What do you think of Thomas Merton?

[30miller]

Interesting that there are no more posts. Is it remotely possible that one person’s consistent and unyielding negative opinion of Merton has thwarted dialogue? Pity. Merton enjoyed dialogue. That’s one thing you could have possibly learned from him.

A man who abandons his child and enjoys the fall foliage of Kentucky while said child is supposedly being bombed to smithereens in London is a man of no character. And a man of no character is a man of no character. I have to wonder if Rev. Jimmy Swagart and Rev. Jim Baker have benn given passes by you as well. Baker especially did touch millions (and it actually was millions) of people in positive ways, if one chooses to simply accentuate the positive and ignore the negative.
So much for the ignore list, eh? Nothing but vitriol instead.

 

[Cephas1229]

30miller
I’m sure that what you’ve been writing is edifying, uplifting and totally balanced. Perhaps I’m even losing out on your insights and rapier wit. But…I doubt it.

 

[djeter]

30miller
I’m sure that what you’ve been writing is edifying, uplifting and totally balanced. Perhaps I’m even losing out on your insights and rapier wit. But…I doubt it.

Actually 30Miller’s central point is that “A man who abandons his child and enjoys the fall foliage of Kentucky while said child is supposedly being bombed to smithereens in London is a man of no character. And a man of no character is a man of no character.”

From that flows a non-sequitor that people of no character are, ipso facto, no talent people and by attempting to posit such for them exposes the admirer as a deluded fool or worse.

As some have pointed out here, Merton was a sinner and far from Saintly. Yet they choose to learn from him, thereby showing that, at least on Earth anyway, that character and talent have no correlation whatsoever, Mr. 30 Miller’s protestations to the contrary.

“What do you think of Thomas Merton?” would seem to suggest a variety of contributions and pleasant exchanges, not one man batting each positive response silly because of an indefensible line of reasoning. Time to retire 30Miller.

dj

 

[Ahimsa]

Merton is da bomb, fo shizzle.

 

[Cephas1229]

“From that flows a non-sequitor that people of no character are, ipso facto, no talent people and by attempting to posit such for them exposes the admirer as a deluded fool or worse.”

So for you, someone whom you judge to have no character (apparently by your infallible standards) does not have any talent (some people in Hollywood might disagree with you).

So if a person had some talent, and then does something that proves to you that they have no character, they magically lose their talent.

Talk about “an indefensible line of reasoning?!”

 

[djeter]

“From that flows a non-sequitor that people of no character are, ipso facto, no talent people and by attempting to posit such for them exposes the admirer as a deluded fool or worse.”

So for you, someone whom you judge to have no character (apparently by your infallible standards) does not have any talent (some people in Hollywood might disagree with you).

So if a person had some talent, and then does something that proves to you that they have no character, they magically lose their talent.

Talk about “an indefensible line of reasoning?!”

I was illustrating 30Miller’s line of reasoning, not my own.

dj

 

[Oneofthewomen]

A man who abandons his child and enjoys the fall foliage of Kentucky while said child is supposedly being bombed to smithereens in London is a man of no character. And a man of no character is a man of no character. I have to wonder if Rev. Jimmy Swagart and Rev. Jim Baker have benn given passes by you as well. Baker especially did touch millions (and it actually was millions) of people in positive ways, if one chooses to simply accentuate the positive and ignore the negative.
So much for the ignore list, eh? Nothing but vitriol instead.

As I have said before, you obviously have an axe to grind regarding Merton.

As far as character goes, do you know anything about St. Ignatius of Loyola?

I wrote a paper about him for a spirituality class a couple of years ago.

He was not a nice guy!

He was a gambler, drunkard, ladies man- generally what a girl from my generation would call a “Dawg”!

However, having spent months recovering from wounds inflicted by canon fire, he finally had a conversion expereince and dedicated himself to God.

Think where the Church would be today, had it not been for St. Ignatius.

Now, before you go off the deep end, I am in no way saying that Merton should be (or is) a saint, all I am saying is that if we judge everyone by every bad choice that they ever made, we would never have anyone to look up to!

