What do you think scripture says about Mary?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lisa4Catholics
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Solo Christo:
Again she is not His mother. Do not capitalize mother when you say it. Do not give Mary a divine title. I never said you worship her; all I said and I will say it again is: If you see Mary as anything more then a servant of God you idolize her and have committed a sin. Mary was a humble servant of God. How God puts Mary is below the apostles, because she never wrote an inspired book or letter. There is a bigger chance of Paul or Matthew or any other NT writer to have been taken away in a chariot then Mary.
Click to expand...
My question now is how many times does the phrase “Blessed Virgin Mother”, “Our Blessed Mother”, or “Blessed Virgin” come up in Scripture? (referring to anyone besides the earthly mother of Christ) In capital form I mean. I frankly do not remember a single instant where she is said to be the “Blessed Virgin Mother” of all man.

I have no idea what you mean by “divine title”. Mary is not divine.

Luke 1:31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.

That sounds a lot like motherhood to me. If Mary is not the mother of Jesus then perhaps you can explain where Jesus got his human nature from.

Luke 1:26-30 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary. And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.” But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

How many other servants of God were spoken to in this manner? How many other servants of God were asked to bring our salvation into the world? How can a woman conceive a child and not be his/her mother? Even ducks know who their mother is and they hatch from eggs!

Luke 1:41-43 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Luke 1:48-49 For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

I think the verses cited above should explain where “Blessed Mother”, Blessed Virgin" and “Blessed Virgin Mother” come from. It is also evident that God Himself has honored Mary.

Idolize? That’s crazy… We **honor **Mary the Virgin Mother of God, the Apostles, the Saints and all those who have done Gods will throughout the ages. Honor is not worship. Honor is not adoration. Get a dictionary and look 'em up.

Catholics and others can see the Glory of God made manifest in those He has called to do His Will. We worship and adore God because He called them and we honor them because the did His will.

It is a greater sin to keep the Word of God bound, gagged and stuffed between pages in a book than active in your thoughts, alive in your heart, and spoken with your lips.
 
40.png
BibleReader:
Thank you, Church Militant.
Click to expand...
You’re very welcome. I like the way you caught all this from the OT as well. There’s just so much more to thsi and all of Christianity than most people realize, isn’t there? To me, catholicism is the only one that even attempts to embrace the many faceted diamond that is our faith. Thanks be to God that I’m Catholic!
Pax vobiscum,
 
Church Militant:
You’re very welcome. I like the way you caught all this from the OT as well. There’s just so much more to thsi and all of Christianity than most people realize, isn’t there? To me, catholicism is the only one that even attempts to embrace the many faceted diamond that is our faith. Thanks be to God that I’m Catholic!
Pax vobiscum,
Click to expand...
:amen:
 
I am done debating for now. Mostly the reason I quit is because I did not present a solid argument from the beginning and you keep finding loopholes to get out of.

I have grown to really respect some people like Pax, Church Militant, and Malachi4U even though I do not agree with them on dozens of issues. I still respect them; they know Scripture and they know history.

As for the rest of you who I did not name; I do not mean to offend you but you are all ignorant followers of men. Some of you have said some of the sadist things I have heard from a person who calls themselves a follower of Christ. I have debated with so many different kinds of people who believe some crazy things, but I have never heard so much heresy and so many ignorant comments as those made by some of you.

Study the Scriptures and don’t study people or church fathers. Scripture is the only absolute and all truth comes from it. No mans words can add or take away from it. If you believe mans word over the Word of God you are ignorant.

Now concluding I would like to say that I will return if God permits. I will write an article about how Mary was conceived; with no loopholes. Then I will only ask for certain people to reply because I am sick of ignorant outburst of people who do not know Scripture but only know tradition.

May God bless you all.

Your brother in Christ Jesus not Mary,

Solo Christo a.k.a. YuRa

Soli Deo Gloria!
 
