version of Christianity so I came back to the Church. And to be honest, they are the ones who talk nasty about Catholics. I have never heard a priest say what some of their ministers have said against the Catholic church. Now, that really turned me off. And they say we are not ‘Christian’!

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5150912:

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

I would have to pick option J. In my experiences and interactions with non-Catholic Christians, particularly those of evangelical churches, the biggest obstacles are:
A. Disagreement about whether or not Catholics are Christian. Sad, but true. I’ve encountered this is in real life, and every time, it still shocks me a little.

I think the main reason that some Evangelicals question whether Catholics are Christians is because inside the Evangelical world it is largely supposed that Catholics believe in salvation by works. I’m not sure how Catholics might set about putting that right – assuming they’d want to.

B. Misunderstanding Catholic doctrine. Sometimes egregiously. I don’t think we can begin to resolve the disagreements the OP listed until we can eliminate the strawmen arguments. It’s quite frustrating to try to explain Catholic doctrine to someone who’s been taught distortions of the Catholic faith.

Nevertheless, there are genuine seekers out there and their ranks will undoubtedly grow as more and more Evangelical churches serve up entertainment instead of worship on Sunday mornings. I encourage you to keep at it.

Sometimes I think that there needs to be a ministry educating non-Catholic pastors about Catholicism, so that all the information that pastors give their flock is accurate.

Interesting idea. But perhaps the biggest problem is that many ordinary lay Catholics are poorly catechized and give incorrect answers to questions?

I hope to see an end to all divisions someday.

It’s very encouraging to read such a sentiment.

Love is Patient

Indeed. I like that passage very much.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self–seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

Biblically,
Mick

 

[mark_a]

Not true…real evangelicals are with the Catholic Church on moral issues (with the exception of contraception and in the more conservative denominations, PCA for example, I think the acceptance of contraception may even be starting to wane). 100 years ago, most Protestants were with the CC on all moral issues. I’m Protestant and I’m with the CC on any of the moral issues you identified. I have qualms about contraception but I have been coming around to the Catholic point of view (to the extent that my views are probably more in like with the Vatican’s than most American Catholics).

It sounds like you are more Catholic than most Catholics, no insult intended.

But what does your church teach about contraception? Has your church taught that contraception is ok or turned a blind eye to contraception?

My signature link has an excellent link to the historical traditional Christian (and Jewish) view of contraception.

Do you buy into FOF’s view that masturbation is not sinful?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Some say we pray to statues, or we pray to Mary and instead should pray straight to God. They don’t like the way we pray, the prayers we say, etc. I mean - it is always something that they don’t like.

Personally, no matter what the problem THEY have - there will be no unity because it is up to them. You cannot control anyone else.

There are so many sects of Christianity now that to gather them all up would be impossible. And that is because if we had to bend to accomodate one group, we would have to bend to accomodate the other group, and the next… And then there would be problems with that since they are not the ones who are looking to do such a thing. And we would be bending so much that our own Catholicism would be unrecognizable.

I have been to other churches, talked to pastors and ministers and personally, I don’t like their version of Christianity so I came back to the Church. And to be honest, they are the ones who talk nasty about Catholics. I have never heard a priest say what some of their ministers have said against the Catholic church. Now, that really turned me off. And they say we are not ‘Christian’!

true. that is why the CC is going through horrible times today due to an Ecumenical council trying to bring them in into the Church.

i remember this anglican priest who came into the CC. he did say that unity at this point is impossible. so God will begin to bring one by one into the Churh.

when i went to a assembly of God church, the people told me i was not saved because i was a Catholic. i guess in their mind they believe that for you to be saved you had to go up front and confess to belief in Jesus. that is when you are saved. is that simple.

 

[SSTeacher]

jmcrae;5188353:

Do the Eastern Orthodox claim to have the fulness of truth?

I’m pretty sure they do – although, as I’m not Orthodox, I’m probably not the best person to answer that.

I’m quite sure they do.

Definitely,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

when i went to a assembly of God church, the people told me i was not saved because i was a Catholic.

If you don’t mind my asking, what did you say in reply?

Curiously,
Mick

 

[Agabriel]

If you don’t mind my asking, what did you say in reply?

Curiously,
Mick

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.

I have answered many times to them that we do not pray to statues. That they are just a form of art, sometimes poor art, but art all the same. And when they say we pray to Mary, I say all I do is ask her to pray for me and it was she who asked us to pray the rosary and to do such things. I figure she has an ‘in’ with Jesus since she is His mother and all!! Ok, so sometimes I have to add some levity.