Was Merton perfect?
No!!

Is any other human?
ummm, I haven’t found one yet!

Can we learn from someone like Merton?
Absolutely!!

Thomas Merton is just one of many great spiritual writers, that span the ages of Christianity. Regardless of his personal life, if his books help to bring even one person back to the Church (which in my case, was how it happened), then the will of God has been done!!

 

[Cephas1229]

dj
“I was illustrating 30Miller’s line of reasoning, not my own.”

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[30miller]

I was illustrating 30Miller’s line of reasoning, not my own.
dj

No, Mr. Jeter, you were NOT illustrating “30Miller’s line of reasoning” in any way. Cephas is exactly on target with his observations about your post.
I’m puzzled as to what happened to your “genteel” approach to “dialoging” (sp?) with others - guess that only applies to Mertonites. All you had to do was ask me if I thought Merton was without any talent and I most certainly would have responded in the negative to that question. (I’m one of the few on this thread who actually answers direct questions directly). I think it’s probably impossible for a man to end up in the position that the Mertonites currently place this man in and at the same time for him to have had “no talent”. I stand with my kindred spirit on this point (Cephas). Let Jeter speak Jeter’s thoughts and let 30Miller speak 30Miller’s. Dialoging (sp?) works a lot better that way.
I’ve never said Merton had “no talents” - just as I never have and would never say that Obama has “no talents”. Just as I would never would say that Father Marcial Maciel Degollado had “no talents”. Your “illustration” of my “line of reasoning” is completely incorrect, off the mark, wrong, etc.

 

[30miller]

30miller
I’m sure that what you’ve been writing is edifying, uplifting and totally balanced. Perhaps I’m even losing out on your insights and rapier wit.

Thanks, Cephas - that’s very kind of you.

 

[anode]

A man who abandons his child and enjoys the fall foliage of Kentucky while said child is supposedly being bombed to smithereens in London is a man of no character. And a man of no character is a man of no character. I have to wonder if Rev. Jimmy Swagart and Rev. Jim Baker have been given passes by you as well. Baker especially did touch millions (and it actually was millions) of people in positive ways, if one chooses to simply accentuate the positive and ignore the negative.
So much for the ignore list, eh? Nothing but vitriol instead.

I also have trouble ignoring the details of Merton’s life. To appreciate Merton, one has to ignore what people are and do versus what they write. When Merton was in college, financed by his father’s estate, he impregnated a young woman, outraged his conservators, who were meting out money to him. They arranged to have her supported, and basically told Merton to leave Britain. He did so, went to Columbia, had a personal crisis and converted. His lover and his child remained in London where they were killed in the London blitz. Why the conservators didn’t get them out of London to the countryside, as so many others managed to do, is a mystery to me. Merton doesn’t appear to have been involved at all with them at this point. Later in WWII his brother was killed, which did deeply affect him.

He eventually became a Trappist ( he had entered during or before the war)-- and a best-selling author. The money went to his monastery. He was ordained, but he became very restless and unhappy with the regimentation and unending ceremonies and prayers, which included long litanies, (which were trimmed substantially after Vat II). He wanted to become a hermit, and flirted with becoming a Carthusian .He became a real thorn in the side of his abbot. Eventually a new abbot was elected who understood him better and arranged for him to become a semi-hermit, but was required to say his office and celebrate Mass–how much of this he actually did I do not know. He became a lot happier. Through all of this he continued to write. He was a brilliant man, mastered several languages, was a scholar, etc.–he was not limited at all in his correspondence or access to documents. He became interested in the events leading up to the dropping of the atomic bombs, wrote on this, and became interested in eastern religions.

Late in his life he was again in the hospital–he suffered from ill-health throughout–and developed a violent crush on a 18 year old nurse. He thought of leaving the order, marrying her, etc. and once again gave his abbot a lot of grief. Eventually he was permitted to travel to the far east, lecture on monasticism, east and west, and was accidentally electrocuted.

His monastery never initiated any efforts towards his being declared ‘venerable’ or any other step towards canonization. He clearly was not a saint. But he had a fine mind, was an excellent writer, and apparently benefited a lot of his readers, both then and now.

