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Oneofthewomen
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No one asked you to embrace any form of spirituality which is not fitting for you
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Thank you, tpw, for this wonderful bit of wisdom!
]Thank you, tpw, for this wonderful bit of wisdom!
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dixieagle
Guest
I urge you not to bother with the Mark Shaw book; it is badly written and contains serious errors. My husband is a Merton scholar and quite active with the International Thomas Merton Society; Shaw is not taken seriously and is regarded as a sensationalist.Read his journals, read Mark Shaw’s “Under the Mask of Holiness”, read his biographers…
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Ahimsa
Guest
Merton is inspiring.
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Cephas1229
Guest
David-That sounds more like gossip then fact. Then, let’s pretend that he did sin…we as you know have something called Confession, which he went to frequently. We bother with Merton because the man was a spiritual genius that speaks to modern man. If you had read some of his stuff you wouldn’t have asked your last question.The mother of one of my best friends also helped care for Merton when he was in the hospital. He did a lot more than talk to the nurse with whom he was infatuated and, according to my friend’s mother at least, he was crassly open about it. I agree with those who advise to stay away from Merton. Why bother, with the writings of so many excellent saints to choose from?
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Cephas1229
Guest
After reading many posts here regarding Merton, I simply am dumbfounded as to why you consider his trying to understand Eastern Religions a negative. Jesus told us to evangelize the whole world. Merton had many friends in other parts of the world and discussed with them the similarities of the experience that they could share in the Contemplative tradition.
Many people from other religions now read Merton. I would like to think that that may be the first step for their conversion. If Merton didn’t reach out to them in love as he did, would you? Also, Centering Prayer was invented in the 1960’s by Pennington and Keating to try and use the tradition of Contemplation and to dissuade Catholics from going to Eastern Religions. I’ve read many books on Centering Prayer and find it not really to my liking. I much prefer the Jesus Prayer which has its foundation in Orthodox Catholic Spirituality.
Many people from other religions now read Merton. I would like to think that that may be the first step for their conversion. If Merton didn’t reach out to them in love as he did, would you? Also, Centering Prayer was invented in the 1960’s by Pennington and Keating to try and use the tradition of Contemplation and to dissuade Catholics from going to Eastern Religions. I’ve read many books on Centering Prayer and find it not really to my liking. I much prefer the Jesus Prayer which has its foundation in Orthodox Catholic Spirituality.
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30miller
Guest
Cephas-That sounds more like opinion then (sp) fact…certainly to this “modern man” - and I have read him.David-That sounds more like gossip then fact…We bother with Merton because the man was a spiritual genius that speaks to modern man…
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Cephas1229
Guest
30miller - I would prefer if you would not respond to any of my posts.Cephas-That sounds more like opinion then (sp) fact…certainly to this “modern man” - and I have read him.
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Cephas1229
Guest
30Miller-Nice to see you again. I have once again placed you on my ignore list.
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Brywan
Guest
Reminds me of a quote I once heard (sorry, don’t know the source) : “Christians are the only soldiers who shoot their own wounded.”What often bothers me about questions about Merton is the unforgiving and sanctimonious tones that surround the shortcomings of his life. If anything he teaches us that we can be forgiven. I don’t know about you, but I surely appreciate this!
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Cephas1229
Guest
You are absolutely right.Reminds me of a quote I once heard (sorry, don’t know the source) : “Christians are the only soldiers who shoot their own wounded.”
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JW55
Guest
Thomas Merton has had a great impact on many Catholics and non-Catholic alike. He was an incredible writer and poet. Unfortunately, he seems to have gone off the path in his later years along the lines of Bede Grifiths. It is such a shame because he was so gifted.
It would have been nice if he would have followed a more conservative traditional approach to his writings in later years. As I mentioned in an earlier post, if you want to red Merton, stick to his early writings. “No Man is an Island” and “New Seeds of Contemplation” were both excellent and inspring.
I think the Catholic world could use someone at this time, with his appeal who possesses those excellent writing and poetic skills, yet promotes a strong orthodox Catholic faith. I would love to find someone who was inspirational in the way he was, yet stays the path. Anyone out there know of any writers out there who are a candidate to fill that void?
It would have been nice if he would have followed a more conservative traditional approach to his writings in later years. As I mentioned in an earlier post, if you want to red Merton, stick to his early writings. “No Man is an Island” and “New Seeds of Contemplation” were both excellent and inspring.
