What do you think is the biggest obstacle to unity between Catholic Christians and non–Catholic Christians?

[JonNC]

=NCSue;5206529]I think there are quite a few “biggest obstacles”, most of which result from a lack of understanding. Protestants believe that:
*** Catholics worship saints… or statues… or Mary. **(Of course we don’t. I think many Protestants don’t get the distinction between admiration, reverence, and worship and therefore misinterpret what we’re doing.

I agree. I’ve learned much about this practice over the last few years, and am, frankly not offended by it.

*** What we mean by the term “papal infallability” is misunderstood as well. **Protestants don’t realize that the doctrine of infallability doesn’t indicate that the Pope is free from sin or that he is incapable of any sort of error.

This we still need to dialogue on.

*** A different understanding of Eucharist. **Catholics place great emphasis on the words, “This is my Body” and “This is my Blood”; Protestants put great emphasis on the words “Do this in memory of me”.

Not all of us.

*** Sola scriptura.** We don’t accept that the Bible alone contains the full story of our faith.

I don’t think I would accept this, either. But scripture is certainly the benchmark, and shouldn’t be contradicted.

*** Faith versus works. **Many Protestants believe that ONLY faith in Jesus is required for salvation. We believe that faith will result in a changed heart, which will cause a changed life that manifests itself as “works”. They believe it’s not necessary for the Christian to change. We believe its impossible for the Christian to remain the same.

This sounds so, em, Lutheran.

Jon

 

[Hesychios]

Somewhere here a while back a Catholic, whose handle I don’t remember, quipped that he wouldn’t want to be the one at the Last Supper to respond to Christ’s words, “this is my body”, by saying, “Wait, Lord, no it’s not. It’s only a symbol.”

This is a very good point.

And I would like to add that the Orthodox Christians and non-Chalcedonian Christians (separated since 451AD) all believe the same thing on this point!

In fact, there are no remnant Christian populations from the early church… anywhere… which have a different understanding.

As an example the churches in India and Abyssinia were cut off from the west each for over 1,000 years, and therefore had no exposure to scholastic era theology nor the Protestant Reformation. They were quite thoroughly isolated from western Christian thought in their own traditions. And yet they have always maintained the same understanding of the Holy Eucharist as the real Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. They have maintained bishops and priests to confect the Holy Eucharist, quite independently, as if they were the last Christians in the world until the west rediscovered them.

The Eucharist is a scandal to the uninitiated and a mystery for sure. It does shock, I think that perhaps it was intended to. We simply cannot understand God’s ways…but this is what He left us to do and we obey the command of Our God.

As I see it ultimately… through communing we are living shrines to the Lord, we are mirrors reflecting His Glory, we are called to be holy and called to live as blessings to this world.

We are called to be like Him, we put on Christ.

 

[Peter_J]

My guess is, not under Benedict. Not for any particular shortcoming of Benedict’s (I think if one reads Ratzinger’s prior scholarly work, it reveals a man who has a deep understanding of Church history and has clearly put some thought into the concept of unity), but simply because I’m not sure with his age he will be so ambitious as to convene a council that might saddle his successor with something they might not be 100% into. Just as a simple matter of courtesy, I would think the next Pope will probably be the first opportunity to see any meaningful departure one way or another from the post-Vatican II/John Paul II status quo.

True, he hasn’t called for an ecumenical council; but have you seen …

zenit.org/article-24309?l=english

 

[humble_in_doubt]

This is a very good point.

And I would like to add that the Orthodox Christians and non-Chalcedonian Christians (separated since 451AD) all believe the same thing on this point!

In fact, there are no remnant Christian populations from the early church… anywhere… which have a different understanding.

As an example the churches in India and Abyssinia were cut off from the west each for over 1,000 years, and therefore had no exposure to scholastic era theology nor the Protestant Reformation. They were quite thoroughly isolated from western Christian thought in their own traditions. And yet they have always maintained the same understanding of the Holy Eucharist as the real Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ. They have maintained bishops and priests to confect the Holy Eucharist, quite independently, as if they were the last Christians in the world until the west rediscovered them.