I have trouble getting past his destructive sexuality and instability, which indirectly, through his and his conservators’ neglect, led to the death of two people, one his child, and may also have corrupted a young and probably quite bewildered young woman.

 

[30miller]

As I have said before, you obviously have an axe to grind regarding Merton.

Could you please offer some examples of whatever this “axe” comment could possibly mean. The only thing that comes to mind is that I am in reality the child that none of you will acknowledge actually survived my mythical death in the bombing of London and I am bent on my “father’s” destruction.

As far as character goes, do you know anything about St. Ignatius of Loyola?
I wrote a paper about him for a spirituality class a couple of years ago.
He was not a nice guy!
He was a gambler, drunkard, ladies man- generally what a girl from my generation would call a “Dawg”!
However, having spent months recovering from wounds inflicted by canon fire, he finally had a conversion expereince and dedicated himself to God.
Think where the Church would be today, had it not been for St. Ignatius

.
Yes, I do.
Regarding Ignatius I agree 100% with your comments.

Now, before you go off the deep end

Absolutely no need for this commentary (other than that it more aptly describes the following turn your very own thoughts take).

I am in no way saying that Merton should be (or is) a saint, all I am saying is that if we judge everyone by every bad choice that they ever made, we would never have anyone to look up to!
Was Merton perfect?
No!!
Is any other human?
ummm, I haven’t found one yet!
Can we learn from someone like Merton?
Absolutely!!

Now, here’s where we significantly depart ways. You have just introduced St. Ignatius of Loyola (out of thin air) to the Merton discussion and then juxtaposed him next to Merton. Then you somewhat put them on equal footing with comparable lists of negatives (sins, shortcomings, etc.). Then you correctly say that all people are sinners (at least you haven’t found a perfect one yet). Then you say that we can “Absolutely” learn from someone like Merton - (a statement that could be said about virtually anybody just as the Legionnaires “Absolutely” believe they have “learned” great things from Father Marcial Maciel Degollado).
You have done exactly what most Mertonites do - you CHOOSE a great saint (Ignatius) and in the short span of 3 or 4 sentences (which each, standing on their own, are in the main not unreasonable observations) - intentionally “linking” Merton to him (with undeniable observations that both sinned) - CLEARLY elevating the level which Merton is to be thought of (as saints are thought of, as this approach is the drumbeat of Mertonites - only difference you have done from other Mertonites is use Ignatius of Loyola instead of Augustine). Then - once the only two images you have placed in our minds are in place - Ignatius and Merton - you throw in the disclaimer “I am in no way saying that Merton should be (or is) a saint…”. Not only does this type of presentation suffer serious logical flaws but it presents no intellectual integrity.

Thomas Merton is just one of many great spiritual writers, that span the ages of Christianity. Regardless of his personal life, if his books help to bring even one person back to the Church (which in my case, was how it happened), then the will of God has been done!!

No, Merton has always been correctly placed in the bookstores in the New Age section. That’s where I discovered him back in the day beside Watts, Krishnamurti, etc. Merton’s trajectory (and personal life, sad to say of which you seem to find irrelevant to the man himself) was New Age - not Christian.

 

[30miller]

I also have trouble ignoring the details of Merton’s life. To appreciate Merton, one has to ignore what people are and do versus what they write. When Merton was in college, financed by his father’s estate, he impregnated a young woman, outraged his conservators, who were meting out money to him. They arranged to have her supported, and basically told Merton to leave Britain. He did so, went to Columbia, had a personal crisis and converted. His lover and his child remained in London where they were killed in the London blitz. Why the conservators didn’t get them out of London to the countryside, as so many others managed to do, is a mystery to me. Merton doesn’t appear to have been involved at all with them at this point. Later in WWII his brother was killed, which did deeply affect him.

