What do you think of a guitar Mass?

[Newbie2]

Someone said this earlier, and it’s not correct. Electric organs—Hammond organs, Farfisas, etc.—are associated with hockey, skating rinks, and the like. Pipe organs—which is what all the Vatican documents that mention organ have in mind—are not associated with hockey, blues, jazz, and so forth. (The last secular song that I know of featuring a pipe organ was “Awaken” by Yes, which wasn’t exactly a top ten hit.)

I haven’t heard about the strat, but my understanding is that there will be a black telecaster with scarlet piping and binding and a white front pickup.

I remember the old Olympia Arena where the Red Wings used to play years ago had a real pipe organ. I wonder where it went when they tore it down…maybe a Catholic Church.

 

[benedictgal]

I had a lot of misgivings about being a part of this thread because it is a polemical and highly charged subject. It seems that those who hold a Tradtional viewpoint, formed by reading and studying not only the documents of the Church, but, its history of Sacred Music and the writings of the Supreme Pontiffs are either maligned, ridiculed or accused of being disobedient, or worse, of inciting disobedience simply because we are trying to be faithful to the Church’s intent and definition.

The guitar, in my opinion, does not reflect the sacred character of what we are engaging in, Who we are encountering at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. When Blessed John XXIII wanted to open the windows and bring in fresh air, not a few folks took this to mean throwing out everything that is Sacred, Majestic, Solemn and Beautiful about the Mass and bringing things down to “our” level. But, the authoritative documents that sprang forth in the aftermath of the Council did not call for that at all. In fact, they called for precisely the opposite.

Now, a younger generation is seeking to reclaim for themselves that which my generation had lost. In fact, the younger generation has a real hunger for genuine, Sacred Music, music that is rich in theology and the sacral nature of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I do not want to offend people, but, the OP asked for an opinion and, with all due respect to the folks who have participated in this thread, this is mine.

 

[maryj]

I’m with Benedictgal all the way. When the guitars come out as Mass I cringe…not only do we have a completely refurbished pipe organ that cost our parish 40k to re-do, we have wonderful organists. Our family mass has guitars once a month they even use…I can barely stand to say it…bongos and a triangle…yikes!!!

 

[zab]

I had a lot of misgivings about being a part of this thread because it is a polemical and highly charged subject. It seems that those who hold a Tradtional viewpoint, formed by reading and studying not only the documents of the Church, but, its history of Sacred Music and the writings of the Supreme Pontiffs are either maligned, ridiculed or accused of being disobedient, or worse, of inciting disobedience simply because we are trying to be faithful to the Church’s intent and definition.

The guitar, in my opinion, does not reflect the sacred character of what we are engaging in, Who we are encountering at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. When Blessed John XXIII wanted to open the windows and bring in fresh air, not a few folks took this to mean throwing out everything that is Sacred, Majestic, Solemn and Beautiful about the Mass and bringing things down to “our” level. But, the authoritative documents that sprang forth in the aftermath of the Council did not call for that at all. In fact, they called for precisely the opposite.

Now, a younger generation is seeking to reclaim for themselves that which my generation had lost. In fact, the younger generation has a real hunger for genuine, Sacred Music, music that is rich in theology and the sacral nature of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I do not want to offend people, but, the OP asked for an opinion and, with all due respect to the folks who have participated in this thread, this is mine.

I respect the defense of sacred music and doing all that we can to keep the Mass sacred and free of liturgical abuses. But failing to listen to valid comments, making false accusations, harrassing and ridiculing those who have opinions different than their own and then claiming to be the victim are not things that are becoming of true defenders.

 

[StTommyMore]

I have weighed in on the side of no guitars in Mass. I would like to clarify something. I have no problems whatsoever with guitars used in non-liturgical forms of worship (prayer services, praise and worship, etc). What I mean is that while guitars have no place in the Mass, they are suitable for use outside the liturgy.

 

[MarkThompson]

I have weighed in on the side of no guitars in Mass. I would like to clarify something. I have no problems whatsoever with guitars used in non-liturgical forms of worship (prayer services, praise and worship, etc). What I mean is that while guitars have no place in the Mass, they are suitable for use outside the liturgy.

When you say “no place in the Mass,” I’m curious if you have a response to my post earlier in the thread.