I think the Catholic world could use someone at this time, with his appeal who possesses those excellent writing and poetic skills, yet promotes a strong orthodox Catholic faith. I would love to find someone who was inspirational in the way he was, yet stays the path. Anyone out there know of any writers out there who are a candidate to fill that void?
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Cephas1229
Guest
JW55
If Merton was not such an open book about his feelings and problems and wrote so openly about it you would know about them. Think about it. What current writer that you know openly discusses his most personal feelings, misgivings about himself etc. I think if all writers were that open and you held them to the standard that you’re asking of Merton, there would be very few left to read. Please let me know what you’ve read in his later years that you disagree with.
If Merton was not such an open book about his feelings and problems and wrote so openly about it you would know about them. Think about it. What current writer that you know openly discusses his most personal feelings, misgivings about himself etc. I think if all writers were that open and you held them to the standard that you’re asking of Merton, there would be very few left to read. Please let me know what you’ve read in his later years that you disagree with.
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Verbum_Caro
Guest
"brywan:
No sane soldier, Christian or otherwise, either follows another soldier into a minefield or stands next to a comrade contaminated by chemical weapons. Isn’t that the substance of the objection to Merton? Not that he was fallible, or a sinner, or “wounded” (we all are), but rather that following him too closely could “wound” others?
VC
On the contrary, I’m not sure it would apply in this case. Those objecting to Merton seem to be objecting to him either as someone to emulate, or object to some of his ideas as harmful or erroneous.Code:*reminds me of a quote i once heard (sorry, don't know the source) : "christians are the only soldiers who shoot their own wounded."*you are absolutely right.
No sane soldier, Christian or otherwise, either follows another soldier into a minefield or stands next to a comrade contaminated by chemical weapons. Isn’t that the substance of the objection to Merton? Not that he was fallible, or a sinner, or “wounded” (we all are), but rather that following him too closely could “wound” others?
VC
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30miller
Guest
Au contraire.If Merton was not such an open book about his feelings and problems and wrote so openly about it you would know about them. Think about it. What current writer that you know openly discusses his most personal feelings, misgivings about himself etc. I think if all writers were that open and you held them to the standard that you’re asking of Merton, there would be very few left to read…
An “open book” Merton is not. Where’s the “…wrote so openly…” disclosures concerning the most prominent of his myriad shortcomings. Concerning his illegitimate child in England that his handlers bought his way out of all we are told is that he looked for the child (only after told to do so by his abbot, supposedly) AFTER the war and somehow concluded that the child was killed in the bombing of London. That’s it. Wow - what scholarship! No name. No evidence. No nothing. Just a story. Where’s Cephas’s “…open book about this problem and associated feelings…”? Having relatives who lived in and through the bombing of London - relatives who have related to me personally of the London bombings - it’s hard to swallow the story. First off - the bombings were of London - not Cambridge. They are 60 miles apart. He fathered the child while supposedly at Cambridge. Why would the child with no name and no records be presumed to be in London - especially at a time that anyone and I mean anyone sent their dependents up-country AWAY from the bombings? My relatives were not people with money and they managed to do that. Why would someone from Cambridge flush with the Merton payoff money choose to situate themself and Merton’s child at ground zero. No open book on that issue, for sure. Next school reunion I go to - if I can’t find an old girlfriend - I guess I will just start the story that she must have been killed in the bombing of London.
Merton’s “calling” on Dec. 10, 1941. After countless years and thousands of days of his supposed “calling” - this man heads for the isolation and seclusion of a monastery in Kentucky at precisely the moment in time that every other male in the country was going in the other direction to respond to the Day of Infamy, Dec. 7, 1941. Seems too convenient. Once again - no open book on that issue. When my father went off to get shot liberating Merton’s homeland - in those 72 hours the “vocation” finally hits home for Merton and he gets a train ticket to Kentucky. Where’s Cephas’s “…wrote so openly…” evidence about this convenient (to say the least) timing.
Where’s Cephas’s “open book” on Merton being the only monk (albeit the monk with the substantial residuals arriving every month) demanding and getting private quarters for himself on the far end of the monastery grounds - where he had the privacy to conduct his love affair with the young nurse - younger than his own child, for that matter. Nope - no open book there.
