What do you think of men who want a submissive wife?

[EasterJoy]

So, no specific answers?

That’s not a lot of help.

I’ll add my own.

–Should she sign a tax return or insurance claim that she knows is fraudulent?

–Should she give him his car keys when he’s drunk or senile?

–Should she empty out her 401(k) on his orders when he’s manic?

–When she can see that the children have a disability, but her husband pooh poohs it, should she leave the children without needed therapy, when each year of delay means that the children will be less and less able to improve?

–Should she perform sexual acts that are immoral at his request?

I’m pretty sure that this whole submission mania is very much a Protestant fundamentalist thing, and it makes little sense in a Catholic context. A Catholic wife in doubt can always go to her priest, and it’s very likely she’ll be told that she does not have to comply with unreasonable requests. (If you look at those Casti Connubi quotes again, you’ll find that the right to refuse unreasonable requests is in the text.)

These are no-brainers. Honestly, what if I asked this:

Should a parish staffer keep false books because the pastor tells her to do it? Does this mean a pastor does not have authority in his own parish?

Should a sixteen year old give his mother the keys when she is drunk or senile? Does this mean a parent has no authority?

Should the treasurer of a company hand all the funds over to the CEO when the CEO has some wild hare scheme in mind? Does that mean the CEO has no authority over the officers of a company?

Should a teacher simply submit when a principal proposes breaking state laws concerning the rights of disabled students? Does that mean the principal has no authority in a school?

These are the easy questions in a marriage. The difficult questions come when there is an honest difference of opinion and there is not any obvious compromise. What do you do when you have to have a yes/no decision in a counsel of two and the counsel is deadlocked?

Having said that, my uncle once said, “In our marriage, she decides all the minor things, and I make all the major decisions. We’ve been lucky, though, because in over 50 years nothing major has come up.” A good pastor does not try to pull the authority card to run roughshod over a parish. A good bishop does not try to pull the authority card to run roughshod over his priests. A good CEO does not try to pull the authority card to run roughshod over his company’s officers. Likewise, a good husband never pulls the “authority” card simply to get his own way. To do that is a failing, plain and simple. This is because the Christian who holds authority is always a steward, and nothing more.

No, the authority card comes out when duty requires it, and it is not fun for the person in authority to have to use it. In an ideal world, it does not come out at all, not in an entire priesthood nor an entire marriage nor in the life of a company. No husband should look forward to the day when he has to overrule his wife on anything at all, but both should strive to be of one mind. That does not mean that authority is not a real thing. It means that it is far more about leadership and duty than anything else, and for a Christian it must never be about a personal grasp for power over the ones that one leads. All who have authority as Christians ultimately report to the One Shepherd. It is their duty not to scatter when there are wolves, but to stand fast. That is what Christian authority is all about.

 

[EasterJoy]

To get to the original point:
If a bishop were interviewing a candidate for the priesthood, any guy who is too cranked up about “making his authority felt” is going to be booted from the seminary. A bishop would do the laity wrong and fail in his duty if he were to delegate any priestly authority to someone like that. Likewise, a person who sees that a spouse would seek to grasp at authority needs to realize that this is not going to be someone who will bear the duties and sacrifices of authority well, to the detriment of both those he leads and those the group he leads ought to benefit. The person who identifies a warped view of authority in a spouse ought to keep looking. Neither should a person in authority agree to rely on someone as a partner who has a wrong-headed view of submission. A lot of trouble can come from that, too.

 

[Sarcelle]

True leadership, at least the exercise of it, is rare. At least it is in the corporate world. What I often see in lieu of leadership is micro-management. A micro-manager will stifle the group members due to control issues while a true leader will encourage the full force of the members talents for the good of the team. This is true for the business world and in a sense may be also true of a marriage.

There is so much focus on the submission of the wife but what about a husband loving his wife? A husband should not stifle a wife’s gifts but to encourage her to flourish as a person. Isn’t this what love is about? To will the good of a person? A husband is not supposed to be a micro-manager but a leader.

 

[PolarGuy]

Bud Grant, an NFL hall of fame coach, said that the best leaders are those who get their underlings to think they achieved great deeds on their own, and the worst are those who tell everyone how important their own leadership is.