 

[StTommyMore]

When you say “no place in the Mass,” I’m curious if you have a response to my post earlier in the thread.

There is nothing to respond to. You are simply interpreting the documents liberally, whereas i interpret them conservatively. Leave your rock band at the door, thank you.

 

[MarkThompson]

There is nothing to respond to. You are simply interpreting the documents liberally, whereas i interpret them conservatively. Leave your rock band at the door, thank you.

You must be a real smash in the debate club, Tommy.

 

[StTommyMore]

You must be a real smash in the debate club, Tommy.

You have given no compelling evidence for your view. There is nothing to refute. It stands that guitars are not sacred, neither can they be made suitable. Perhaps you can explain how the guitar can be made sacred, when its primary use has been for popular music, which is pretty much antithetical to sacred.

 

[MarkThompson]

You have given no compelling evidence for your view. There is nothing to refute. It stands that guitars are not sacred, neither can they be made suitable. Perhaps you can explain how the guitar can be made sacred, when its primary use has been for popular music, which is pretty much antithetical to sacred.

No one doubts you’re entitled to your own opinion, so of course I’m not going to be able to convince you to any mathematical certainty. Hopefully you can do better that concluding that your point of view is “self-evident”, though, so let’s start the discussion with this:

Suppose you are at a small Mass – maybe on a retreat, maybe on a military base – where you do not have an organ or a piano, but you do have this guy. Would you agree with the statement, “Church documents forbid him to play at Mass”? Please be honest, because if you do then you’re on such a different wavelength that I think we’d have to agree that there is no mutual basis for further discussion.

 

[zab]

Michael Lucarelli

 

[Cat]

I had a lot of misgivings about being a part of this thread because it is a polemical and highly charged subject. It seems that those who hold a Tradtional viewpoint, formed by reading and studying not only the documents of the Church, but, its history of Sacred Music and the writings of the Supreme Pontiffs are either maligned, ridiculed or accused of being disobedient, or worse, of inciting disobedience simply because we are trying to be faithful to the Church’s intent and definition.

The guitar, in my opinion, does not reflect the sacred character of what we are engaging in, Who we are encountering at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. When Blessed John XXIII wanted to open the windows and bring in fresh air, not a few folks took this to mean throwing out everything that is Sacred, Majestic, Solemn and Beautiful about the Mass and bringing things down to “our” level. But, the authoritative documents that sprang forth in the aftermath of the Council did not call for that at all. In fact, they called for precisely the opposite.

Now, a younger generation is seeking to reclaim for themselves that which my generation had lost. In fact, the younger generation has a real hunger for genuine, Sacred Music, music that is rich in theology and the sacral nature of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I do not want to offend people, but, the OP asked for an opinion and, with all due respect to the folks who have participated in this thread, this is mine.

I certainly hope that you don’t think my post (#113) is maligning you, or accusing you of being disobedient, or accusing you of inciting disobedience because you are trying to obey the Church.

There are wise ways to bring about change and there are not-so-wise ways.

I am very glad to see that you are now saying, “in my opinion.” This is a very wise way to bring about change–making it clear that you are expressing a personal opinion, not decreeing sacred doctrine. There are many people in the Catholic Church who are as intelligent or more so than you are. I would cite my bishop as an example–this man is brilliant. And yet, he chooses not to make contemporary music a battleground at this time in our diocese. He expresses his opinion (he favors Latin chant and traditional hymns), but he does not demand that all the parishes toe the line, dump their OCP materials, and start up scholas. I would call him wise to take it easy and gradually work these changes into his parishes rather than steamrolling them in.

Just last night I was re-reading the story of Queen Esther. As you know, the King, under the influence of the evil Haman, had made a decree that all Jews were to be exterminated. Queen Esther, a Jewess herself, was their only hope. What was she to do? The law was that by appearing before the king, her own husband, unbidden, she could be executed.

She COULD have just busted into his majestic presence and demanded that he rescind the evil law, kill Haman instead, and preserve her people. After all, she had righteousness on her side–the very people of God were in danger of extermination and surely God would protect her from the king and his unjust laws!

Do you think this would have been wise of her?

Instead, Queen Esther called upon the Jews to fast and pray for several days, while she and her maidens did the same. Then she dressed in her finest–I get the feeling she was so beautiful that even the most hard-hearted king would have melted at the sight of her. She entered the king’s presence humbly, full of compliments for His Majesty, her husband. She invited him (and Haman, her enemy–consider him as "Marty Haugen!) to a lavish dinner.