He eventually became a Trappist ( he had entered during or before the war)-- and a best-selling author. The money went to his monastery. He was ordained, but he became very restless and unhappy with the regimentation and unending ceremonies and prayers, which included long litanies, (which were trimmed substantially after Vat II). He wanted to become a hermit, and flirted with becoming a Carthusian .He became a real thorn in the side of his abbot. Eventually a new abbot was elected who understood him better and arranged for him to become a semi-hermit, but was required to say his office and celebrate Mass–how much of this he actually did I do not know. He became a lot happier. Through all of this he continued to write. He was a brilliant man, mastered several languages, was a scholar, etc.–he was not limited at all in his correspondence or access to documents. He became interested in the events leading up to the dropping of the atomic bombs, wrote on this, and became interested in eastern religions.

Late in his life he was again in the hospital–he suffered from ill-health throughout–and developed a violent crush on a 18 year old nurse. He thought of leaving the order, marrying her, etc. and once again gave his abbot a lot of grief. Eventually he was permitted to travel to the far east, lecture on monasticism, east and west, and was accidentally electrocuted.

His monastery never initiated any efforts towards his being declared ‘venerable’ or any other step towards canonization. He clearly was not a saint. But he had a fine mind, was an excellent writer, and apparently benefited a lot of his readers, both then and now.

I have trouble getting past his destructive sexuality and instability, which indirectly, through his and his conservators’ neglect, led to the death of two people, one his child, and may also have corrupted a young and probably quite bewildered young woman.

Anode, perhaps you can help. What was the name of Merton’s child and what proof is available that might affirm the “child died in the London bombing” story? If there is no name and no proof available - why not - (this isn’t a supposed death that occurred in ancient Crete or somewhere - Brits know who died in the bombing of London)? And if did indeed happen - who were those “in the know” who confirmed this story (but who have for some inexplicable reason agreed to the secrecy)? Your observation “Why the conservators didn’t get them out of London to the countryside, as so many others managed to do, is a mystery to me…” is a mystery to me as well and if the child and mother are dead, why the unnecessary secrecy? (It’s somewhat similar to the unnecessary secrecy involving Obama’s U.S. citizenship by birth. It puzzles me why Obama wouldn’t simply release a real birth certificate (unlike the faulty one that was eventually leaked) and end that discussion and the demonization of the “birthers” as has occurred. It’s simply unreasonable to the sound mind why I had to present a real birth certificate for a passport to visit Europe for a week (I couldn’t bring in a copy of a newspaper that stated my birth) - and he doesn’t have to (nor is he simply willing to offer to) to become the most powerful man on the planet). It’s puzzling to me why this mother’s and child’s supposed deaths are the only such story I’ve encountered regarding “no facts or details available” deaths during the bombing of London.

 

[ChadS]

The thing about St. Ignatius of Loyola is that while he may have had his share of sins and shortcomings and some of those seem comparable to Merton, Ignatius managed to control and I suppose somewhat master his baser instincts once he had his conversion experience. Merton, though, risked bringing scandal upon his monastery by pursuing his relationship with the nurse not only in town but on monastery grounds. As much as I enjoy Merton’s writings and gained much from his earlier writings this is a fairly serious shortcoming as a religious and needs to be considered as part of his character, especially when talk of canonization comes around.

One thing definitely looked for is if the person lived a life of exemplary virtue (especially one can argue as a priest and after a significant conversion experience). Sadly on this he seems to fail.

ChadS

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Could you please offer some examples of whatever this “axe” comment could possibly mean. The only thing that comes to mind is that I am in reality the child that none of you will acknowledge actually survived my mythical death in the bombing of London and I am bent on my “father’s” destruction. I do not deny that Meton may have had a child and that he did not act in a way befitting anyone who is a parent. But again, I do not know all of the details, and it is not my job to judge
Yes, I do.
Regarding Ignatius I agree 100% with your comments.

Absolutely no need for this commentary (other than that it more aptly describes the following turn your very own thoughts take).

