What Do You Think Of Emmanuel's Wager©?

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Really?

So if your daughter decides to say, “I now define this to be a circle!” you’re going to let her go through the rest of her life calling this a circle?

Really? She can define any word in any way she wants to, and she will never be wrong, just “unconventional”?
Firstly, I never said it was practical to forego conventions. Conventions are quite useful. However, a convention is not a matter of fact. An excellent example is the word “terrible”. Centuries ago it had the opposite of its present connotations, and a very different denotation: it roughly meant “great”. Great, too, has transformed…err…greatly, from “powerful” to “highly agreeable”.

If you commit yourself to the idea that there are “right” and “wrong” ways to define words, then either our ancestors were mistaken on this matter or we are. It’s much more reasonable to allow words to gradually change meaning to adapt to their everyday use.
Have you ever heard of “free market fundamentalism”?

Do you think the free market is a political movement?
No, actually I hadn’t heard of it. Schools present it as “laissez-faire capitalism” which is the historically accepted name. And yes, the free market is a good deal more political than my opinions on epistemology.
I suggest that you, er, dispassionately look at this paradigm: the ONLY way to evaluate all things in our world is DISPASSIONATELY.
That depends on what you mean by “evaluate”. I think it’s best to be dispassionate when one searches for truth, where “passionate” is taken to mean sentimental. Truth isn’t the only aspect of the human experience, of course. I “evaluate” my friendships based on more than just the facts pertaining to those friendships, which occasionally means that I make mistakes and give people more leverage in my relationships than I should. Such are sentiments.
 
It’s not semantics. There really is a difference between believing that something is true, believing that something is untrue and simply not knowing. It is truly beyond me how you do not see that.
I agree, actually. As I said, taking “agnostic” to mean “claiming to not know whether gods exist” a Christian can be agnostic, as can an atheist. Your answer to the question “Do you believe we can know?” isn’t dependent on “Do you believe?” You can believe in God without classifying the belief as knowledge. Thus there are four possibilities: agnostic atheists, strong atheists, agnostic theists, and strong theists. This is a simple and elegant way to categorize them.
If the only reason to buy insurance is to insure your home in case of a fire, and you do not believe that this can or will happen, you do not buy insurance.
Well everyone believes that it “can” happen in the sense of being logically possible. I’m saying that it’s silly to say, “I don’t have non-belief with respect to my house burning down because I bought insurance in the unlikely event that it would.” Believing it to be unlikely is an implicit admission that one doesn’t believe it.

Perhaps you’re an intuitionist, but in classical logic, double negatives cancel. So when I see a phrase like “don’t have non-belief” crop up, I am tempted to simplify it and regard it as a belief. Since agnostics don’t believe, they mustn’t not have non-belief. See what I mean? 😛

I’m sorry about all of the negations, but they tend to accumulate when you don’t cancel them out.
You could argue that this is practically non-belief. It is an “I don’t know”, but with a “its probably not true.”
I just don’t see the point in making such a concession. Any non-belief in a ridiculous claim that is logically possible (it’s logically possible that pigs can fly, since laws of physics aren’t laws of logic) falls under “practically non-belief” by this standard. But if you want to call it that, that’s fine. We will agree that, henceforth, any reference I make to non-belief, disbelief, unbelief, etc., means “it’s possible but unlikely given the evidence or lack thereof”. Anything stronger than that will be called “rejection of a claim/belief”. Happy?
 
No, actually I hadn’t heard of it. Schools present it as “laissez-faire capitalism” which is the historically accepted name.
Interesting. You hadn’t heard of it, but yet you know how schools present it and what is the “historically accepted name”?

How is it that you know this, if you weren’t even familiar with the term? :confused:
And yes, the free market is a good deal more political than my opinions on epistemology.
Peculiar that you are able to expand the definition of what is a political system while still remaining obdurately narrow-minded about your definition of what a fundamentalist is.
 
Firstly, I never said it was practical to forego conventions. Conventions are quite useful.
Fair enough. So you retract your statement that “definitions can’t be wrong”.

Clearly, some definitions can be wrong.
That depends on what you mean by “evaluate”. I think it’s best to be dispassionate when one searches for truth, where “passionate” is taken to mean sentimental.
Fair enough. So you are not a DISPASSION ALONE advocate.

