What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[jmcrae]

And I’d suggest that the average Evangelical is telling people to believe not what he or she has read in the Bible for himself or herself but what his or her pastor or Sunday school teacher has declared.

Speaking from personal experience, I would say that part of the reason for this (telling what the Sunday School teacher or pastor has declared, rather than what oneself has found in the Bible) is that it would be embarrassing to be the first person in the community to admit that they don’t have clue #1 what the heck the Bible is driving at, half the time. So, when someone who appears to know what they’re talking about comes along and says, “I perceive the Bible to be saying (something that sounds at least half-intelligent)” the reaction is to say, “Yeah - me too!” Rather than say, “I haven’t got the first idea what the heck that means.”

Because the Bible is “supposed to be” so easy to read that a child can understand it - and most people don’t want to seem to be dumber than a five year old.

The problem is, the other person is also just repeating something they heard, as well - they, too, have no real idea what it’s supposed to mean. They’re just hoping the person they heard it from, knew what they were talking about.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I formally turned in my Evangelical I.D. on April 26, 2009, when I was accepted as a catechumen in the Orthodox Church of America. I had been wrestling with my spiritual difficulties and uncertainties since the end of 2005 so it was quite a long wrestling match.

I’d say it isn’t any different.

I think you’ve nailed it. And I’d suggest that the average Evangelical is telling people to believe not what he or she has read in the Bible for himself or herself but what his or her pastor or Sunday school teacher has declared.

God bless you, too.

In Christ,
Mick

Thank you Mick :tiphat:

I knew I wasn’t crazy. Simplistic yes; crazy no.

God bless you on your journey. I don’t know much about the OCA, but I like the fact that it has ‘Orthodox’ in its name.

God bless you

 

[SSTeacher]

Speaking from personal experience, I would say that part of the reason for this (telling what the Sunday School teacher or pastor has declared, rather than what oneself has found in the Bible) is that it would be embarrassing to be the first person in the community to admit that they don’t have clue #1 what the heck the Bible is driving at, half the time.

I can’t argue with that. My experience was that a fair number of the people around me didn’t actually read the Bible for themselves, which meant the only time they got any “biblical” information was on Sunday morning from their Sunday school teacher and/or pastor.

So, when someone who appears to know what they’re talking about comes along and says, “I perceive the Bible to be saying (something that sounds at least half-intelligent)” the reaction is to say, “Yeah - me too!” Rather than say, “I haven’t got the first idea what the heck that means.”

That makes sense.

Because the Bible is “supposed to be” so easy to read that a child can understand it - and most people don’t want to seem to be dumber than a five year old.

I agree.

The problem is, the other person is also just repeating something they heard, as well - they, too, have no real idea what it’s supposed to mean. They’re just hoping the person they heard it from, knew what they were talking about.

Indeed.

Ah, well.

Thoughtfully,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Thank you Mick :tiphat:

I knew I wasn’t crazy. Simplistic yes; crazy no.

God bless you on your journey. I don’t know much about the OCA, but I like the fact that it has ‘Orthodox’ in its name.

God bless you

Thank you, Roman_Catholic, for your kind words. The OCA church I’ve joined is called Holy Cross. It’s a small mission in High Point, NC. Here is the web address in case you want to take a shufty:

holycrossoca.org/

Cordially,
Mick

 

[Love_is_Patient]

I think the main reason that some Evangelicals question whether Catholics are Christians is because inside the Evangelical world it is largely supposed that Catholics believe in salvation by works. I’m not sure how Catholics might set about putting that right – assuming they’d want to.

We want to. The tough part sometimes is getting Evangelicals to believe us.

Nevertheless, there are genuine seekers out there and their ranks will undoubtedly grow as more and more Evangelical churches serve up entertainment instead of worship on Sunday mornings. I encourage you to keep at it.

Yes, there are lots of reasons for hope.

Interesting idea. But perhaps the biggest problem is that many ordinary lay Catholics are poorly catechized and give incorrect answers to questions?

Agreed. We need to fix that. But at the same time, if a pastor will dedicate hours and hours to exegesis and the Greek or Hebrew wording of a particular passage, is it so much to expect him to make sure what he tells his flock about Catholics is accurate?

It’s very encouraging to read such a sentiment.

It’s very encouraging to see you create this thread. But it’s all God’s grace.