The Indian church did maintain contact with their near eastern counterparts (and they certainly did not go a full 1,000 years in absolute isolation). I’m not arguing pro or con your position on the Eucharist; I simply wanted to note that your assertion here is unsupported by the facts.

 

[Hesychios]

The Indian church did maintain contact with their near eastern counterparts (and they certainly did not go a full 1,000 years in absolute isolation). I’m not arguing pro or con your position on the Eucharist; I simply wanted to note that your assertion here is unsupported by the facts.

OK, I agree with you. They had limited contact with the Metropolitans (later Patriarchs) of Seleucia-Ctesiphon, which had responsibility for sending them bishops. So I concede that point, please excuse my hyperbole.

When the Portuguese arrived at southern India they encountered a Christian church that had an extremely limited contact with the west and no experience with scholasticism nor reformation theology.

The declining Nestorian church of Seleucia-Ctesiphon had limited formal contact with the western churches, and was not transmitting western theology to it’s suffragan churches and missions. The entire region was controlled by Muslims after the seventh century. I think 1,000 years absent western contact for the Indian church in Kerala is a reasonable assumption, although it is not total isolation. The point here is that the Holy Eucharist is not a Roman Catholic development, it is so early a practice that the Real Presence is a universal understanding among the earliest churches around the world.

 

[William_inquire]

while I would agree that differences in theology make a big problem for unity, I think that a huge difficulty comes in not understanding what the other side is actually saying. Let’s be careful here: I am NOT saying that there are not real differences in theology. They really are there. And neither side would say that they are unimportant.

So as a result of the above I would ask what “unity” are you asking about? IF you are wanting to know what theological things are getting in the way… well you have a long list of them. Who intends to do something about them? What can be done about them? How would it help? Could we ever hope to get there under human power? there almost certainly could be a much longer list of questions that might help us to get somewhere on this, especially those questions which help us to seek Him and his answers.

IF on the otherhand you are talking about the Body of Christ functioning together, then perhaps that is another question. (I say “perhaps” because I would not be so bold as to make a presumption to deny that there are parts of that which forcibly connect the two)

I would start with the idea of PRAYER. We both can pray, should pray, must pray and we deeply desire to pray (any believer does, but naturally fights with the old nature.)
I also believe that the Bible should be read regularly. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16
I think that God can get us to do things together and not only that but that he uses us in our current state. (I am sure you can think of many examples from the Bible that supports this idea. God still found a way to use Abraham even though he sinned.) These are a sample of the things in which we can have unity.

I think that we have faulty views of what other believers in God actually believe. For example: Abraham probably also doesn’t fit our stereotypes of what we think that he was. Consider that Abraham offered his visitors what amounts to a cheeseburger when combined * OF course this isn’t kosher at all.

So I would say that “Sibling” infighting and not knowing what the other part of the Body is, are a big barriers. Bigger barriers include not reading the Bible. **A much bigger barrier is failure to pray. This failure gets my vote as probably the biggest or nearly biggest barrier **.

• (6So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs£ of fine flour and knead it and bake some bread.” 7Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.) I encourage you to think about assumptions God’s people might make.

 

[SSTeacher]

Just curiosity SSTeacher, what drew you to the Orthodox Church, rather than say, an Eastern Catholic Church?

peace,
Will

Hi Will,

Since the Catholic Church formally claims oneness it didn’t occur to me that there might in practice be a difference between Eastern Catholicism and Western Catholicism. So I didn’t see any need to go beyond consulting the Catechism of the Catholic Church and visiting my local Catholic church.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

My guess is, not under Benedict. Not for any particular shortcoming of Benedict’s (I think if one reads Ratzinger’s prior scholarly work, it reveals a man who has a deep understanding of Church history and has clearly put some thought into the concept of unity), but simply because I’m not sure with his age he will be so ambitious as to convene a council that might saddle his successor with something they might not be 100% into. Just as a simple matter of courtesy, I would think the next Pope will probably be the first opportunity to see any meaningful departure one way or another from the post-Vatican II/John Paul II status quo.

You’re probably right, James.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5198115:

Thanks for the above.