👍

I find that most people who embrace a “[fill in the blank] ALONE/ONLY” paradigm are committing a great error in removing other sources of Truth and experience.

Bible ALONE
Faith ALONE
Science ALONE
Reason ALONE
Dispassion ONLY
English ONLY
Jesus was ONLY a man
The Eucharist is symbolic ONLY
Genesis is literal ONLY.

All of the above are only getting 1/2 of it right.

That’s what makes Catholicism so formidable to argue against. Typically we have the both/and approach.

The only “ALONE/ONLY” doctrine we espouse, AFAIK, is that we are saved by Christ ALONE. But even that doesn’t engender a fundamentalist paradigm–Christ is the Eternal Logos, not ONLY the man who walked the earth 2000 years ago.
Truth isn’t the only aspect of the human experience, of course. I “evaluate” my friendships based on more than just the facts pertaining to those friendships, which occasionally means that I make mistakes and give people more leverage in my relationships than I should. Such are sentiments.
The sentence in bold seems to have no relation to the rest of the paragraph. Could you please 'splain?
 
Interesting. You hadn’t heard of it, but yet you know how schools present it and what is the “historically accepted name”?

How is it that you know this, if you weren’t even familiar with the term? :confused:
Capitalism, and in particular laissez-faire capitalism, emerged in the 18th-century. If you can find some 18th-century sources that use the term “free market fundamentalism” instead, then I will gladly concede this point to you. As it stands, it seems laissez-faire was first and, given how it’s taught in schools, remembered by history better than the fundamentalist label.
Peculiar that you are able to expand the definition of what is a political system while still remaining obdurately narrow-minded about your definition of what a fundamentalist is.
Are you honestly suggesting that economics is no more political in nature than epistemological viewpoints? I mean, you seriously want to commit yourself to that position?

You know, Obama’s answer to the Problem of Induction is what really clinched his election in my opinion. 😉
Fair enough. So you retract your statement that “definitions can’t be wrong”.
No, you’re confusing utility with correctness. Again, if you think definitions are either right or wrong, then who was wrong about the definition of “terrible”: us, or our ancestors?

Philosophically, I think the problem can be avoided if you regard words as being inseparable from their definitions. So when someone’s using a “different definition of a word”, it really means they’re using a different word that may happen to have a similarities to other words that have the same spelling and pronunciation. This would be a cumbersome way of classifying words, but it would eliminate arguments about conventions.
The sentence in bold seems to have no relation to the rest of the paragraph. Could you please 'splain?
I am saying that if truth were indeed the entirety of human experience, it would be difficult to justify entertaining the biases that, whether we like to admit it or not, we all indulge in to make our lives more enjoyable. For example, I would go so far as to say it’s impossible to judge one’s friends objectively for any non-trivial matter; friends are almost always given the benefit of the doubt, regardless of whether the evidence is in their favor.
 
Capitalism, and in particular laissez-faire capitalism, emerged in the 18th-century. If you can find some 18th-century sources that use the term “free market fundamentalism” instead, then I will gladly concede this point to you. As it stands, it seems laissez-faire was first and, given how it’s taught in schools, remembered by history better than the fundamentalist label.
This is a nonsequitur.

You weren’t familiar with the use of the term “fundamentalism” as it applies to things other than the religious and political arena.

I showed you an example of the term being in wide use. To the tune of OVER 275,000 sites.

Again, here it is:

google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=free%20market%20fundamentalism

Clearly, the term “fundamentalism” need not apply ONLY to religious or political doctrines.

If you want to extend the definition of “political” to include “economic”, then that’s fine.

But then you ought to be able to extend the definition of “fundamentalist” from ONLY applying to the religious and political to “anyone who is recusant to reason”.

Consistency is the name of the game here.

Inconsistency is not reasonable.

Just like it was inconsistent of you to say, “Physical evils have a source. And we can search for the reasons for physical evil. But moral evils just are. And it’s futile to search for reasons we choose to do moral evil. We just do. Sometimes there is no answer.”
 
No, you’re confusing utility with correctness. Again, if you think definitions are either right or wrong, then who was wrong about the definition of “terrible”: us, or our ancestors?
Sure, definitions can evolve.