Pax one more thing,

You wrote:
Something else you might be interested in thinking about. In the NT the terms “sanctification” and “justification” are both used in the past, present, and the future tenses as they pertain to Christians. I can give the scriptural verses that demonstrate this if necessary.
Click to expand...
I have a reference to were all the terms of sanctification were used both in the New and Old Covenants, and I already understand the argument that is developing lol. The sanctification I was referring too is the process that happens throughout life and ends right after or during our death, but I do not want to debate this at least not now.

I have noticed in a lot of denominations or sects of believers that they have a different meaning to sanctification and justification then the Calvinists do.

Let’s leave this debate for another time Pax lol.

Peace and God blessings my brother,

Solo Christo
 
Ahhh one more thing lol.

Can someone give me a link to the belief statement of this forum which talks about Mary being immaculately conceived. Thanks.
 
Solo Christo:
I am done debating for now. Mostly the reason I quit is because I did not present a solid argument from the beginning and you keep finding loopholes to get out of.

I have grown to really respect some people like Pax, Church Militant, and Malachi4U even though I do not agree with them on dozens of issues. I still respect them; they know Scripture and they know history.

As for the rest of you who I did not name; I do not mean to offend you but you are all ignorant followers of men. Some of you have said some of the sadist things I have heard from a person who calls themselves a follower of Christ. I have debated with so many different kinds of people who believe some crazy things, but I have never heard so much heresy and so many ignorant comments as those made by some of you.

Study the Scriptures and don’t study people or church fathers. Scripture is the only absolute and all truth comes from it. No mans words can add or take away from it. If you believe mans word over the Word of God you are ignorant.

Now concluding I would like to say that I will return if God permits. I will write an article about how Mary was conceived; with no loopholes. Then I will only ask for certain people to reply because I am sick of ignorant outburst of people who do not know Scripture but only know tradition.

May God bless you all.

Your brother in Christ Jesus not Mary,

Solo Christo a.k.a. YuRa

Soli Deo Gloria!
Click to expand...
Go ahead and say it;) You mistook my prayers for the Holy Spirit as an insult which it was not.All things aside,I was a PROTESTANT AND I KNOW SCRIPTURE:) I also, know I am in the Church Jesus started,the Holy Spirit protects and our teachings are from Jesus:) He set up His Authority on earth,and I will obey proper Authority set up by Jesus rather than self appointed authority on earth(little popes).God Bless You too,and I mean that:)
 
Lisa I love you. You absolutely ROCK!
May the Lord bless you and keep you. May he make his face to shine upon you and may He grant you peace.
Your friend in Christ,
 
Church Militant:
Lisa I love you. You absolutely ROCK!
May the Lord bless you and keep you. May he make his face to shine upon you and may He grant you peace.
Your friend in Christ,
Click to expand...
Michael,I love you too:) You too ROCK!👍 We have a precious gifts that God left us and one of the biggest one is the Church who protects us from errors in faith.The Church brings our Lord to us in the most Glorious way this side of Heaven,the Holy Eucharist.He has given us all His Mother,who prays for us and tells us do whatever He tells you.Thankyou God for your generosity with us poor unworthy sinners:gopray:
 
40.png
Malachi4U:
The only word I can find that describes the utter disrespect shown to Blessed Mary the mother of God on this thread by some, is, well - “protestant”.😦

Blessed Mary said yes, she was the ark that carried our Messiah, she was chosen by God amongst all women, she raised our Lord, she was favored by God. She commanded Jesus to perform His first miracle and He obeyed her by making wine. Scripture says she shall be called Blessed by all generations. Her name is in Sacred Scripture ours is not. Who are we to belittle His mother?

Pray to Blessed Mary or don’t. Honor her or don’t. Venerate her or don’t. Thank her for her sacrifice or don’t. But please don’t drag her good name through the mud to discredit the Church her Son established in 33 A.D.

Go in Gods peace,
Click to expand...
Very well said!!! 👍 You expressed what I was thinking perfectly (and much better than I could have said it!)
 
Lisa,

I am not mad at you, and I knew what you meant by your prayer offering. I just wanted to show you how you misrepresented yourself in your words and it sounded like a total insult. I know what you meant by it, but I still disagree with the issue at hand.