I have been in one place (I forget the denomination) where they wanted me to go up and confess my sins to someone who wasn’t even a priest. I told them that I am not going to do that. There is no seal of the confession with any old person off the street and that is how I saw those people up there waiting for us sinners to confess to them!

But, most importantly is when they pass around communion. Most don’t do it with every service - they only do it once a month. I passed on it and I was “GRILLED” about it later. I just said that I believe that a Priest has to consecrate the host and just passing around bread doesn’t mean anything to me.

I was a hopeless case in their eyes. I only went to two services and the last one I guess they thought I was going to go to hell for not believing things as they saw fit. I didn’t think they were bad though. I thought they were actually more warm and friendly than what I get when I enter a Church to go to Mass. Usually everyone is in their own universes there, but it doesn’t matter anymore to me. but, I would say that is probably why the Church loses a lot of people… their lack of friendliness, outreach, etc. It seems more communal, or more like a community, in all the other denominations that I visited. They look outward to the other human being.

 

[wisdomseeker]

If you don’t mind my asking, what did you say in reply?

Curiously,
Mick

i said: did you know Jesus built a Church? no, i am kidding.

the environment was not appropriate for a discussion on the subject. i just look at them wondering what can make someone so ignorant of the True Faith. but i realized what do they know about the CC if all they hear is how horrible the CC is.

the real funny was when i was talking to my cousin the other day. he is a protestant in some church that i have no idea where it came from. but he started telling me all about the CC. he went is far is to tell me that the CC killed Jesus and all the Jews. then latter on he told me that the CC did not exist until constantino. now, how can anyone even argue with someone that has had his reasoning taking away to the point that they cant even rationalize what they are saying. i finally got him to admit that he knew nothing about the CC. but he is so afraid of the CC that he is not even interested in knowing nothing about it.

 

[OnlyJesus]

**One head one body, One shepherd one flock. **

According to scripture, Christ is the Head of the Body ( which is the Church ).

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Colossians 1
18 And he ( Christ ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in **all things he might have the preeminence ( superior to all others ) **

Ephesians 1
17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, **and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
**

 

[SSTeacher]

**One head one body, One shepherd one flock. **

According to scripture, Christ is the Head of the Body ( which is the Church ).

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Colossians 1
18 And he ( Christ ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in **all things he might have the preeminence ( superior to all others ) **

Ephesians 1
17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, **and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
**

Many thanks for posting the above quotations. What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

Cordially,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.

I have answered many times to them that we do not pray to statues. That they are just a form of art, sometimes poor art, but art all the same. And when they say we pray to Mary, I say all I do is ask her to pray for me and it was she who asked us to pray the rosary and to do such things. I figure she has an ‘in’ with Jesus since she is His mother and all!! Ok, so sometimes I have to add some levity.

I have been in one place (I forget the denomination) where they wanted me to go up and confess my sins to someone who wasn’t even a priest. I told them that I am not going to do that. There is no seal of the confession with any old person off the street and that is how I saw those people up there waiting for us sinners to confess to them!

But, most importantly is when they pass around communion. Most don’t do it with every service - they only do it once a month. I passed on it and I was “GRILLED” about it later. I just said that I believe that a Priest has to consecrate the host and just passing around bread doesn’t mean anything to me.

I was a hopeless case in their eyes. I only went to two services and the last one I guess they thought I was going to go to hell for not believing things as they saw fit. I didn’t think they were bad though. I thought they were actually more warm and friendly than what I get when I enter a Church to go to Mass. Usually everyone is in their own universes there, but it doesn’t matter anymore to me. but, I would say that is probably why the Church loses a lot of people… their lack of friendliness, outreach, etc. It seems more communal, or more like a community, in all the other denominations that I visited. They look outward to the other human being.

Interesting. But I didn’t realize the Catholic Church is losing a lot of people owing to unfriendliness. Do you happen to know which denomination those people generally head for?

Wonderingly,
Mick

 

[Eric_Hyom]

A lack of unity seems to highlight a lack of love for others who are different to ourselves; maybe we should look to the parable of the Good Samaritan for clues.

If Jesus was to give us the parable of the Good Samaritan today, he might change the names in the parable. A Catholic and Orthodox priest walked by on the other side of the road, and a Muslim came to the aid of the wounded man.

When we are too busy obeying the strict law of our doctrines, we seem to miss the greater human need. You have to feel sorry for the priest and the Levite in the parable, they were simply obeying the strict laws of their faith. If they tended the wounded man, they would become unclean and would be unable to perform their priestly duties for a while.