I first explored Islam and read the Qur’an a decade ago when I began seriously to seek God. Muhammad is an interesting study. There was the Mecca period when he spent his time on religion and the later Medina period when he was primarily a political and military leader. Summing up the man isn’t easy. At the outset, he seems to have been a really religious man. Freed from polytheism by Jewish and Christian influences, his ideas centered on the person of the One God and the reality of things to come in the future life. But at Medina, he was perhaps overcome by his own success – success with men and success with women. The Prophet became the Head of a State and thanks to his political genius the Arabs became conscious of their national identity, abandoned their divisions and anarchy and began to prepare for their entry into history and civilization.

Eventually, I rejected Islam and chose Evangelical Christianity. Part of my reasoning at the time was the contrast between Muhammad‘s life and that of our Savior’s.

Anyway, I fear I’m off–thread. Peace be with you.

Cordially,
Mick

Well, I agree - we diverted. But, I must say you said his life in a much nicer way than I could have ever said it!

It’s nice to be nice.

I am glad you chose Jesus though.

So am I.

When I was searching, I couldn’t even fathom chosing Islam, but was looking more for something within Christianity and realized that I am a Catholic ‘to the bone’. So, once I realized that fact about me, I was much more at peace.

I understand. You should pass on your peace. Blessed are the peacemakers.

And studying Islam actually makes me more aware that even when I was doubting, I should have opened up the Bible. It is all in there, Jesus’ divinity, the Message from God, and Salvation. It is not in the Quran and in fact, I think that path is the path in the opposite direction.

Noted and agreed.

The Protestant religions had it right all along - crack open a Bible! It is something that Catholics, at least during my time, were not used to doing - cracking open a Bible! (I went to Catholic schools in the 50s-60s.)

It sounds to me as though we’re in the same age group.

We actually have a Bible study group at our Church which pleasantly surprised me when I came back (to the church).

Don’t you think interfaith Bible studies would be interesting?

Ecumenically,
Mick

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Hello Mick

SSTeacher;

Don’t you think interfaith Bible studies would be interesting?

Ecumenically,
Mick

They would be good.

We have churches Together prayer breakfasts in a different church each month.
In the UK we are coming to the end of Christian Aid week. Around 300,000 Christians from 20,000 church of many denominations, will work collectively together for justice for the poor.
I am a Street Pastor along with Christians from seven denominations in our town. We go out late on a Friday night trying to bring about a little kindness and peace amongst all the troubled people, the drunks, gangs, drug addicts, homeless, suicidal, the task is great. The crime rate reduces when Street Pastors start in an area, God works wonders for us when we work together.

In the spirit of praying for salvation for all people

Eric

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Could any church really sponsor inter-faith bible studies without trying to recruit all newcomers? I doubt it …

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Hello Jon

Michael,
Somewhere here a while back a Catholic, whose handle I don’t remember, quipped that he wouldn’t want to be the one at the Last Supper to respond to Christ’s words, “this is my body”, by saying, “Wait, Lord, no it’s not. It’s only a symbol.”

Jon

Amen

And I would not want to be the Catholic at the Last Supper who says, Lord when we do this in memory of you, should we only invite Catholics? We are all in need of Christ’s saving body.

In the spirit of praying for forgiveness

Eric

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Hello humble

Could any church really sponsor inter-faith bible studies without trying to recruit all newcomers? I doubt it …

We do lots of things together, in many ways I prefer sharing, working and praying with Christians of other denominations. They are really kind people at interfaith gatherings.

In the spirit of praying to One God

Eric

 

[Agabriel]

Don’t you think interfaith Bible studies would be interesting?

Ecumenically,
Mick

Yes, it sounds like it would certainly be interesting. I haven’t heard about anything like that in my area. I might ask to see if anyone has heard about such a thing.

I just recently retired. And when I worked I would meet with the Telecom guys (they were different faiths, but much more fundamental than me, the only Catholic - and a mainframe systems programmer - we work closely with the Telecom guys) and we would drink coffee and talk about things like the Bible, their ways, my ways, etc. Sometimes we even got in heated arguments. But, the next day we met and had coffee again.

We all liked talking about religion. Then one left, another one left, and then I retired. All good things must come to an end. (One left the country to do contract work, and the other left the state so keeping in touch wasn’t done.) The University where I worked did some massive changes, and cutbacks, so they saw greener pastures elsewhere.