However, there is such a thing as a wrong definition.

On that we are agreed, yes?
I am saying that if truth were indeed the entirety of human experience, it would be difficult to justify entertaining the biases that, whether we like to admit it or not, we all indulge in to make our lives more enjoyable. For example, I would go so far as to say it’s impossible to judge one’s friends objectively for any non-trivial matter; friends are almost always given the benefit of the doubt, regardless of whether the evidence is in their favor.
You are making the mistaken in assuming that we know something subjectively ONLY, it can’t be true.

Our assessment of our friendships may be based on our subjectivism alone, but that doesn’t make them false. I could subjectively look at the relationship with my husband and say, “It is the best marriage I could have ever had!” and that might be the truth.
 
No, you’re confusing utility with correctness. Again, if you think definitions are either right or wrong, then who was wrong about the definition of “terrible”: us, or our ancestors?
I think you’re confusing “right/wrong” with “absolute truth/falsity.” A semantic shift of a particular word means that there is a new/different (narrowed or widened) connotation of that word, depending on the context of space and time. As far as I know, there has never been a semantic shift of the word “triangle.” So if someone refers to a triangle, when that person really means square, then he/she has misunderstood the definition of a particular English word (namely, the word triangle). A shape with three sides is the right definition. A shape with four sides is the wrong definition.

With that in mind, I think your example is wrong – if I said “a terrible storm is coming” in the 18th century, nobody would think “oh, he means a good storm is on the way.” You are confusing “great” with something good, or something that is the opposite of the negative connotation of the word terrible. Great still means powerful or formidable - as in, a “great gust of wind” or a “great storm cloud” or a “great burst of excitement.” Similarly, the word “terrible” still means powerful or formidable. For example: a “terrible” wind or a “terrible” mess or a “terrible” responsibility or a “terrible” risk.

Hope this helps.
 
I think you’re confusing “right/wrong” with “absolute truth/falsity.” A semantic shift of a particular word means that there is a new/different (narrowed or widened) connotation of that word, depending on the context of space and time. As far as I know, there has never been a semantic shift of the word “triangle.” So if someone refers to a triangle, when that person really means square, then he/she has misunderstood the definition of a particular English word (namely, the word triangle). A shape with three sides is the right definition. A shape with four sides is the wrong definition.

With that in mind, I think your example is wrong – if I said “a terrible storm is coming” in the 18th century, nobody would think “oh, he means a good storm is on the way.” You are confusing “great” with something good, or something that is the opposite of the negative connotation of the word terrible. Great still means powerful or formidable - as in, a “great gust of wind” or a “great storm cloud” or a “great burst of excitement.” Similarly, the word “terrible” still means powerful or formidable. For example: a “terrible” wind or a “terrible” mess or a “terrible” responsibility or a “terrible” risk.

Hope this helps.
 
If you want to extend the definition of “political” to include “economic”, then that’s fine.
It’s not an extension, but rather an observation. Economics has very immediate consequences to politics and vice-versa, so economics has a political nature.
But then you ought to be able to extend the definition of “fundamentalist” from ONLY applying to the religious and political to “anyone who is recusant to reason”.
Well you’re able to “extend” a definition to any extent you want, but it will be confusing for everyone you’re conversing with because the definition is unconventional.
Consistency is the name of the game here.
Inconsistency is not reasonable.
Speaking of consistency, why is it acceptable for the definition of “fundamentalist” to change over time, but it’s inexcusable for the definition of “agnostic” to change over time?
Just like it was inconsistent of you to say, “Physical evils have a source. And we can search for the reasons for physical evil. But moral evils just are. And it’s futile to search for reasons we choose to do moral evil. We just do. Sometimes there is no answer.”
I didn’t say that, so I don’t know why you used quotation marks. I never denied that there are reasons we choose to do evil. I only said that the reasons are psychological, and nothing else needs to be postulated beyond that. The “reasons” that I doubt are the cosmic reasons, such as reasons of the form “the universe was designed so that this particular event would occur”.
Sure, definitions can evolve.

However, there is such a thing as a wrong definition.

On that we are agreed, yes?
How do you decide whether or not a definition is wrong then?