Lisa and all of you always remember if we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

God’s blessings…
 
Solo Christo:
Lisa,

I am not mad at you, and I knew what you meant by your prayer offering. I just wanted to show you how you misrepresented yourself in your words and it sounded like a total insult. I know what you meant by it, but I still disagree with the issue at hand.

Lisa and all of you always remember if we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

God’s blessings…
Click to expand...
We are a Church of sinners,I don’t ever remember saying I wasn’t a sinner:confused: If I did I was dead wrong.God Bless
 
lol.

I never said that you (Lisa) claimed to have never sinned or anyone else on this forum.
 
Solo Christo:
lol.

I never said that you (Lisa) claimed to have never sinned or anyone else on this forum.
Click to expand...
The last sentence seems to imply that we or somebody said it.In fact if you ever attend a Catholic service called the Mass,we all admit it together.It is a beautiful prayer I will share it with you some time when you get a little better understanding about what we believe and why we believe it.🙂 God Bless
 
Ok, hello everyone, I’m new to this site and this is my first posting. I’m NOT a Catholic, but I am interested in this whole debate about whether Mary sinned or not.

Here’s my take on it, with NO bias from Churches, only from the Holy Bible.

If the main founding for the theory of a sinless Mary was an assumption based on the phraseology of the angel Gabriel’s greeting to her before her Holy conception, with no other reference in the entire New Testament to her being free from sin, then why has it become a foundation of the Catholic church to revere her? Surely, when it all comes down to the tense of the greeting, given in an ancient language, there is room for misinterpretation on such a small point? And if it is so important a topic, then wouldn’t we have been given more proof of such a bold and fundamentally important concept, if it were true? Surely, the entirety of the New Testament was regarding the coming of God’s gift of salvation, Jesus, on His teachings, His promises, and interpretation thereof, with no importance whatsoever placed on Mary, except briefly as an instrument of God (like Abraham’s wife Sarah)?

In contrast, there are countless references to Jesus’ sinless life. Which is understandable, considering that He was one with God, who is, by nature, sinless. “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

I think it’s blasphemous to consider Mary to be the “New Eve”, comparing her to Jesus Himself (God) as the “New Adam” (or the Son of Man, with reference to Old Testament prophecy). Surely, all prophecy was in anticipation of the coming of Jesus, and God’s plan of our salvation through Him, not of the coming of a “sinless woman” who was to be revered?

“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)

In my understanding, either “all have sinned”, or “not all have sinned.” Only one can be true. With reference to the pit metaphor, I feel the argument is not about whether we have fallen into a pit and have been rescued either when we hit the bottom or before we hit it; it’s based on the fact that we are all prone to falling into the pit in the first place because of the common law of sin (gravity, in this example)… In this metaphor, only God (Jesus) is not affected by this law, and is therefore incapable of falling into the pit. Even someone who is nowhere near the pit (i.e., a newborn baby or a mentally challenged person) would fall in if near the pit, being still affected by the same natural laws (due to our sinful nature, or “original sin” as Catholics refer to it), and it is this sinful nature that labels us as “sinners”, not whether or to what extent we have consciously sinned. This would clearly label Mary as a sinner, and unworthy of reverence except as an instrument of God- just like many others, both in the Bible and outwith!

See Romans:

“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL men, because ALL sinned”… (5:12)

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for ALL men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. (5:18)

The Bible is about JESUS, God’s gracious gift to us all. If this is up for debate, then I believe we are questioning the very purpose of the Bible and God’s divine will for us.

Paul (A Christian)
 
Solo Christo:
Again she is not His mother. Do not capitalize mother when you say it. Do not give Mary a divine title. I never said you worship her; all I said and I will say it again is: If you see Mary as anything more then a servant of God you idolize her and have committed a sin. Mary was a humble servant of God. How God puts Mary is below the apostles, because she never wrote an inspired book or letter. There is a bigger chance of Paul or Matthew or any other NT writer to have been taken away in a chariot then Mary.