But, what I am trying to say is that it is a good idea to talk about our religions and our differences and our similarities. No one tried converting anyone else, we just respected each other and just talked and drank coffee.

It is a good idea to ‘get out of the box’ sometimes.

 

[Peter_J]

Hello Mick

They would be good.

We have churches Together prayer breakfasts in a different church each month.
In the UK we are coming to the end of Christian Aid week. Around 300,000 Christians from 20,000 church of many denominations, will work collectively together for justice for the poor.
I am a Street Pastor along with Christians from seven denominations in our town. We go out late on a Friday night trying to bring about a little kindness and peace amongst all the troubled people, the drunks, gangs, drug addicts, homeless, suicidal, the task is great. The crime rate reduces when Street Pastors start in an area, God works wonders for us when we work together.

In the spirit of praying for salvation for all people

Eric

Awesome!

 

[SSTeacher]

Could any church really sponsor inter-faith bible studies without trying to recruit all newcomers? I doubt it …

humble,

Why do you doubt it? And even if recruitment (only a wicked word in the context of religion but totally acceptable in all other areas of human endeavor) was attempted, would that be so egregious?

Reasonably,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5208396:

Don’t you think interfaith Bible studies would be interesting?

Ecumenically,
Mick

Yes, it sounds like it would certainly be interesting. I haven’t heard about anything like that in my area. I might ask to see if anyone has heard about such a thing.

From little acorns…

I just recently retired. And when I worked I would meet with the Telecom guys (they were different faiths, but much more fundamental than me, the only Catholic - and a mainframe systems programmer - we work closely with the Telecom guys) and we would drink coffee and talk about things like the Bible, their ways, my ways, etc. Sometimes we even got in heated arguments. But, the next day we met and had coffee again.

We all liked talking about religion. Then one left, another one left, and then I retired. All good things must come to an end. (One left the country to do contract work, and the other left the state so keeping in touch wasn’t done.) The University where I worked did some massive changes, and cutbacks, so they saw greener pastures elsewhere.

But, what I am trying to say is that it is a good idea to talk about our religions and our differences and our similarities. No one tried converting anyone else, we just respected each other and just talked and drank coffee.

It is a good idea to ‘get out of the box’ sometimes.

Yes, it is. Once people start talking to each other in a peaceful spirit all sorts of interesting, worthwhile and pleasant developments are possible.

Respectfully,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

Eric Hyom;5208540:

Hello Mick

They would be good.

We have churches Together prayer breakfasts in a different church each month.

In the UK we are coming to the end of Christian Aid week. Around 300,000 Christians from 20,000 church of many denominations, will work collectively together for justice for the poor.
I am a Street Pastor along with Christians from seven denominations in our town. We go out late on a Friday night trying to bring about a little kindness and peace amongst all the troubled people, the drunks, gangs, drug addicts, homeless, suicidal, the task is great. The crime rate reduces when Street Pastors start in an area, God works wonders for us when we work together.

In the spirit of praying for salvation for all people

EricAwesome!

Indeed it is. In which part of the UK do you live and work, Eric?

Curiously,
Mick

 

[JonNC]

Hello Jon

Amen

And I would not want to be the Catholic at the Last Supper who says, Lord when we do this in memory of you, should we only invite Catholics? We are all in need of Christ’s saving body.

In the spirit of praying for forgiveness

Eric

Hi Eric,
That is a rather bold statement, and I know some (many) Catholics here will disagree with you.
My Church (LCMS) also practices close communion for basically the same reasons the Catholic Church does - full communion and protecting those who might not fully discern.

Within some limits, I agree with your position.

Thanks,
Jon

 

[pickguard1]

Hi Will,

Since the Catholic Church formally claims oneness it didn’t occur to me that there might in practice be a difference between Eastern Catholicism and Western Catholicism. So I didn’t see any need to go beyond consulting the Catechism of the Catholic Church and visiting my local Catholic church.

Cordially,
Mick

Have you, since learning of the different liturgies of the Eastern Catholic rites, considered looking into them to bring you into communion with Rome? Or is communion with Rome the thing that keeps you from looking into them? Just curious.