Now, here’s where we significantly depart ways. You have just introduced St. Ignatius of Loyola (out of thin air) to the Merton discussion and then juxtaposed him next to Merton. Then you somewhat put them on equal footing with comparable lists of negatives (sins, shortcomings, etc.).Sorry, I only mentioned St. Ignatius because I am very into Ignatian spirituality and he is the one saint that I know enough about to make comments regarding his life. I in no way ment to put them on them on same footing! Then you correctly say that all people are sinners (at least you haven’t found a perfect one yet). Then you say that we can “Absolutely” learn from someone like Merton - (a statement that could be said about virtually anybody just as the Legionnaires “Absolutely” believe they have “learned” great things from Father Marcial Maciel Degollado).
You have done exactly what most Mertonites do - you CHOOSE a great saint (Ignatius) and in the short span of 3 or 4 sentences (which each, standing on their own, are in the main not unreasonable observations) - intentionally “linking” Merton to him (with undeniable observations that both sinned) - CLEARLY elevating the level which Merton is to be thought of (as saints are thought of, as this approach is the drumbeat of Mertonites - only difference you have done from other Mertonites is use Ignatius of Loyola instead of Augustine). Then - once the only two images you have placed in our minds are in place - Ignatius and Merton - you throw in the disclaimer “I am in no way saying that Merton should be (or is) a saint…”. Not only does this type of presentation suffer serious logical flaws but it presents no intellectual integrity.Thank you for calling my intellect into question! I did not think that this thread was about logic or intellect, I thought it was about what we think about Thomas Merton. I am sorry that you find nothing good about him, that is your perrogative. Please do not disrespect (“Mertonite”- please, that is crazy, I am no more a “Mertonite” than I am a Jesuit!!) those of us who have gleaned some good out of his troubled past.

No, Merton has always been correctly placed in the bookstores in the New Age section. That’s where I discovered him back in the day beside Watts, Krishnamurti, etc. Merton’s trajectory (and personal life, sad to say of which you seem to find irrelevant to the man himself, (not irrelevant, just not the only thing. I made a lot of mistakes when I was in my late teens and early twenties. I am very glad that the people that know me now, and know of my checkered past do not feel that because of my past,everything I have done since is worthless) was New Age - not Christian.

 

[Lujack]

Just to take the quote you mention - (and I must tell you that I always read for content and not simply for flourish) - my absolute first thought was what’s “dangerous” about October? That’s a meaningless “observation”. So I disregard that word and am left with October is a fine season. duhhhhhhhhhh. Pretty pedestrian observation to me. My next thought was what’s the great distinction between red and crimson - if that’s supposed to be language that sweeps me away, it doesn’t. Many elementary school children could come up with a better description of the fall foliage color extravaganza than that. Finally, if there is a season when people lose their lassitudes of the previous months - and are full of ambition - that season is without a doubt Spring. I struggle to think of not just myself - but others I know starting projects in October. So, once again - duhhhhhhh.

Let me defend this sentence by Merton a little bit. Let’s start with the actual sentence:

October is a fine and dangerous season in America. It is dry and cool and the land is wild with red and gold and crimson, and all the lassitudes of August have seeped out of your blood, and you are full of ambition. It is a wonderful time to begin anything at all.

You asked “What’s dangerous about October?” Merton answers that question in the rest of the passage-“you are are full of ambition…It is a wonderful time to begin anything at all”. October is both fine and dangerous for that very reason; ambition is both fine and dangerous, for it can produce both good and bad. You’re right, that particular phrase is meaningless…unless you take it in the context of the passage, where “ambition” and “October” are intertwined.

Next, you say that the choice of crimson is meaningless…but it isn’t. There is a significant difference between crimson and red. Bricks are red, but I’ve never seen a crimson brick. Banners, though-they can be crimson. Finishing with crimson helps build up to the point about ambition.

Finally, we differ on the idea that October is not a season for “shaking off lassitudes”; have you ever breathed in the crisp October air? Walked outside on a chilly October morning and wanted to do something? And that “shaking off lassitudes” is different than the shaking off lassitudes that comes in the spring. Merton, I assume, wrote this particular passage in Kentucky, where the late summer heat is particularly oppressive. August is a time of lazing about, especially in the dog days of summer in the south, but when the heat fades and the chill comes in…then its time to get serious.

There’s real content to that passage, and I’m sure it goes further; its just a snippet out of the book, but it sure is an evocative snippet. It does require thought, though.