Indeed. I like that passage very much.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self–seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

Biblically,
Mick

It’s one of my favorite passages.

Love is Patient

 

[Bob_McKissick]

thanks - just hope it opens someones mind - otherwise it’s meaningless words

I THINK WE NEVER KNOW HOW GOD WILL USE OUR WORDS. HE MAY EVEN MAKE THEM HIS OWN. bob

 

[Peter_J]

Mick,

You were (or still are) a member of the Evangelical community. Is the Pope telling us what to believe (or so some evangelicals believe) any different than the average Evangelical telling us what to believe?

Yes, quite different.

Oh wait … I’m not Mick.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I am a Catholic, yet I seem to travel in a SOLO scripture way, possibly leading to spiritual suicide in the eyes of the church.

My job is supporting people with disabilities, on occasions I have to take them to an Anglican or Baptist Church, and I share communion with them in their church.

Jesus said when two or three are gathered in my name, so I am there also. My conscience leads me to share communion with them, I feel I would be dividing Jesus if I declined.

If I have offended anyone then I ask for your prayers and forgiveness. There is a great need to pray for each other, that we might all achieve salvation despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying to One God

Eric

 

[SSTeacher]

I am a Catholic, yet I seem to travel in a SOLO scripture way, possibly leading to spiritual suicide in the eyes of the church.

My job is supporting people with disabilities, on occasions I have to take them to an Anglican or Baptist Church, and I share communion with them in their church.

Jesus said when two or three are gathered in my name, so I am there also. My conscience leads me to share communion with them, I feel I would be dividing Jesus if I declined.

If I have offended anyone then I ask for your prayers and forgiveness. There is a great need to pray for each other, that we might all achieve salvation despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying to One God

Eric

Eric,

Conscience is a reflection of the divine image at the core of each person. I would suggest that an informed conscience is the inner faculty that guides us in making choices that align with God’s will and that accuses us when we break communion with God and with our neighbor. Conscience is God’s whispering voice within us calling us to a way of life that reveals God’s presence and urges us to refuse actions that destroy community and communion. However, the education of conscience depends upon our acquiring wisdom from those who are more advanced than we are in faith, love and knowledge of God. If your spiritual adviser, representing your Church, endorses your actions then your conscience will automatically be clear.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[pickguard1]

I am a Catholic, yet I seem to travel in a SOLO scripture way, possibly leading to spiritual suicide in the eyes of the church.

My job is supporting people with disabilities, on occasions I have to take them to an Anglican or Baptist Church, and I share communion with them in their church.

Jesus said when two or three are gathered in my name, so I am there also. My conscience leads me to share communion with them, I feel I would be dividing Jesus if I declined.

If I have offended anyone then I ask for your prayers and forgiveness. There is a great need to pray for each other, that we might all achieve salvation despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying to One God

Eric

Dear Eric,
Certainly relying on one’s self to ascertain the Truth is bound to land one in hot water, that’s why Jesus, out of Love for us, gave us His Church, of which you are a member. You should use it, that’s what it’s there for.

As for working with the sick and disabled, that is a vituous profession. Bringing those people to their particular churches so they can practice their faith how they understand it is also charitable. However, receiving communion with them is not OK. While you may feel that to not is “dividing Christ”, technically he cannot be divided at all. He resides fully intact in the Church which you claim. The Protestant services which you attend don’t have Him in communion, because they have rejected some, or many of the Truths provided to us by Christ Himself, and therefore chose to be separated from His Church, forming their own. To receive communion with them doesn’t “divide Christ” it reinforces their belief that the Catholic Church isn’t the True Church, which is uncharitable for you to do, since we should desire that ALL come to Christ’s True Church, the Catholic Church. It also has the double effect of weakening your faith in the specialness of the true sacraments that exist solely within the Catholic Church. I firmly suggest that you stop receiving communion in non-catholic churches, and go to confession. Speak with your parish priest about your feelings, understanding of the sacraments, etc. Let him help you understand why you shouldn’t feel bad or ashamed of not participating in non-Catholic communion services.

here are a couple links to the apologetics section regarding helping others who aren’t Catholic and receiving communion outside the Catholic Church.

Is it a sin to take Anglican Communion?

Can I drop off my father at his Protestant church?

Your brother in Christ,
Will

 

[Peter_J]

Hi Eric,

Two things.