I can’t help thinking that those in favor of submissive wives see themselves as needing to have their wives know their husband is superior. There is absolutely nothing in any of their posts suggesting that their attitude is “I’m in charge but she thinks she is.” To the contrary, there’s an unspoken attitude of “I’m in charge…and she better know it!” And that alone speaks volumes.

 

[EasterJoy]

True leadership, at least the exercise of it, is rare. At least it is in the corporate world. What I often see in lieu of leadership is micro-management. A micro-manager will stifle the group members due to control issues while a true leader will encourage the full force of the members talents for the good of the team. This is true for the business world and in a sense may be also true of a marriage.

There is so much focus on the submission of the wife but what about a husband loving his wife? A husband should not stifle a wife’s gifts but to encourage her to flourish as a person. Isn’t this what love is about? To will the good of a person? A husband is not supposed to be a micro-manager but a leader.

In any event, it has to be remembered that a wife alone chooses her husband. She is ultimately the judge of whether or not his leadership capacity is one that she finds credible. This is hardly less true of a husband. Of the ideal wife, Proverbs says, “Her husband, entrusting his heart to her, has an unfailing prize” (Prov. 31:11) and “She opens her mouth in wisdom, and on her tongue is kindly counsel.” (Prov. 31:26) A husband relies on his wife’s abilities and trustworthiness in her duties, and not just the other way around. He gives her command over his household, too. She has authority over all he has, and his body is hers. The two of them had better agree on how this is all going to work, and both had better realize that their marriage is the proving ground meant to make each into a saint. You want a spouse who does not ask what marriage is going to do for him or her so much as what he or she is going to be called upon to do and give, because of being married.

 

[Sarcelle]

In any event, it has to be remembered that a wife alone chooses her husband. She is ultimately the judge of whether or not his leadership capacity is one that she finds credible. This is hardly less true of a husband. Of the ideal wife, Proverbs says, “Her husband, entrusting his heart to her, has an unfailing prize” (Prov. 31:11) and “She opens her mouth in wisdom, and on her tongue is kindly counsel.” (Prov. 31:26) A husband relies on his wife’s abilities and trustworthiness in her duties, and not just the other way around. He gives her command over his household, too. She has authority over all he has, and his body is hers. The two of them had better agree on how this is all going to work, and both had better realize that their marriage is the proving ground meant to make each into a saint. You want a spouse who does not ask what marriage is going to do for him or her so much as what he or she is going to be called upon to do and give, because of being married.

Exactly.

 

[Xantippe]

These are no-brainers. Honestly, what if I asked this:

Should a parish staffer keep false books because the pastor tells her to do it? Does this mean a pastor does not have authority in his own parish?

Should a sixteen year old give his mother the keys when she is drunk or senile? Does this mean a parent has no authority?

Should the treasurer of a company hand all the funds over to the CEO when the CEO has some wild hare scheme in mind? Does that mean the CEO has no authority over the officers of a company?

Should a teacher simply submit when a principal proposes breaking state laws concerning the rights of disabled students? Does that mean the principal has no authority in a school?

These are the easy questions in a marriage.

**Yes. However, they are tough questions for people that take the “strong” view of submission where the husband takes the wife’s views into account in his decision-making and then if there’s any disagreement, she is supposed to submit as the rule in the marriage. That is a very clean and simple approach and it does make good use of all the Biblical “submit” verses, but I was pointing out that that can’t possibly be the whole story–St. Peter and St. Paul did not intend for wives to help their husbands commit fraud, let their senile husbands drive and commit mayhem, use the grocery money at the Indian casino, molest their children, etc, etc. If wifely submission is not the only solution to any and all marital disagreements, it would seem that Ephesians 5:22-24 will not and cannot settle all marital disagreements.

That’s actually kind of a big deal, to get people that are very keen on the “submit” verses to realize that those verses are not sufficient in and of themselves to help a wife make good decisions about when she needs to submit. There needs to be a more detailed, nuanced comprehensive rule in place–for instance that found in Casti Connubii.
**

The difficult questions come when there is an honest difference of opinion and there is not any obvious compromise. What do you do when you have to have a yes/no decision in a counsel of two and the counsel is deadlocked?

