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Aquinas62
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wow… what did he ever do to you? your problems with Fr Merton go beyond just the critical, it seems to me.
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Cephas1229
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DavidPalm
Yes, St. Augustine was very open about his own weaknesses and sins, but most of those were in hindsight. The difference at least to me, is that Merton continued to be mindful of his continued weaknesses and wasn’t shy about hiding these. He is worthy of emulation just on that alone!
Yes, St. Augustine was very open about his own weaknesses and sins, but most of those were in hindsight. The difference at least to me, is that Merton continued to be mindful of his continued weaknesses and wasn’t shy about hiding these. He is worthy of emulation just on that alone!
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Cephas1229
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If you read all of 30miller’s posts you will find this type of writing. He can be very difficult to dialogue with, which is why I find myself putting him on my ignore list.wow… what did he ever do to you? your problems with Fr Merton go beyond just the critical, it seems to me.
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Cephas1229
Guest
Thank you JW55 for your thoughtful response. I would like to give you my thoughts and respond as soon as I am able. Unfortunately, this time of year is one of my busiest.
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30miller
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Thank you, Cephas, for your very personal ad hominem. Despite the fact that Catholic Answers prohibits this type of personal attack zealots such as yourself seem to get away with it. OK with me. I do consider it a badge of honor to endure such attacks. It does not go unnoticed that once again you fail to address any issue - e.g. the elaborate vacation getaway and courting retreat of Merton’s on the monastery grounds (laughingly termed by Mertonites a “hermitage”). To consider this monk a “hermit” is an insult to hermits. This magnificent style of living is what real hermits - the St. Anthony of the Desert Hermits - abandoned to become Hermits.If you read all of 30miller’s posts you will find this type of writing. He can be very difficult to dialogue with, which is why I find myself putting him on my ignore list.
Mertonites are the type to go out of their way to state unsolicited derogatory pledges such as on post #87 of this thread - “…30Miller-Nice to see you again. I have once again placed you on my ignore list…” - and then immediately break their pledge. Hmmm…no surprise that Merton is their hero.
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30miller
Guest
I have lived through the false but systematic and very successful destruction/deconstruction of the Catholic Church that has been done in the “spirit” of Vatican II (let me be clear - not the reality of the Council and it’s documents, but the so-called “spirit” of the hijackers of the Council) - acts that were perpetrated without hearing truthful voices of opposition. No internet then. Now I the opportunity to speak up when New Agers such as Merton (as called by Fr. Hardon, S.J. cited in an early post on this thread) are held up as Catholic Icons. I simply lay out all the pertinent facts that say that Merton and his ilk are not Catholic Icons. Mertonites jump in with ad hominems against those such as myself because they simply can’t explain away what I point out. There is no doubt that Merton is not and will never be a saint of the Catholic Church. Mertonites falsely want to give their one-sided presentations as if he is or will be. My simple message - seek truth and spirituality somewhere other than in the life and times of the media creation known as Thomas Merton.wow… what did he ever do to you? your problems with Fr Merton go beyond just the critical, it seems to me.
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Verbum_Caro
Guest
Wow. I didn’t read that link with Fr. Hardon talking about his contact with Merton until just now. That’s pretty strong stuff.New Agers such as Merton (as called by Fr. Hardon, S.J. cited in an early post on this thread) are held up as Catholic Icons.
I trust Fr. Hardon quite a bit, and he doesn’t seem the kind to make baseless accusations. I never knew he had anything to say about Merton until now.
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tpw
Guest
In the original draft of Seven Storey Mountain Merton revealed EVERYTHING about his past. His monastic censors removed about 1/3 of the original draft or of concern for scandalizing the faithful in 1947. Several other Merton biographers have stated this - the most recent is Mark Shaw in his 2009 book “Behind the Veil of Holiness” where Shaw discusses Merton’s life prior to entering the monastery including several of the points you’re alluded to.
Re: his entry into Gethsamane. Merton was prepared to enter the military, but vowed to do so only as a medical corpman. This was a matter of conscience for him which other people also made with even greater personal risk. You may know approve of what he did but it was a matter of conscience which one must respect.