 

[anode]

Anode, perhaps you can help. What was the name of Merton’s child and what proof is available that might affirm the “child died in the London bombing” story? If there is no name and no proof available - why not - (this isn’t a supposed death that occurred in ancient Crete or somewhere - Brits know who died in the bombing of London)? And if did indeed happen - who were those “in the know” who confirmed this story (but who have for some inexplicable reason agreed to the secrecy)? Your observation “Why the conservators didn’t get them out of London to the countryside, as so many others managed to do, is a mystery to me…” is a mystery to me as well and if the child and mother are dead, why the unnecessary secrecy? (It’s somewhat similar to the unnecessary secrecy involving Obama’s U.S. citizenship by birth. It puzzles me why Obama wouldn’t simply release a real birth certificate (unlike the faulty one that was eventually leaked) and end that discussion and the demonization of the “birthers” as has occurred. It’s simply unreasonable to the sound mind why I had to present a real birth certificate for a passport to visit Europe for a week (I couldn’t bring in a copy of a newspaper that stated my birth) - and he doesn’t have to (nor is he simply willing to offer to) to become the most powerful man on the planet). It’s puzzling to me why this mother’s and child’s supposed deaths are the only such story I’ve encountered regarding “no facts or details available” deaths during the bombing of London.

First, re Obama, he* did* offer his birth certificate, which for some reason the ‘birthers’ won’t accept. A columnist whose daughters were delivered at the same hospital by the same obstetrician compared the syntax and statements on both sets of certificates of birth and found them to be exactly matching name of hospital, name of doctor, address of parents . His dgtrs were born within 4 yrs of Obama. The Republicans would have vetted Obama for this from the beginning. I think that the ‘birthers’ are nuts. Sorry.

Now, re Merton and the burned up baby. This is from Michael Mott’s “The Seven Mountains of Thomas Merton”, an authorized bio which was apparently well-researched. But he did take over from the original biographer, who became ill (this from Amazon.com reviews). I have not dug up the original documents. I understand from this long book that Merton included the story of the baby–or at least the pregnancy-in his original manuscript of “Seven Storey Mountain”, but it was censored by his abbot-which would have included all subsequent references to mother and child. The baby would have the mother’s maiden name. This is all I know.

However, the fact of the pregnancy is in accord with Merton’s subsequent behavior. I don’t think that it is appropriate at all to compare Loyola with Merton–Loyola had a conversion of manners, Merton didn’t. I think that Merton was a brilliant, complex, restless and somewhat unhappy individual who led a very unusual life as a monk–gobs of correspondence, friends, free access to any document/source he wanted, apparent freedom from manual chores, etc after his novitiate, and eventual semi-hermitdom, except for his vast correspondence, visitors, etc.–remember much of this was before Vat II. He was able to do his own cooking and in many pix wasn’t even wearing a habit. He had a sort of epiphany while visiting the great reclining Buddha(s) in Ceylon-that-was ( Sri Lanka) and, still in the glow of this experience–died while giving lectures to monastics in 1968–perhaps it’s just as well, I have no doubt that he would have finally left Gethsemani and the Trappists, and been “on leave” from then on out. On reason Gethsemani was so reluctant to lose him and let him have many privileges which* other Trappist monks* certainly didn’t have, is that the monastery made a great deal of money off his books. Many of them but especially the first one were best-sellers and still sell well.

 

[30miller]

First, re Obama, he* did* offer his birth certificate, which for some reason the ‘birthers’ won’t accept. A columnist whose daughters were delivered at the same hospital by the same obstetrician compared the syntax and statements on both sets of certificates of birth and found them to be exactly matching name of hospital, name of doctor, address of parents . His dgtrs were born within 4 yrs of Obama. The Republicans would have vetted Obama for this from the beginning. I think that the ‘birthers’ are nuts. Sorry.