Bring in a third party? If it’s not a big deal, most of the time couples will settle things at home because it’s just too much of a hassle. But if it is a big deal, why not let a pastor, therapist, or similar cast a vote?

 

[Xantippe]

Back to the question, “What do you think of men who want a submissive wife?”

I would encourage a guy like that to consider the fact that a woman that is docile, easy to persuade, and submissive is probably going to be like that with everybody. So if she has a friend that’s a little out there, she’s going to pick up her friend’s loony ideas. Or if you have a tradesmen who tells her, “This is going to cost eighty gazillion dollars. I can take a check right now,” she’s going to write him the check. Or if somebody tries to get her into a multilevel marketing company or go to a multilevel marketing party, your wife is going to go…and spend money. Or if she’s shopping in a store, she may wind up buying something she doesn’t need, just because the salesperson was so nice and she didn’t want to disappoint him!

So, there is a downside to docile, persuadable, submissive women. You might actually find life on the whole easier with a wife that knows how to say “no.”

 

[pianistclare]

Back to the question, “What do you think of men who want a submissive wife?”

I would encourage a guy like that to consider the fact that a woman that is docile, easy to persuade, and submissive is probably going to be like that with everybody. So if she has a friend that’s a little out there, she’s going to pick up her friend’s loony ideas. Or if you have a tradesmen who tells her, “This is going to cost eighty gazillion dollars. I can take a check right now,” she’s going to write him the check. Or if somebody tries to get her into a multilevel marketing company or go to a multilevel marketing party, your wife is going to go…and spend money. Or if she’s shopping in a store, she may wind up buying something she doesn’t need, just because the salesperson was so nice and she didn’t want to disappoint him!

So, there is a downside to docile, persuadable, submissive women. You might actually find life on the whole easier with a wife that knows how to say “no.”

Yes. Absolutely. No substitute for common sense.

 

[Xantippe]

To continue, one also often hears stories of sweet, good little women who depended all their lives on their husband’s very good judgment. Then, one day, the husband dies, and the sweet, good little woman (who has been left very well off but has the street smarts of an 18-year-old) is then fleeced by every scammer and ne’er-do-well relative in the tri-state area.

Those are very sad situations, both for mom and for the good kids that are left to pick up the pieces when everything that dad worked for for 40 years disappears in the blink of an eye.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

To continue, one also often hears stories of sweet, good little women who depended all their lives on their husband’s very good judgment. Then, one day, the husband dies, and the sweet, good little woman (who has been left very well off but has the street smarts of an 18-year-old) is then fleeced by every scammer and ne’er-do-well relative in the tri-state area.

Those are very sad situations, both for mom and for the good kids that are left to pick up the pieces when everything that dad worked for for 40 years disappears in the blink of an eye.

Unfortunately, this happened to my aunt. She married young to an older man; I never knew his exact age but I’m sure he was at least ten years older, but perhaps closer to twenty. Of course he died and left her a widow.

I know of at least two cases where she was conned out of significant amounts of money. One involved repairs to her attic that were never done, another was a more drawn-out scheme with a “friend” constantly asking her to lend her money for various crises, and finally skipping town with all the debts unpaid.

Now she DOES have two sons who should have supported and protected her per the Christian Patriarchy model, unfortunately for various reasons they haven’t been able to do that. She recently had a stroke and it is unclear what will happen to her. She may wind up stuck in a nursing home.

I suppose you could make a case that the world shouldn’t be like that, perhaps Pope Francis himself would agree. But I don’t think “letting the world victimize you so you can say you were a good Catholic, even though the Church doesn’t actually teach such rigid gender roles” is a good idea either.

It also seems that some of the neo-traditionalists focus on only on the WOMAN leading a “traditional” life without actually holding men to the same standards. My aunt is not a neo-traditionalist by any means, I think it was more her overall, well, “submissive” personality that led her to her predicament. My other aunts who grew up in the same family are much more independent, one actually owns her own business and is older than her husband.