Re: his entry into Gethsamane. Merton was prepared to enter the military, but vowed to do so only as a medical corpman. This was a matter of conscience for him which other people also made with even greater personal risk. You may know approve of what he did but it was a matter of conscience which one must respect.
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Cephas1229
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I thought that I would take a look at what Fr. Hardon had to say about Thomas Merton. Here are some quotes with my commentary.
Fr. Hardon: “I do believe (Merton) was never intellectually converted to Christianity.”
Really? His confessor thought so, many Catholics at Columbia thought so, including 2 professors who knew Merton well, the priest who instructed him thought so, the abbot at Gethsemani thought so as well. So, I would need a little more proof then this “I do believe.”
Fr. Hardon: “Thomas Merton had left the United States and he died suddenly in Asia by giving lectures on Oriental Mysticism.”
Really? Death by giving lectures on Oriental Mysticism??? Is that on the autopsy report?
Fr. Hardon: “Thomas Merton’s writings, his New Age writings, have been published after his death and without his Abbot’s permission. In fact, the manuscripts were given to a lay person who has been publishing his books ever since.”
*Really? Which New Age writings? Name a couple of books for me that are explicitly New Age. If some later books have been published without permission from the Abbott, why do they have them in Trappist Book Stores? Why do some of them have an Imprimatur? Who is this lay person that is doing this? *
Fr. Hardon:”A layman wrote a book on Thomas Merton - remember I mentioned Thomas Merton may be the founder of the New Age Movement, certainly in the Western world. He wrote a book, spent several years writing the book analyzing Thomas Merton’s thinking. And he said Thomas Merton never, never believed there was a God who was infinite. Never believed there was a God who was really distinct from the world that we say was created. Centering prayer is communication with the inner being who is the only real being who exists. If you think you are a distinct person, distinct from God, you do not understand centering prayer.”
A layman wrote a book on Thomas Merton?? Who is this layman? The same layman who is publishing Merton’s books behind the Abbot’s back? Which passages Fr. Hardon, caused this unnamed laymen to feel that Merton never, never believed there was a God who was infinite??….when I can find dozens of passages that say just the opposite! Furthermore, Merton never mentions Centering Prayer. He does speak about the Jesus Prayer both in books and in conferences that he gave. But the Jesus Prayer has been around for centuries.
Fr. Hardon: “I do believe (Merton) was never intellectually converted to Christianity.”
Really? His confessor thought so, many Catholics at Columbia thought so, including 2 professors who knew Merton well, the priest who instructed him thought so, the abbot at Gethsemani thought so as well. So, I would need a little more proof then this “I do believe.”
Fr. Hardon: “Thomas Merton had left the United States and he died suddenly in Asia by giving lectures on Oriental Mysticism.”
Really? Death by giving lectures on Oriental Mysticism??? Is that on the autopsy report?
Fr. Hardon: “Thomas Merton’s writings, his New Age writings, have been published after his death and without his Abbot’s permission. In fact, the manuscripts were given to a lay person who has been publishing his books ever since.”
*Really? Which New Age writings? Name a couple of books for me that are explicitly New Age. If some later books have been published without permission from the Abbott, why do they have them in Trappist Book Stores? Why do some of them have an Imprimatur? Who is this lay person that is doing this? *
Fr. Hardon:”A layman wrote a book on Thomas Merton - remember I mentioned Thomas Merton may be the founder of the New Age Movement, certainly in the Western world. He wrote a book, spent several years writing the book analyzing Thomas Merton’s thinking. And he said Thomas Merton never, never believed there was a God who was infinite. Never believed there was a God who was really distinct from the world that we say was created. Centering prayer is communication with the inner being who is the only real being who exists. If you think you are a distinct person, distinct from God, you do not understand centering prayer.”
A layman wrote a book on Thomas Merton?? Who is this layman? The same layman who is publishing Merton’s books behind the Abbot’s back? Which passages Fr. Hardon, caused this unnamed laymen to feel that Merton never, never believed there was a God who was infinite??….when I can find dozens of passages that say just the opposite! Furthermore, Merton never mentions Centering Prayer. He does speak about the Jesus Prayer both in books and in conferences that he gave. But the Jesus Prayer has been around for centuries.