We know more about what made Flip Wilson do questionable things - “The Devil Made Me Do It” - than we know about Merton’s major shortcomings. Merton would be more believable if he had used Flip’s excuse rather than the one we are told to swallow regarding Merton - "The Abbot Refused Him Permission to Address Them and, in fact, Had them removed from his writings. Right…
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Hopemercy
Guest
Interesting thread.
What most if not all fail to realise is that this man was a monk in an enclosed SILENT religious order.
Who was allowed, even encouraged to break all his Vows.
It is not a question of failings or faults, but of his lack of any authenticity as a Monk in that Order.
It was not a teaching order; SILENT.
He was vowed to that life; in that monastery.
The order should not have done anything but release him from his vows as he was not living them in any way.
They were in dire need of money which his books brought in.
He wrote also re being a hermit - but he never lived as one. It was all theory and poetic dreams; a poor source of inspiration.
NB a new book is out ; an account of his affair with a nurse. It was a love affair.
The only book of any sincerity is that first one, which isknown here as “Elected Silence” interestingly.
And he himself said that he would wish it unwritten.
At first his books appeal; then you see that it is so mannered and , ys, so self-centred and self obsessed that it becomes like candy floss ( fairy floss?) all sugar and no real nourishment.
Nothing to come near the teachings of Jesus…
And then the latter years; books full of buddhism and not Jesus…
Not a monk and in that last while, a dubious Christian… because he had reneged on his vows and not had the integrity to relinquish the status the title and habit gave him.
The telling thing is that he published under his secular name; we relinquish that name in our Solemn Profession.
What most if not all fail to realise is that this man was a monk in an enclosed SILENT religious order.
Who was allowed, even encouraged to break all his Vows.
It is not a question of failings or faults, but of his lack of any authenticity as a Monk in that Order.
It was not a teaching order; SILENT.
He was vowed to that life; in that monastery.
The order should not have done anything but release him from his vows as he was not living them in any way.
They were in dire need of money which his books brought in.
He wrote also re being a hermit - but he never lived as one. It was all theory and poetic dreams; a poor source of inspiration.
NB a new book is out ; an account of his affair with a nurse. It was a love affair.
The only book of any sincerity is that first one, which isknown here as “Elected Silence” interestingly.
And he himself said that he would wish it unwritten.
At first his books appeal; then you see that it is so mannered and , ys, so self-centred and self obsessed that it becomes like candy floss ( fairy floss?) all sugar and no real nourishment.
Nothing to come near the teachings of Jesus…
And then the latter years; books full of buddhism and not Jesus…
Not a monk and in that last while, a dubious Christian… because he had reneged on his vows and not had the integrity to relinquish the status the title and habit gave him.
The telling thing is that he published under his secular name; we relinquish that name in our Solemn Profession.
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Aquinas62
Guest
Having read the Seven Storey Mountain, but not too many of his other works. I found much to be gleaned from Fr Mertons writings. I am on the conservative side, so I took his opinions on issues of the day to be just that… opinions. As far as the state of the mans (Merton’s) soul… I leave that to God, and I trust in His mercy and judgement, which is perfect.
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Cephas1229
Guest
HopeMercy
I don’t even know where to begin. You are so wrong on so many counts, it’s hard for me to believe that you are even being serious. Let’s just start with one or two. Perhaps you can enlighten me. You wrote, “The order should not have done anything but release him from his vows as he was not living them in any way.” You know this…how?
You also wrote, “He wrote also re being a hermit - but he never lived as one.”
Perhaps you are not getting the proper information. There is a hermitage on the property at the monastery, built for him. Some of his writings were written there. There were very specific rules that he had to follow about his time there but he was a hermit. Albeit, part-time on occasion, but a hermit nonetheless.
I don’t even know where to begin. You are so wrong on so many counts, it’s hard for me to believe that you are even being serious. Let’s just start with one or two. Perhaps you can enlighten me. You wrote, “The order should not have done anything but release him from his vows as he was not living them in any way.” You know this…how?
You also wrote, “He wrote also re being a hermit - but he never lived as one.”
Perhaps you are not getting the proper information. There is a hermitage on the property at the monastery, built for him. Some of his writings were written there. There were very specific rules that he had to follow about his time there but he was a hermit. Albeit, part-time on occasion, but a hermit nonetheless.