I don’t know what you mean by saying “Obama “offered” his birth certificate and the “birthers” won’t accept”. Obama can’t make an “offer” to a “group” that doesn’t formally exist anywhere - so there was nowhere to mail or email such an “offer”. All he could do is have a CERTIFIED birth certificate (just like I had to get for my passport) RELEASED TO THE MEDIA. That was never done. The leaked “birth certificate” extant has been credibly proven NOT to be a CERTIFIED birth certificate. And the government doesn’t accept a “print type” analyst’s (columnist or any other) opinions in lieu of a CERTIFIED birth certificate. I’ve just spent more time writing this than it would take to delegate someone to release the proper document. (And saved the millions - and it actually has been millions - spent already in the three main lawsuits and associated court costs challenging Obama’s citizenship). (And for your edification - I emphasize CERTIFIED because of the extra time and effort the government put me to to get one when they wouldn’t accept a photocopy of a CERTIFIED birth certificate). So, we certainly differ on that issue.
And you need to read the link given on Mr. Jeter’s post #151 for example if you think Obama was “vetted” by anyone at all. Bristol Palin’s teenage love child was vetted more during that campaign.

Now, re Merton and the burned up baby.

That’s unnecessarily crude.

This is from Michael Mott’s “The Seven Mountains of Thomas Merton”, an authorized bio which was apparently well-researched. But he did take over from the original biographer, who became ill (this from Amazon.com reviews).** I have not dug up the original documents.** I understand from this long book that Merton included the story of the baby–or at least the pregnancy-in his original manuscript of “Seven Storey Mountain”, but it was censored by his abbot-which would have included all subsequent references to mother and child. The baby would have the mother’s maiden name. **This is all I know. **

“Apparent” to who? “Amazon.com book reviews” is now considered source material? The “original documents” you mention are what I am asking about - thank you for saying that you know nothing about them. If “all you know” is that the “baby would have the mother’s maiden name” - then you seem to know as much as me or anyone else I have ever asked this question of. The only difference with me is that I then don’t simply swallow the story whole cloth.

However, the fact of the pregnancy is in accord with Merton’s subsequent behavior. I don’t think that it is appropriate at all to compare Loyola with Merton–Loyola had a conversion of manners, Merton didn’t. I think that Merton was a brilliant, complex, restless and somewhat unhappy individual who led a very unusual life as a monk–gobs of correspondence, friends, free access to any document/source he wanted, apparent freedom from manual chores, etc after his novitiate, and eventual semi-hermitdom, except for his vast correspondence, visitors, etc.–remember much of this was before Vat II. He was able to do his own cooking and in many pix wasn’t even wearing a habit. He had a sort of epiphany while visiting the great reclining Buddha(s) in Ceylon-that-was ( Sri Lanka) and, still in the glow of this experience–died while giving lectures to monastics in 1968–perhaps it’s just as well, I have no doubt that he would have finally left Gethsemani and the Trappists, and been “on leave” from then on out. On reason Gethsemani was so reluctant to lose him and let him have many privileges which* other Trappist monks* certainly didn’t have, is that the monastery made a great deal of money off his books. Many of them but especially the first one were best-sellers and still sell well.

Much of what you say here is well said. But, for example, I don’t know how you can have “no doubt” that he would have left the Trappists if he had lived longer.

 

[30miller]

You asked “What’s dangerous about October?” Merton answers that question in the rest of the passage-“you are are full of ambition…It is a wonderful time to begin anything at all”. October is both fine and dangerous for that very reason; ambition is both fine and dangerous, for it can produce both good and bad. You’re right, that particular phrase is meaningless…unless you take it in the context of the passage, where “ambition” and “October” are intertwined.
Next, you say that the choice of crimson is meaningless…but it isn’t. There is a significant difference between crimson and red. Bricks are red, but I’ve never seen a crimson brick. Banners, though-they can be crimson. Finishing with crimson helps build up to the point about ambition.
Finally, we differ on the idea that October is not a season for “shaking off lassitudes”; have you ever breathed in the crisp October air? Walked outside on a chilly October morning and wanted to do something? And that “shaking off lassitudes” is different than the shaking off lassitudes that comes in the spring. Merton, I assume, wrote this particular passage in Kentucky, where the late summer heat is particularly oppressive. August is a time of lazing about, especially in the dog days of summer in the south, but when the heat fades and the chill comes in…then its time to get serious.