First, I think this is an overly-harsh interpretation of Catholic teaching:

I am a Catholic, yet I seem to travel in a SOLO scripture way, possibly leading to spiritual suicide in the eyes of the church.

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach legalism, but rather places a great deal of importance on each person’s conscience.

My job is supporting people with disabilities, on occasions I have to take them to an Anglican or Baptist Church, and I share communion with them in their church.

Jesus said when two or three are gathered in my name, so I am there also. My conscience leads me to share communion with them, I feel I would be dividing Jesus if I declined.

This is a rather complex situation: you not only feel that the Catholic Church is wrong in telling you that you mustn’t receive communion at Protestant church, but you even believe that it would be wrong for you to not receive communion at those churches? I guess I would suggest that you re-examine that second part, and ask yourself what your basis is for believing that.

 

[Bob_McKissick]

I am a Catholic, yet I seem to travel in a SOLO scripture way, possibly leading to spiritual suicide in the eyes of the church.

My job is supporting people with disabilities, on occasions I have to take them to an Anglican or Baptist Church, and I share communion with them in their church.

Jesus said when two or three are gathered in my name, so I am there also. My conscience leads me to share communion with them, I feel I would be dividing Jesus if I declined.

If I have offended anyone then I ask for your prayers and forgiveness. There is a great need to pray for each other, that we might all achieve salvation despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying to One God

Eric

Dear Eric: When we gather in Christ’s Name we are presupposed to have the understanding of the authority He gave the Church of binding and loosing. To gather in His Name outside that authority is to disregard His total control of His Church. The Scriptura is the Word of God as transmitted through the Church. St. Peter teaches us that the Scriptures are difficult and not for private interpretation. When we join in communion services that are not valid we deny the validity of the Christ instituted Eucharist. Don’t feel that you are dividing Christ if you don’t partake of non-catholic invalid communion rites. Christ can not be divided. Those or those they came from are the ones who separated themselves form Christ in His Mystical Body. In Christ’s Love,
bob

 

[jmcrae]

I am a Catholic, yet I seem to travel in a SOLO scripture way, possibly leading to spiritual suicide in the eyes of the church.

My job is supporting people with disabilities, on occasions I have to take them to an Anglican or Baptist Church, and I share communion with them in their church.

Jesus said when two or three are gathered in my name, so I am there also. My conscience leads me to share communion with them, I feel I would be dividing Jesus if I declined.

Since Jesus is not actually in the species of Holy Communion that is offered in Protestant churches, there would be no difference for you, if you were simply to pray with them without partaking. Jesus is certainly there with you, even if you don’t partake of the symbols of white bread and grape juice.

Meanwhile, by giving the impression that the Catholic Church endorses inter-communion, you may inadvertently lead one or some of your Protestant friends to attempt to receive Holy Communion in a Catholic Church, should they happen to visit one, which could lead to them being embarrassed, when they discover that Holy Communion in the Catholic Church is limited only to practicing Catholics who are in good standing with the Church.

I am quite sure that it is not your intention to have that happen to them - and I think that, until you find the time and the inclination to get your head around the theological reasons not to do this, the reason of not leading your Protestant brother into a situation of potential embarrassment is a good enough reason for you to refrain from receiving Holy Communion in Protestant churches.

Sharing communion between denominations falsely signifies a unity that does not actually exist. This is the reason that we cannot do this. However, there is nothing the matter with praying with them, and especially praying for the day when we are once again reunited into one Church, and can once again share Holy Communion with one another.

 

[RonaldH]

Dear Eric: When we gather in Christ’s Name we are presupposed to have the understanding of the authority He gave the Church of binding and loosing. To gather in His Name outside that authority is to disregard His total control of His Church. The Scriptura is the Word of God as transmitted through the Church. St. Peter teaches us that the Scriptures are difficult and not for private interpretation. When we join in communion services that are not valid we deny the validity of the Christ instituted Eucharist. Don’t feel that you are dividing Christ if you don’t partake of non-catholic invalid communion rites. Christ can not be divided. Those or those they came from are the ones who separated themselves form Christ in His Mystical Body. In Christ’s Love,
bob

"Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious.” Acts 17:22 “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.” “Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.” Hebrews 10:11

 

[RonaldH]

The reason I asked is because there is a difference between what is sometimes termed Classic Sola Scriptura and SOLO Scriptura. The latter is the understanding of the Bible often found among Evangelicals. When I was an Evangelical, I was definitely a SOLO Scriptura advocate. I decided what I wanted to believe by reading the Bible for myself. I accepted no judgment or understanding as to what any verse or passage in the Bible meant except my own. I always had the final word. My stance was that I could interpret the Scriptures for myself without the aid of any church or Church, any tradition, or any historical factors.