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JW55
Guest
Hello Cephas-JW55
If Merton was not such an open book about his feelings and problems and wrote so openly about it you would know about them. Think about it. What current writer that you know openly discusses his most personal feelings, misgivings about himself etc. I think if all writers were that open and you held them to the standard that you’re asking of Merton, there would be very few left to read. Please let me know what you’ve read in his later years that you disagree with.
I have a limited amount of time this morning before heading to the office, so I may need to address this again later this evening, but I’ll try and give my impressions of Merton. I would start by asking you to read an earlier response of mine on this thread located at post #7, page #1.
As I indicated, i thought Merton’s early books were very Christ centered. His later works (to me) almost seemed more Buddhist in nature. Were they serving as a door to Christianity for the mystical seeker or a door away from it? It almost appeared that he was headed in the direction of an early day Eckhart Tolle or David Hawkins where one seeks “spirituality” as opposed to “Christianity”.
He seemed very intrigued with Buddhism. he had a very unique positon of being able to reach a group of people who were for a lack of a better term on the “edge” or those in the 50’s of the Beat generation and later the Hippie movement who were free thinkers lookng for something mystical that they couldn’t seem to find in conventional Christianity at the time, thus seeking retreat in the direction of religions of the east. Merton, early on , I feel was able to bridge that gap yet remain totally absorbed into Christ. He was a link for those folks to that element of the Christian faith. he was well read by that group. What good hippie of the late 60s or rearly 70’s didnt possess in their backpack a copy of one of Merton’s books or Kahlil Gibran or “The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance” and probably a copy of “Silent Spring” by Rachel Carlson thrown in for good measure.
My point is he had a opportunity to be a continuing catalyst for those folks to direct us backinto the Christian fold, but in the end he seemed to be heading in the direction of the “New Age” guru direction. Possibly had he lived longer, he would have come full circle. I would contrast him with someone like Seraphim Rose of the Eastern Orthodox faith who was early on inspired by Thomas Merton… Rose was very much a part of the “in” thinkers early in his life. However, by contrast Rose directed himself deeper into the Christan faith , yet maintained that “mystical edge”.
A couple of modern day writers I truely appreciate as Fr. Thomas Dubay and Fr. John Hardon. However, I do find Dubay a bit too complex at times. He and Hardon, however also lack the widespread appeal to the group of folks I have referenced earlier. I am at a loss to identify anyone who fills the void that Merton left. I feel his later writings were not in the same direction or context as his early ones. I wish they were. I also wish there were someone out there who had his Charisma, writing and poetic skills and that bridged that mystical gap of sometimes missing in Catholicism. There are a lot of good Catholic writers, but I think someone from that “niche” is presently missing.
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DavidPalm
Guest
Just so. St. Augustine was quite open about his own weaknesses and sins, as have been other saints. This isn’t about “shooting the wounded.” Those who admit, as he did, that they are indeed wounded and are in need of help are the very ones whom we emulate ourselves. What steered me away from Merton was that he seemed more like Luther than St. Augustine, flaunting his personal sin and veering dangerously, if not completely, away from the Catholic faith. Not worthy of emulation, IMO, especially when there are so many other trustworthy guides in the spiritual life.On the contrary, I’m not sure it would apply in this case. Those objecting to Merton seem to be objecting to him either as someone to emulate, or object to some of his ideas as harmful or erroneous.
No sane soldier, Christian or otherwise, either follows another soldier into a minefield or stands next to a comrade contaminated by chemical weapons. Isn’t that the substance of the objection to Merton? Not that he was fallible, or a sinner, or “wounded” (we all are), but rather that following him too closely could “wound” others?
VC
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30miller
Guest
Check out the photo of this “hermit’s” hermitage here - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Storey_Mountain…There is a hermitage on the property at the monastery, built for him. Some of his writings were written there. There were very specific rules that he had to follow about his time there but he was a hermit. Albeit, part-time on occasion, but a hermit nonetheless…You know this…how?
Nope - no “cell”, no cave, no seclusion. Note the 10 or more chairs in the photo on the deck. (When Thoreau lived his solitary life - he wrote that he needed only 2 chairs - one for himself and one for ONE guest. - I know, I know - they were put there AFTER he died. No source for that, as usual - just Mertonite talk - but this source describes it as Merton’s hermitage presented in this photo). This “hermitage” for ONE person (…“built for him”…) seems awful large for one “hermit”. Much nicer and larger than my house. Must have something to do with those special “rules” he supposedly lived by there. Right.
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