There’s real content to that passage, and I’m sure it goes further; its just a snippet out of the book, but it sure is an evocative snippet. It does require thought, though.

What you present is a very personalized interpretation which you and possibly some others subscribe to. Great for you. However, your interpretations come more from yourself than from the words. If anything, crimson and red are the colors of martyrs, of wars, symbolizing violence - not “ambition”. Your take doesn’t factor that in anywhere. There is no such singularly definable color as “brick red” as you state. Simply call any print ink supplier (as they are masters in the field of colors) and try to get them to send you a can of “brick red” ink. Can’t be done. You would need to select from a color palate of probably no less than 30 or 40 “reds” as you call them. Try Kohl & Madden, if you like.
Though your “explanation” of “ambitious” and “dangerous” might work for you, it falls flat on my ears. In the language of Seasons - Spring is still the undeniable season of ambition to me. And having indeed breathed the “crisp October air”, I have never thought of it as “dangerous” - I have never thought of the possibility of poison gas in the air either, I guess. Perhaps all readers should spend a “lazy” August and “ambitious” October in Kentucky - then these words might mean to them what you suggest. In the meantime, I’ll stick with the Eskimos - we don’t relate. No matter how much “thought it does require” to arrive at your interpretation.

 

[30miller]

Oneofthewomen:
Originally Posted by 30miller
Could you please offer some examples of whatever this “axe” comment could possibly mean.

Your response - nothing.

I do not deny that Meton may have had a child and that he did not act in a way befitting anyone who is a parent. But again, I do not know all of the details, and it is not my job to judge

That’s fine. But abstain regarding his “greatness” as well, then.

Sorry, I only mentioned St. Ignatius because I am very into Ignatian spirituality and he is the one saint that I know enough about to make comments regarding his life. I in no way ment to put them on them on same footing!

Apology accepted. I suggest you add a few more saints to your quiver to refrain from having to offer up Ignatius in response to any need for comparative commentary.

Thank you for calling my intellect into question! I did not think that this thread was about logic or intellect,

You are welcome. All threads are about logic and intellect. As the great popes have said - Faith and Reason go hand-in-hand. Fides et Ratio. Please keep that in mind for all your future posts.

I thought it was about what we think about Thomas Merton. I am sorry that you find nothing good about him, that is your perrogative. Please do not disrespect (“Mertonite”- please, that is crazy, I am no more a “Mertonite” than I am a Jesuit!!) those of us who have gleaned some good out of his troubled past.

Then please present your thoughts as such - “some good from a troubled man” - That would be great. I have no problem with that at all. Only problem is that the Mertonites always seem to present the “some good” part and skip the “trouble man” part - leaving it to me to fill in the rest to forewarn the uninitiated. When the Mertonites are intellectually honest enough to present the whole picture of Merton themselves - my job will be done here. (And BTW, I don’t “find nothing good” about anybody, let alone Merton. I have absolutely no idea how he fared at his particular judgement and I wish him well. I do not possess the powers of some of the other posters here who “know he would have left the Trappists” had he lived. You are very unfair in your accusations. Why not simply ask me if I think a certain way instead of incorrectly stating that I do. Makes for much better “dialogue” as some of the other Mertonites like to say).

(Merton’ personal life)… not irrelevant, just not the only thing. I made a lot of mistakes when I was in my late teens and early twenties. I am very glad that the people that know me now, and know of my checkered past do not feel that because of my past,everything I have done since is worthless

This is flawed logic. Just because you made “mistakes” - that is no reason to throw the mantle of blanket amnesty over all others including Merton. Just as you are possibly now deserving the good regard of others you know because of the good choices you made since your bad ones in your teens and twenties - so too we hold Augustine and Ignatius and many others in similar high regard. Our Church has recognized by sainthood their true transformations. Merton’s “transformation”, if indeed there ever was one, has been shown to be true by no one on this thread or anywhere else. I wish it had been. I’d love to jump on board of the bandwagon of a deserving Catholic leader.