You have to ask the question, were did these strict laws for priests and Levites come from, and the answer has to be God, Jesus. Yet Jesus said to the lawyer, who did the right thing, and the lawyer said the one who showed mercy. It seems the lawyer could not bring himself to say the Samaritan or Muslim was the one who did right, our enemies name seems to stick in our throat at times.

It seems as if Jesus gave us strict Catholic doctrine, but we must be wise in how we apply it against others. When we stick too close to our strict Catholic laws, we seem to show a lack of love for others. The greatest commandments and the parable of the Good Samaritan should challenge how we choose to love others or not.

The priest and the Levite gave up their right to talk about their faith to the wounded man, because they walked on the other side.

The Samaritan, who earned the right to talk about his faith, chose not to say anything.

Why did Jesus put all these challenging issues into the greatest commandments and the parable of the Samaritan?

Eric

 

[SSTeacher]

A lack of unity seems to highlight a lack of love for others who are different to ourselves; maybe we should look to the parable of the Good Samaritan for clues.

If Jesus was to give us the parable of the Good Samaritan today, he might change the names in the parable. A Catholic and Orthodox priest walked by on the other side of the road, and a Muslim came to the aid of the wounded man.

When we are too busy obeying the strict law of our doctrines, we seem to miss the greater human need. You have to feel sorry for the priest and the Levite in the parable, they were simply obeying the strict laws of their faith. If they tended the wounded man, they would become unclean and would be unable to perform their priestly duties for a while.

You have to ask the question, were did these strict laws for priests and Levites come from, and the answer has to be God, Jesus. Yet Jesus said to the lawyer, who did the right thing, and the lawyer said the one who showed mercy. It seems the lawyer could not bring himself to say the Samaritan or Muslim was the one who did right, our enemies name seems to stick in our throat at times.

It seems as if Jesus gave us strict Catholic doctrine, but we must be wise in how we apply it against others. When we stick too close to our strict Catholic laws, we seem to show a lack of love for others. The greatest commandments and the parable of the Good Samaritan should challenge how we choose to love others or not.

The priest and the Levite gave up their right to talk about their faith to the wounded man, because they walked on the other side.

The Samaritan, who earned the right to talk about his faith, chose not to say anything.

Why did Jesus put all these challenging issues into the greatest commandments and the parable of the Samaritan?

Eric

Eric,

You are very wise.

Admiringly,
Mick

 

[wisdomseeker]

A lack of unity seems to highlight a lack of love for others who are different to ourselves; maybe we should look to the parable of the Good Samaritan for clues.

If Jesus was to give us the parable of the Good Samaritan today, he might change the names in the parable. A Catholic and Orthodox priest walked by on the other side of the road, and a Muslim came to the aid of the wounded man.

When we are too busy obeying the strict law of our doctrines, we seem to miss the greater human need. You have to feel sorry for the priest and the Levite in the parable, they were simply obeying the strict laws of their faith. If they tended the wounded man, they would become unclean and would be unable to perform their priestly duties for a while.

You have to ask the question, were did these strict laws for priests and Levites come from, and the answer has to be God, Jesus. Yet Jesus said to the lawyer, who did the right thing, and the lawyer said the one who showed mercy. It seems the lawyer could not bring himself to say the Samaritan or Muslim was the one who did right, our enemies name seems to stick in our throat at times.

It seems as if Jesus gave us strict Catholic doctrine, but we must be wise in how we apply it against others. When we stick too close to our strict Catholic laws, we seem to show a lack of love for others. The greatest commandments and the parable of the Good Samaritan should challenge how we choose to love others or not.

The priest and the Levite gave up their right to talk about their faith to the wounded man, because they walked on the other side.

The Samaritan, who earned the right to talk about his faith, chose not to say anything.

Why did Jesus put all these challenging issues into the greatest commandments and the parable of the Samaritan?

Eric

i dont understand what you are talking about. what does what you are saying has to do with unity of Christians? what do you think that the CC have to do for unity. besides what she has done for all these years? has she not asked for forgiveness for what she has done and not done? what was the response from others? do you know? what Church suffers more than the CC in this world? i hope you rethink what you have said about the Church? this Church is silent while others go around saying terrible things about her to the point of removing Catholics from the Church. yes, the reason Catholics leave is because they are being told lies about the Church not because they are not the center of attention in the Church. no one does more work of charity than Catholics. just because we dont go aroung telling, it does not mean it has not been done.