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tpw
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Re: Merton and the woman with whom we bore a child in England…so it’s not at all possible that this woman moved from Cambridge to London after she became impregnated and where she and the child were later killed during the bombing raids? Why isn’t this possible? All you’re doing is arguing based on unsubstantiated suspicions and calling it “truth”.
You’re assuming that Merton was given permission to move to the Hermitage so he could court this young woman. Merton was given permission to move to the Hermitage in 1963 according to his journals. The affair took place in 1965 or 1966 during a particular period in his life marked by great suffering, distress and restlessness…And perhaps if any of us can claim with ABSOLUTE certainty that we would make good decisions in such a state please tell me.
There is utterly no evidence that he took her to his hermitage. His journals report that they spent time at a lake on the monastery property. He insisted that he never consumated this relationship…and unless you can actually PROVE otherwise - your claims remain unsubstantiated.
Unfortunately our more suspicious and sanctimonious brothers and sisters love to make unsubstantiated claims and accusations not even out of good faith, but with the intent to defame… And for what purpose?
You’re assuming that Merton was given permission to move to the Hermitage so he could court this young woman. Merton was given permission to move to the Hermitage in 1963 according to his journals. The affair took place in 1965 or 1966 during a particular period in his life marked by great suffering, distress and restlessness…And perhaps if any of us can claim with ABSOLUTE certainty that we would make good decisions in such a state please tell me.
There is utterly no evidence that he took her to his hermitage. His journals report that they spent time at a lake on the monastery property. He insisted that he never consumated this relationship…and unless you can actually PROVE otherwise - your claims remain unsubstantiated.
Unfortunately our more suspicious and sanctimonious brothers and sisters love to make unsubstantiated claims and accusations not even out of good faith, but with the intent to defame… And for what purpose?
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tpw
Guest
Why not take a look at the photograph and see when it was taken?
Merton had a great number of visitors including Bishop Sheen. Perhaps the abbot thought it would cause less disturbance in the monastery if Merton were given permission to meet these visitors away from the main buildings of the monastery. And the only way we’ll ever know that is if records are found which tell us the reasons Abbot Fox gave Merton permssion to live as a hermit.
Suspicious speculation creates nothing positive…
Merton had a great number of visitors including Bishop Sheen. Perhaps the abbot thought it would cause less disturbance in the monastery if Merton were given permission to meet these visitors away from the main buildings of the monastery. And the only way we’ll ever know that is if records are found which tell us the reasons Abbot Fox gave Merton permssion to live as a hermit.
Suspicious speculation creates nothing positive…
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tpw
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I agree with these comments. As I read the book I thought Shaw had an axe to grind. That doesn’t mean his scholarship (such as it is) doesn’t hold some truth…
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Cephas1229
Guest
I’ve heard much speculation about the “affair” and yet no one has provided proof. I’ve tried to find some evidence but nothing solid. Can someone do this? I would appreciate it.
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dixieagle
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This link takes you to a review of Shaw’s book by Jim Forest, who knew Merton and is a true Merton scholar:I agree with these comments. As I read the book I thought Shaw had an axe to grind. That doesn’t mean his scholarship (such as it is) doesn’t hold some truth…
amazon.com/review/RHANRW1FRIIHD/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#RHANRW1FRIIHD
The word “scholarship” simply doesn’t apply to Shaw’s work regarding Merton.
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dixieagle
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Here is a link to a review of Merton’s journal Learning to Love: Exploring Solitude and Freedom: amazon.com/review/R28OT0UVJCXIUB/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R28OT0UVJCXIUBI’ve heard much speculation about the “affair” and yet no one has provided proof. I’ve tried to find some evidence but nothing solid. Can someone do this? I would appreciate it.
The author is a former president of the International Thomas Merton Society, and knows what he’s talking about. He is also the director and archivist of Bellarmine University’s Thomas Merton Center.
I hope that this sends you in the right direction for the information you seek.