Consider the definition of “agnostic” that you have in mind. You believe this to be the correct one, yet you concede that it could evolve in the future. But how could it evolve in your scheme? You would criticize any deviation from the “correct” definition, so the definition would never be allowed to change. Definitions ultimately expand by these deviations in their usage, after all. So again, if we take seriously the notion that definitions have truth values, they would be immutable.
I think you’re confusing “right/wrong” with “absolute truth/falsity.” A semantic shift of a particular word means that there is a new/different (narrowed or widened) connotation of that word, depending on the context of space and time. As far as I know, there has never been a semantic shift of the word “triangle.”
To the contrary, the notion of a triangle has been generalized considerably. The triangles of Euclidean geometry are quite different than the triangles of elliptic geometry, for example.

We could take the stance that the same word can’t be used differently in different contexts, but that would be detrimental to mathematics. It would obscure the relationships between math’s different branches.
So if someone refers to a triangle, when that person really means square, then he/she has misunderstood the definition of a particular English word (namely, the word triangle). A shape with three sides is the right definition. A shape with four sides is the wrong definition.
Again, you would no doubt say something like, “a shape with three straight sides is the right definition, while including curved sides is wrong”. But that conception would be at odds with the triangles of differing geometries. This is because the geometries disagree on what “straight” means.
 
To the contrary, the notion of a triangle has been generalized considerably. The triangles of Euclidean geometry are quite different than the triangles of elliptic geometry, for example.

Again, you would no doubt say something like, “a shape with three straight sides is the right definition, while including curved sides is wrong”. But that conception would be at odds with the triangles of differing geometries. This is because the geometries disagree on what “straight” means.
So you admit that there are right and wrong definitions of a triangle, depending on the context? Kudos.
 
It’s not an extension, but rather an observation. Economics has very immediate consequences to politics and vice-versa, so economics has a political nature.
Can you explain why you are so very broad in your definition of “political” but so very, very, very narrow regarding your definition of “fundamentalist”?

It does seem to demonstrate a rather, um, fundamentalist view of a definition.

Just sayin’…
Well you’re able to “extend” a definition to any extent you want, but it will be confusing for everyone you’re conversing with because the definition is unconventional.
Well, over 275,000 sites seem to have an understanding that fundamentalism doesn’t have to extend to only religious or political arenas.

Not sure why you can’t understand that fundamentalists are anyone who are recusant to reason.

At any rate, I offer you a very standard dictionary definition which doesn’t mention the religious or political arena.

“strict adherence to the basic principles of any subject or discipline”

Oh, and just for good measure, here’s another site that supports a definition of fundamentalism that doesn’t include the religious or political.

“strict adherence to the fundamental principles of any set of beliefs”

So, please stop being so fundamentalist about your definition of fundamentalism.

Although, even by your standard, the definition I have espoused meets your criteria: it is indeed found in the dictionary. A fundamentalist is anyone who strictly adheres to a basic principle.

No mention of religion or politics is required to be a fundamentalist.

By the dictionary’s definition.
 
Well you’re able to “extend” a definition to any extent you want, but it will be confusing for everyone you’re conversing with because the definition is unconventional.
Well, yeah.

That’s the Catholic position as to why it’s wrong to use a unconventional definition for what has been traditionally this type of thing:

http://tws1.ftwmedia.netdna-cdn.com...bride-and-groom-heart-wedding-cake-topper.jpg

But that is fodder for another thread.

Suffice it to say that we are agreed: no one gets to simply declare that he wants to change a definition.
 
Speaking of consistency, why is it acceptable for the definition of “fundamentalist” to change over time, but it’s inexcusable for the definition of “agnostic” to change over time?
Perhaps if you could cite a definition of “agnostic” of old (and your source, of course), and then cite the modern day definition (and your source) we could chat further.

Right now, however, I have no comprehension of what exactly your point is vis a vis definitions of agnosticism changing.
I didn’t say that, so I don’t know why you used quotation marks. I never denied that there are reasons we choose to do evil. I only said that the reasons are psychological, and nothing else needs to be postulated beyond that. The “reasons” that I doubt are the cosmic reasons, such as reasons of the form “the universe was designed so that this particular event would occur”.
You’re simply moving the source of evil, but not giving an explanation as to why we’re psychologically faulty.