Only AFTER she had wined and dined the king and her enemy and treated them with great kindness did she finally speak up and graciously but passionately beg the king to rescind the law and preserve her people.

I think this approach would make a lot of sense for those who wish to see a return to traditional Church music. Yes, you have a lot of history and tradition on your side. Whether or not you are correctly interpreting the various Church documents is open to debate, as you see. Obviously there are many faithful and musically-knowledgeable Catholics who disagree with you, benedictgal, and believe that you are interpreting the documents too narrowly. I am one of those, mainly because I follow the example of my bishop, who is the finest of apostles. I prefer to follow someone that I can see and know rather than someone who posts on an internet site. I hope you can understand that.

At any rate, think about Queen Esther. I do not get the impression that you are impolite or hostile when you do your good work in your diocese, and I think it’s obvious that you are willing to do the actual grunt work to install more ancient forms of music in the Mass, even to the point of giving your money and time.

But I get the impression from CAF that some Catholics are very impolite to the point of rudeness, and that they are willing to disregard their fellow Christians and trample over them in order to eradicate what they see as the Great Evil of contemporary (40 year-old) music in the Mass and replace it immediately with more ancient forms of music. I think these people should study Queen Esther, as well as other examples of Christian charity in the midst of evil. (Another example would be the Christians who were praying behind closed doors while their beloved pastor, Peter, was in prison. There are many other examples.)

 

[Newbie2]

No one doubts you’re entitled to your own opinion, so of course I’m not going to be able to convince you to any mathematical certainty. Hopefully you can do better that concluding that your point of view is “self-evident”, though, so let’s start the discussion with this:

Suppose you are at a small Mass – maybe on a retreat, maybe on a military base – where you do not have an organ or a piano, but you do have this guy. Would you agree with the statement, “Church documents forbid him to play at Mass”? Please be honest, because if you do then you’re on such a different wavelength that I think we’d have to agree that there is no mutual basis for further discussion.

Or maybe the power goes out…

Yeah, the “self-evident” nature of some of the conclusions in this thread escape me also. I respect those who don’t like guitars or certain style of playing, and do appreciate those like BG who clearly state theirs is an opinion.

So let’s please stick with the facts. Guitars are not forbidden. That, of course, does not mean they’re preferred, but the flat-out statement of “fact” that they are forbidden is a falsehood.

Oh, and an acoustic guitar is hardly a “rock band”.

 

[moreorless]

**
The Church has NOT banned Haugen and Haas and the 70s folk/rock music that several CAF posters describe as “insipid” or “unsuitable for Mass.” If you don’t like it, well, that’s OK. If you feel like you’re experiencing Stockholm Syndrome, well, I won’t deny it. But the Church allows it, at least as of this posting.

Cat, you are knocking down a straw man here. If you look at my post, you will see that never once did I argue that Haugen and Hass music is banned. In fact, my post admitted that it is allowed, and I expressed my opinion that it is a good thing that the Church allows some deviation from her clearly expressed preferences. I simply expressed my concern that the deviations, the exceptions, the allowances, have become more prevalent than the use of the music for which the Church has a clearly expressed preference. I do not think that anyone can argue that the clearly expressed preference of the Church is something other than organ and chant. I have never once said that that means organ and chant are the only things allowed, or that other types of music are banned. Never.

**Please realize that many of us truly love these hymns. We did Gather Us In at Mass on Saturday night (our most “traditional” priest, the one that chants all the prayers, was presiding), and as usual, I was brought to tears by the lyrics, which are so meaningful to me.

One of the things that I dislike about internet message boards is that readers cannot tell the poster’s tone of voice, so often things that are not meant uncharitably come across as uncharitable. So please take me at my word when I say that I do not mean for this comment to come across that way. I understand that “many of us truly love these hymns,” and that the words to some of the contemporary pieces “are so meaningful” to some people. But Cat, the Mass is not about you, or what you find meaningful. It is about God. There are some contemporary style hymns that I like too, believe it or not. But I realize that the fact that I like a song or that it is meaningful to me are not the criteria to be used when deciding what is appropriate to accompany the liturgical action of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

The Church teaches that chant is to be held in high esteem and that the organ has pride of place. We should do more than pay lip service to that. The Church has clearly expressed preferences, and we should not just brush them off. Of course, as I have said countless times, that does not mean that other types of music are banned, and I believe that other types of music can be appropriate in some situations. I just think that we should think hard and pray hard before we decide just to pay no attention to the Church’s clearly expressed preferences, or to say, I understand that, but it won’t work at my parish. Other types of music are more meaningful to me. I know that a preference is not a hard-and-fast rule, but it has to mean something, doesn’t it?