 

[Walking_Home]

Because it’s not Christ like.
This is what we are called to. All of us. Husbands and wives.
THIS is what St. Paul speaks of, if you interpret the passages correctly. Paul did not submit to any man…he only submitted to God. We are to follow each other in Christ, and what Christ would have us do; which is chiefly to help each other to heaven, and choose the good.
When we seek the best for each other, there’s we find the will of God. Not man’s will. Or woman’s.

---

Ditto.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

I haven’t read the whole thread so I don’t know if this has been covered, but I know several men who married women from specific ethnicities/cultures solely for the fact that they are known to be submissive (in the doormat sense). At least a couple of them joined the military specifically for this purpose (ie. so they could be stationed in a particular country just to find that type of wife). A couple others are gay and/or child molesters and wanted someone who would (they hoped) help cover their other lifestyle. Giving my full, unvarnished opinion of these “men” would be extremely uncharitable and would probably get me a warning at the least.

The only one whose situation doesn’t upset me as much is the one whose punching bag of a wife finally listened to her American friends and realized she didn’t need to keep behaving that way. (For the record, to the best of my knowledge, he didn’t actually beat her, but he wouldn’t let her speak to his friends unless he gave her permission and he would have her wait on them hand and foot, often in a bikini or other skimpy clothing, while they drank, smoked, watched TV and played games.) She got an education, became the real breadwinner in the family and completely turned the tables on her husband. The last time I saw him (as she was forcing him to break ties with his old friends and settle into his new stay-at-home dad role), he was just as much of a lapdog as he’d always forced her to be. It wasn’t an ideal situation but it was hard not to be amused at how she’d taken charge of the situation.

 

[Walking_Home]

Back to the question, “What do you think of men who want a submissive wife?”

I would encourage a guy like that to consider the fact that a woman that is docile, easy to persuade, and submissive is probably going to be like that with everybody. So if she has a friend that’s a little out there, she’s going to pick up her friend’s loony ideas. Or if you have a tradesmen who tells her, “This is going to cost eighty gazillion dollars. I can take a check right now,” she’s going to write him the check. Or if somebody tries to get her into a multilevel marketing company or go to a multilevel marketing party, your wife is going to go…and spend money. Or if she’s shopping in a store, she may wind up buying something she doesn’t need, just because the salesperson was so nice and she didn’t want to disappoint him!

So, there is a downside to docile, persuadable, submissive women. You might actually find life on the whole easier with a wife that knows how to say “no.”

---

Agree.

 

[Walking_Home]

I haven’t read the whole thread so I don’t know if this has been covered, but I know several men who married women from specific ethnicities/cultures solely for the fact that they are known to be submissive (in the doormat sense). At least a couple of them joined the military specifically for this purpose (ie. so they could be stationed in a particular country just to find that type of wife). A couple others are gay and/or child molesters and wanted someone who would (they hoped) help cover their other lifestyle. Giving my full, unvarnished opinion of these “men” would be extremely uncharitable and would probably get me a warning at the least.

The only one whose situation doesn’t upset me as much is the one whose punching bag of a wife finally listened to her American friends and realized she didn’t need to keep behaving that way. (For the record, to the best of my knowledge, he didn’t actually beat her, but he wouldn’t let her speak to his friends unless he gave her permission and he would have her wait on them hand and foot, often in a bikini or other skimpy clothing, while they drank, smoked, watched TV and played games.) She got an education, became the real breadwinner in the family and completely turned the tables on her husband. The last time I saw him (as she was forcing him to break ties with his old friends and settle into his new stay-at-home dad role), he was just as much of a lapdog as he’d always forced her to be. It wasn’t an ideal situation but it was hard not to be amused at how she’d taken charge of the situation.

---

Now that you bring it up --It reminded me – that I have read in some “mano” blog/site – the recommendation to get a wife from submissive cultures.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

Now that you bring it up --It reminded me – that I have read in some “mano” blog/site – the recommendation to get a wife from submissive cultures.

Years ago I had a couple of those guys lecture me on why it was such an awesome thing for them to do and some of the ways they’ve taken advantage of the situation. I find it sickening. Very few of them refer to their wives as anything more than objects, and they all tend to deride and defame their wives’ cultures. I’ve heard them referred to as savages, imbeciles and worse. If everyone of the culture in question is a savage, what does that say about how they view their wives?