You haven’t answered the question as to why, with billions and billions of prototypes, there hasn’t been a single human person who has never, in the entirety of his lifespan of conscious choice, made a typo*.

*(It’s a metaphor, 'k?)

Why is that?
How do you decide whether or not a definition is wrong then?
As long as it’s consonant with what is true, what it truly is, I am all for evolution of definitions. 👍

So it can be true that a person can by “gay” and be happy. That’s consistent with truth.

And it can also be true that a person can be “gay” and homosexual. That’s consistent with truth.

But a man can never be “married” (to another man) even if he’s a guy living with another man in a romantic relationship. It’s just not consonant with reality.
 
Speaking of consistency, why is it acceptable for the definition of “fundamentalist” to change over time, but it’s inexcusable for the definition of “agnostic” to change over time?
I think we can avoid going further down this tributary of “what is a fundamentalist and is Oreoracle a fundamentalist” if we can disavow you from this (fundamentalist) POV:

“The ONLY way to evaluate the truth of a situation is by DISPASSION ALONE”.

If you reject the above, then you are released from being called a fundamentalist.

However, if you are adamantine that one must be ONLY DISPASSIONATE about evaluating life’s situations, then…
 
So you admit that there are right and wrong definitions of a triangle, depending on the context? Kudos.
That’s not actually what I said. My position is more like this: Suppose I could talk to a geometer of the 18th-century who had never heard of other geometries. This geometer will have a Euclidean preconception of what a “triangle” is. When discussing another geometry with them, I would propose the definition of “triangle” that is used in that geometry. Their reaction may very well be that they dislike the definition, and that they would refrain from using it in practice because it is so unconventional. However, nothing should stop that geometer from accommodating my definition for the sake of the discussion and translating it into their own terms if they like. Their opinion about the “correctness” of the definition (whatever that means) is entirely irrelevant so long as the discrepancies between various usages of the word are understood by both parties.

Because the definition can be translated into something with which the geometer is familiar, my imposing that particular definition on our conversation would have no effect on the validity of our arguments. If the geometer finds a contradiction in my arguments in terms of his version of the definitions, it will correspond to a contradiction in my version. So again, the choice of definitions is irrelevant so long as their differences are appreciated by both parties.
That’s the Catholic position as to why it’s wrong to use a unconventional definition for what has been traditionally this type of thing:
I have been advised recently that I should be highly skeptical that the opinions of individual Catholics are representative of the Church’s official stance, so I’m going to have to see a citation to the part of the Catechism that defends definitions on the basis of convention. 😉
Suffice it to say that we are agreed: no one gets to simply declare that he wants to change a definition.
That isn’t what I said; see my response to Stew above. I noticed that you evaded my question about how definitions would ever change in your framework. Any change, no matter how gradual, involves a deviation from a commonly accepted definition. Since you regard the commonly accepted ones as correct, deviations are never permissible (as they would be incorrect due to being deviant), so the definitions would never change. So again, if we take the idea that definitions are correct or incorrect seriously, they would be immutable.
Perhaps if you could cite a definition of “agnostic” of old (and your source, of course), and then cite the modern day definition (and your source) we could chat further.
Wikipedia has a nice section within the article on “agnosticism” that addresses the various types of agnosticism. It is called, appropriately enough, “Types of Agnosticism”, and each type has sources for its usage. I’ll copy and paste the section below:
Agnostic atheism: The view of those who do not believe in the existence of any deity, but do not claim to know if a deity does or does not exist.
Agnostic theism: The view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence.
Apathetic or pragmatic agnosticism: The view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic.
Strong agnosticism (also called “hard”, “closed”, “strict”, or “permanent agnosticism”): The view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities, and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, “I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you.”
Weak agnosticism (also called “soft”, “open”, “empirical”, or “temporal agnosticism”): The view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable; therefore, one will withhold judgment until evidence, if any, becomes available. A weak agnostic would say, “I don’t know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day, if there is evidence, we can find something out.”
Note that my usage of the term corresponds to “strong agnosticism” which is consistent with the variants of agnostic theism and agnostic atheism.
You’re simply moving the source of evil, but not giving an explanation as to why we’re psychologically faulty.
If we consider our evolution from more primitive life, there is no reason nature would favor “psychological perfection” as you conceive of it.