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Cephas1229
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dixieagle
Thank you so much for the link. I did not know that this journal was available for purchase. I guess I’ll have to order it because the reviewer uses soft language i.e. “affair” and leaves only an impression of what might have occurred. The word “affair” can mean so many different things, depending on the nuance. It could mean flirtations as well as a full sexual encounter and could also mean any public event. I guess that because I need to be sure, I was hoping that I would read something either way. It is a fact that Merton should not of course been involved in any relationship of that nature, but did it become more then a flirtation? Did he have sexual intercourse with M? I don’t know.
Thank you so much for the link. I did not know that this journal was available for purchase. I guess I’ll have to order it because the reviewer uses soft language i.e. “affair” and leaves only an impression of what might have occurred. The word “affair” can mean so many different things, depending on the nuance. It could mean flirtations as well as a full sexual encounter and could also mean any public event. I guess that because I need to be sure, I was hoping that I would read something either way. It is a fact that Merton should not of course been involved in any relationship of that nature, but did it become more then a flirtation? Did he have sexual intercourse with M? I don’t know.
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30miller
Guest
In the original draft of Seven Storey Mountain Merton revealed EVERYTHING about his past. His monastic censors removed about 1/3 of the original draft or of concern for scandalizing the faithful in 1947.
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30miller
Guest
Let’s see: Obama’s “confessor” (Jeremiah Wright) endorsed him, many "Katholics at Columbia endorsed him - including Harvard and Chicago professors who “knew him well” - yup, 55 million +/- all told not only endorsed him but voted him the most powerful person in the world. Can’t argue with that testimony, can you?I thought that I would take a look at what Fr. Hardon had to say about Thomas Merton. Here are some quotes with my commentary.
Fr. Hardon: “I do believe (Merton) was never intellectually converted to Christianity.”
Really? His confessor thought so, many Catholics at Columbia thought so, including 2 professors who knew Merton well, the priest who instructed him thought so, the abbot at Gethsemani thought so as well. So, I would need a little more proof then this “I do believe.”
No, the above quotes are just the musings of an anonymous blogger. I’ll stick with the opinion of the person who actually met Merton, spoke with him, and sized him up - the great Fr. Hardon.
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30miller
Guest
“…soft language…”, “…the word affair can mean so many different things…”, - gee, makes me wonder what the definition of “is” is (Bill Clinton’s musing under oath about whether oral sex is sex)?dixieagle
Thank you so much for the link. I did not know that this journal was available for purchase. I guess I’ll have to order it because the reviewer uses soft language i.e. “affair” and leaves only an impression of what might have occurred. The word “affair” can mean so many different things, depending on the nuance. It could mean flirtations as well as a full sexual encounter and could also mean any public event. I guess that because I need to be sure, I was hoping that I would read something either way. It is a fact that Merton should not of course been involved in any relationship of that nature, but did it become more then a flirtation? Did he have sexual intercourse with M? I don’t know.
No, on the one hand the Mertonites want to hold him up on the highest pinnacle of spiritual knowledge, intuition, etc - then he takes up with a 25 year old nurse, one younger than his own child. Quite the cerebral connection, I’m sure. No Mertonite evidence, no sweat. Take it on faith. Surely we have to put the word “affair” under an electron microscope for dissection and 50 more years of study before we can address that. It’s too “soft” a word for us to understand now. Surprising that the abbot didn’t smother this word with his censor-gun as well. This was an “affair of the mind” - yeah, that’s it, an affair of the mind.
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30miller
Guest
You hold this up to “prove” the fable that Merton’s child and the mother died in the London Bombings - the “possibility” that it could have occurred? Are you serious? I had many relatives (all originally from Ireland) in England and Scotland throughout the war - and if any had died in the London Bombings I could tell you the street it occurred on, the time of night, and whether they were in the parlor or the basement at the time. And I could name the family members who took care of their remains and their final resting place etc.Re: Merton and the woman with whom we bore a child in England…so it’s not at all possible that this woman moved from Cambridge to London after she became impregnated and where she and the child were later killed during the bombing raids? Why isn’t this possible?
Yet the Mertonites offer - nothing. The child is to be dismissed with no more than the idea that it might have happened. What absurdity. I can only hope that the Mertonites never get called for jury duty - if this is what constitutes “evidence” of death to them. God help us.
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