All that being said, I appreciate your suggestion, and, in fact, it is what I am trying to do at my small parish in a small town in Nebraska. I am the principal organist and also a cantor at the parish. I have a lot of the responsibility for choosing music. I have not attempted to start chanting the propers at each and every Mass. I have been introducing proper texts and chant slowly. Our pastor is supportive and is good at explaining to the congregation why we are doing that. Sometimes we sing the communion antiphon to an English setting instead of Latin. Sometimes we sing the introit in a call-and-respond fashion, akin to a responsorial psalm. Sometimes we just sing the hymns that the people are used to singing. Instinctively, I took your suggestion without your even having to suggest it to me. Maybe I’m not as dumb as you seem to think that I am.

 

[At_Trent]

No one should be surprised when the gloss black and chrome Fender Novus Ordo Stratocaster® makes its debut next year alongside the Roman Missal, Third Edition.



Can I get an indult for my black and chrome Telecaster ?
Squier Electric Guitars | Fender

 

[GaryTaylor]

Hey easy on the Black Strats…lol

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Honestly, I don’t feel the guitars are appropriate for mass either. Obviously I have no problem with music/guitars or Christian Bands. Matter of fact I’ve seen a few I thought are very good. As I’ve seen christian guitarists who are extremely gifted musicians who don’t play christian music and visa-versa. They may stick to one genre of music or another yet their message is positive.

Within the Mass I never felt right about it. I prefer the pre Vatican II mass, and attend a parish with a pipe organ from the turn of the last century. Yet, this is what I grew in faith in. So I don’t know how my opinion would be, if for example I found Christ today. I very well might have had a very different opinion on this.

 

[crazzeto]

When I go on youth retreats, the songs at Mass are always accompanied by a guitar, whereas at any other Mass, it’s an organ or a piano. I’ve met several youth ministers, but only one has had a problem with a guitar Mass. She says that an instrument like a guitar “brings God down to our level,” and that the human voice is the most beautiful instrument because God gave it to us, so we should use the best materials for God. What’s your opinion?

God already condecended when he took on human flesh, I’m not sure guitar can do something Christ didn’t already do. God condecended in order that we may be brought to him.

Personally I don’t have a specific problem with guitars in mass per-se, other than I happen to much prefer the traditional. This is a personal choice of mine however, far be it from me to disparage something the vatican takes no issue with in the mass.

 

[crazzeto]

At Trent, GeryTaylor:

God prefers Gibson

http://www.ibanezcollectors.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19574.0;attach=20544;image

 

[zab]

**At least you were reasonable enough to phrase your statement as a personal opinion : “Objectively, I cannot see how Haugen/Hass guitar masses do that.” That’s wise of you. **

**But many other posters on CAF make pronouncements about this music and the instruments as though they are quoting from Church documents, when in reality, they’re just stating their own personal opinion. **

Cat, you are knocking down a straw man here. If you look at my post, you will see that never once did I argue that Haugen and Hass music is banned. In fact, my post admitted that it is allowed, and I expressed my opinion that it is a good thing that the Church allows some deviation from her clearly expressed preferences.

I hope this clears things up a bit.

 

[pnewton]

There is nothing to respond to. You are simply interpreting the documents liberally, whereas i interpret them conservatively. Leave your rock band at the door, thank you.

You must be a real smash in the debate club, Tommy.

I do not see as StTommyMore does, but then this is not a debate club. Here the rules of etiquette do not always require a response. This is not “last to answer wins.” I understand StTommyMore’s understanding, and it is well within allowance. If a bishop had the same understanding, and banned guitars in his diocese, I would back him up 100% (and happily, for personal reasons).

Sometimes no answer is the best answer. It is not like the previous post evaporates (usually ).