 

[Walking_Home]

Years ago I had a couple of those guys lecture me on why it was such an awesome thing for them to do and some of the ways they’ve taken advantage of the situation.** I find it sickening**. Very few of them refer to their wives as anything more than objects, and they all tend to deride and defame their wives’ cultures. I’ve heard them referred to as savages, imbeciles and worse. If everyone of the culture in question is a savage, what does that say about how they view their wives?

---

Yes — extremely sickening.

 

[D3USVult]

It doesn’t surprise me that this thread is a mile long considering the subject matter. In my opinion the Bible verses are pretty clear. Nonetheless, the idea that the man can and should have the final say within a marriage is absolutely repugnant to the overwhelming majority of women, even Catholic women. The impression that I got from reading the responses is that the “anti-submission” Catholics divide into two primary groups. Group #1 is misinterpreting the scripture passages to mean that a man has carte blanche to do whatever he wants. Group #2 is confusing the meaning of the word ‘submission.’

“Wives be submissive to your husbands” does not mean the husbands are free to behave like jerks or to treat their wives as anything less than human. What it means is that wives have a duty to treat their husbands with respect and deference.

In the dictionary ‘Submission’ is defined as “the action of accepting or yielding to the authority of another person.” Submission is not passively allowing oneself to be made into someone’s doormat. Rather it is an active choice to relinquish control out of love for the person to whom submission is given. Does such an act require some humility? Yes. The simplest answer I can give to any women who truly wants to know the meaning of Christian femininity, and is not just fishing for a biblical defense for feminism, is this: look at the Blessed Virgin. Mary’s response was "Behold the handmaid of the Lord ", and that is one of the reasons why we venerate her.

 

[Sarcelle]

Years ago I had a couple of those guys lecture me on why it was such an awesome thing for them to do and some of the ways they’ve taken advantage of the situation. I find it sickening. Very few of them refer to their wives as anything more than objects, and they all tend to deride and defame their wives’ cultures. I’ve heard them referred to as savages, imbeciles and worse. If everyone of the culture in question is a savage, what does that say about how they view their wives?

This is what I don’t get. Men who find foreign wives often complain about being mistreated by American women. In spite of that, they turn around and mistreat their foreign wives.

Now I know not all men who are married to foreign women are abusive. However, there seems to be a significant proportion of them.

I once heard a man complain about how the women in his country were too aggressive and did not know how to be feminine. You think the man was American? No, he wasn’t, he was Chinese. This was why he was looking for a foreign wife. Chinese women were too independent, too aggressive. Sound familiar?

 

[Sarcelle]

It doesn’t surprise me that this thread is a mile long considering the subject matter. In my opinion the Bible verses are pretty clear. Nonetheless, the idea that the man can and should have the final say within a marriage is absolutely repugnant to the overwhelming majority of women, even Catholic women. The impression that I got from reading the responses is that the “anti-submission” Catholics divide into two primary groups. Group #1 is misinterpreting the scripture passages to mean that a man has carte blanche to do whatever he wants. Group #2 is confusing the meaning of the word ‘submission.’

“Wives be submissive to your husbands” does not mean the husbands are free to behave like jerks or to treat their wives as anything less than human. What it means is that wives have a duty to treat their husbands with respect and deference.

In the dictionary ‘Submission’ is defined as “the action of accepting or yielding to the authority of another person.” Submission is not passively allowing oneself to be made into someone’s doormat. Rather it is an active choice to relinquish control out of love for the person to whom submission is given. Does such an act require some humility? Yes. The simplest answer I can give to any women who truly wants to know the meaning of Christian femininity, and is not just fishing for a biblical defense for feminism, is this: look at the Blessed Virgin. Mary’s response was "Behold the handmaid of the Lord ", and that is one of the reasons why we venerate her.

That’s one side of the equation.

How about telling men the same thing? That being the leader does not give men the license to mistreat their wives. There seem to be a lot men who do think that their wives are little more than appliances.