For example, natural selection would never produce perfectly happy creatures that are easily pleased. For one thing, if we were easily pleased, we wouldn’t feel so compelled to compete for mates (we’d be happy with or without them), so sexual selection would be defunct and our reproduction rate would fall below our predation rate. We would become extinct.

So the question itself is poorly framed. We are psychologically perfect from the perspective of natural selection, which is what accounts for our origins from primitive life. Being psychologically faulty by *our own *measures doesn’t undermine this understanding in the slightest.
However, if you are adamantine that one must be ONLY DISPASSIONATE about evaluating life’s situations, then…
Perhaps you could provide an example of when passion would be necessary for grasping the truth? I’m not just talking about a situation in which it helps, but a situation in which it would be impossible to understand something without passion.
 
That’s not actually what I said. My position is more like this: Suppose I could talk to a geometer of the 18th-century who had never heard of other geometries. This geometer will have a Euclidean preconception of what a “triangle” is. When discussing another geometry with them, I would propose the definition of “triangle” that is used in that geometry. Their reaction may very well be that they dislike the definition, and that they would refrain from using it in practice because it is so unconventional. However, nothing should stop that geometer from accommodating my definition for the sake of the discussion and translating it into their own terms if they like. Their opinion about the “correctness” of the definition (whatever that means) is entirely irrelevant so long as the discrepancies between various usages of the word are understood by both parties.

Because the definition can be translated into something with which the geometer is familiar, my imposing that particular definition on our conversation would have no effect on the validity of our arguments. If the geometer finds a contradiction in my arguments in terms of his version of the definitions, it will correspond to a contradiction in my version. So again, the choice of definitions is irrelevant so long as their differences are appreciated by both parties.
Again, you’re talking about a word that has an expanded definition - Euclidean versus non-Euclidean. The word “triangle” would not mean “square” or “circle” no matter the century in which you pretend to live.
 
Again, you’re talking about a word that has an expanded definition - Euclidean versus non-Euclidean. The word “triangle” would not mean “square” or “circle” no matter the century in which you pretend to live.
Firstly, we should be cautious here. There is a broad definition of “triangle” within differential geometry of which the Euclidean and elliptic triangles are special cases. But within those respective geometries, the two definitions of “triangle” are incompatible. If we had developed an elliptic geometry first, the Euclidean notion would be contested instead. If there had been different varieties of geometry that developed independently from each other, then a connection may never have been noted between the different conceptions of “triangle”. So generalizations are very much post hoc in that it’s only after we accept deviations from the original definition that we realize similarities between the different usages.

And that’s the problem with insisting that a particular definition is the correct one. Someday we may conceive of an even more general notion of “triangle”, and the purists will insist that the new definition is wrong because we already have the correct one. There may, for all we know, be a geometry in which it is useful to regard what would normally be considered different polygons to be the same. We already have examples in which it’s useful to relax the requirement that the sides be straight, so what’s stopping us from potentially relaxing other requirements such as the number of sides?
 
I have been advised recently that I should be highly skeptical that the opinions of individual Catholics are representative of the Church’s official stance, so I’m going to have to see a citation to the part of the Catechism that defends definitions on the basis of convention. 😉
Fair enough. Sources are forthcoming.

But let me just say: are you really going to profess here on a rather public forum, for all other members here to witness your saying this–that you don’t know that the Catholic Church is against re-defining marriage?

You need a source for this?
 
I have been advised recently that I should be highly skeptical that the opinions of individual Catholics are representative of the Church’s official stance, so I’m going to have to see a citation to the part of the Catechism that defends definitions on the basis of convention. 😉
Fair enough. Sources are forthcoming
From the USCCB on why we can’t re-define what is true:

Why can’t marriage be “redefined” to include two men or two women?
The word “marriage” isn’t simply a label that can be attached to different types of relationships. Instead, “marriage” reflects a deep reality – the reality of the unique, fruitful, lifelong union that is only possible between a man and a woman. Just as oxygen and hydrogen are essential to water, sexual difference is essential to marriage. The attempt to “redefine” marriage to include two persons of the same sex denies the reality of what marriage is. It is as impossible as trying to “redefine” water to include oxygen and nitrogen
 
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