If you strongly identify with the approach I’ve described herein, it might be that you are actually a SOLO Scriptura guy and not a Sola Scriptura guy. I guess the best way to discover which you are is to ask yourself if you can define Classic Sola Scriptura. If the answer’s negative I’d have thought the chances that you’re a SOLO Scriptura guy are fairly good.

Biblically,
Mick

Mick, I guess I don’t like being labeled one way or another. I simply believe that the Bible alone is the authority. John 5:39, Jesus stated, “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life” The only alteration to your statement that I would make is that I interpret them*** with ***the aid of the Holy Spirit.

 

[jmcrae]

"Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious.” Acts 17:22

Because they had a statue dedicated to “the unknown god” in addition to their many other gods.

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink,

ie: pork, shellfish, etc. which were forbidden by the Jews to eat.

or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."

ie: if they wanted to continue to celebrated the Equinoxes and the Soltices, even after becoming Christians, because it is God who created the sun and the stars.

“Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.” Hebrews 10:11

Referring, of course, to the Jewish sacrifices of various animals in the Temple - not to the Mass, which is the perfect Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, which is the effective sacrifice for sins.

 

[pickguard1]

Mick, I guess I don’t like being labeled one way or another. I simply believe that the Bible alone is the authority. John 5:39, Jesus stated, “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life” The only alteration to your statement that I would make is that I interpret them*** with ***the aid of the Holy Spirit.

Here is Catholic commentary along with that quote, from here.
39 Search the scriptures: for you think in them to have life everlasting. And the same are they that give testimony of me. (Search the scriptures… Or, You search the scriptures. Scrutamini, ereunat. It is not a command for all to read the scriptures; but a reproach to the Pharisees, that reading the scriptures as they did, and thinking to find everlasting life in them, they would not receive him to whom all those scriptures gave testimony, and through whom alone they could have that true life. )

This is why private interpretation of scriptures runs into problems.

 

[pickguard1]

(continued)

The verses directly preceding this verse are dealing with how the Pharisees sought to kill Jesus because he healed a man on the sabbath - relying solely on the scripture and dismissing the signs and prophecy of John the Baptist to the *sole exclusion *of the scripture. Christ is admonishing them, since if they truly followed the scripture they would see that it pointed to His coming. The words of scripture don’t have eternal life in and of themselves.

 

[jam070406]

This is why private interpretation of scriptures runs into problems.

Along with cherry picking passages out of context.

 

[StevenFrancis]

Is it,

a) Disagreement as to whether salvation is an event or a process?
b) Disagreement about the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception?
c) Disagreement about praying for the dead?
d) Disagreement about the existence of purgatory?
e) Disagreement about how to understand baptism?
f) Disagreement about the doctrine of Transubstantiation?
g) Disagreement about confession of one’s sins being heard by a priest?
h) Disagreement about the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God?
i) Disagreement about the papacy and papal infallibility?
j) Some other doctrine or factor?

Curiously,
Mick

Some of all of the above, of course, but what I read the most about is magisterium and papacy (having a single infallable teaching authority for faith and morals and a single interpretation of scripture by one authoritative body).

The Catholic understanding the there was the Church first, and THEN the book, and that oral tradition is equally valid. Christianity thrived without a “New Testament” for a long time.

The Catholic understanding about Eucharist.

There’s a lot of discussion about everything you have here, but I believe all denominations will come to grips with most of the tangentials, perhaps in my own lifetime. But these big 3 really can not be reconciled accept for protestant Christians to simply relent. The Church isn’t going to, and if they did, they wouldn’t be the Catholic Church anymore, and therefore Christ’s words to Peter wouldn’t be true, and therefore Christianity itself would be invalid as a system of belief, so frankly, I’d rather see the divisions in denominations than see the Catholic Church change anything which is dogma. We’ll go ahead and take folks one and two at a time, as the Spirit guides them rather than making concessions. There are no concessions to be made really.