My question now is how many times does the phrase “Blessed Virgin Mother”, “Our Blessed Mother”, or “Blessed Virgin” come up in Scripture? (referring to anyone besides the earthly mother of Christ) In capital form I mean. I frankly do not remember a single instant where she is said to be the “Blessed Virgin Mother” of all man.
Click to expand...
hello Solo Christo,

The bible reveals Mary clearly as a woman the will be called blessed forever. Scripture reveals her as the Mother of God, unless Jesus was part this and part that He had a mother and to deny that she is the Mother of God is to deny Jesus is God. Which maybe you do. Scripture reveals her sinless.

I think you are under the misconception that everything that scripture reveals it reveals by describing it or mentioning it in words. This simply isn’t so. The more sublime a reality is the more access and power it has to enfluence creation. The Sacred Scriptures are sublime. Much of what it contains, the most poweerfull and enfluential realities aren’t explicitely described within the text. To hold your faith bound to the surface of scripture is ok now since the Church teaches us. But if you wish to know the depths of what they reveal you have to be able to allow all things be possible otherwise we limit what it means to whatever level we have limited it’s possibilities.

As for who Mary is I’ll give you an example of a teaching that you take for granted that Jesus couldn’t have taught if Mary had sin.

Could Jesus have said in absolute terms that only a good tree can produce good fruit if His Mother wasn’t sinless? Wouldn’t He have to qualify the statement? The most powerfull realities are the most sublime as well. Paul said be as shrewd as serpents but as harmless as doves. What those with ears hear that those without can’t is not what the words describe on the surface but what wasn’t said. When John sent disciples to ask Jesus if He was the one or do we wait for another Jesus said tell John that the blind see the lame walk.
 
40.png
drpaul:
Ok, hello everyone, I’m new to this site and this is my first posting. I’m NOT a Catholic, but I am interested in this whole debate about whether Mary sinned or not.

Here’s my take on it, with NO bias from Churches, only from the Holy Bible.

If the main founding for the theory of a sinless Mary was an assumption based on the phraseology of the angel Gabriel’s greeting to her before her Holy conception, with no other reference in the entire New Testament to her being free from sin, then why has it become a foundation of the Catholic church to revere her? Surely, when it all comes down to the tense of the greeting, given in an ancient language, there is room for misinterpretation on such a small point? And if it is so important a topic, then wouldn’t we have been given more proof of such a bold and fundamentally important concept, if it were true? Surely, the entirety of the New Testament was regarding the coming of God’s gift of salvation, Jesus, on His teachings, His promises, and interpretation thereof, with no importance whatsoever placed on Mary, except briefly as an instrument of God (like Abraham’s wife Sarah)?

In contrast, there are countless references to Jesus’ sinless life. Which is understandable, considering that He was one with God, who is, by nature, sinless. “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

I think it’s blasphemous to consider Mary to be the “New Eve”, comparing her to Jesus Himself (God) as the “New Adam” (or the Son of Man, with reference to Old Testament prophecy). Surely, all prophecy was in anticipation of the coming of Jesus, and God’s plan of our salvation through Him, not of the coming of a “sinless woman” who was to be revered?

“If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8)

In my understanding, either “all have sinned”, or “not all have sinned.” Only one can be true. With reference to the pit metaphor, I feel the argument is not about whether we have fallen into a pit and have been rescued either when we hit the bottom or before we hit it; it’s based on the fact that we are all prone to falling into the pit in the first place because of the common law of sin (gravity, in this example)… In this metaphor, only God (Jesus) is not affected by this law, and is therefore incapable of falling into the pit. Even someone who is nowhere near the pit (i.e., a newborn baby or a mentally challenged person) would fall in if near the pit, being still affected by the same natural laws (due to our sinful nature, or “original sin” as Catholics refer to it), and it is this sinful nature that labels us as “sinners”, not whether or to what extent we have consciously sinned. This would clearly label Mary as a sinner, and unworthy of reverence except as an instrument of God- just like many others, both in the Bible and outwith!

See Romans:

“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to ALL men, because ALL sinned”… (5:12)

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for ALL men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. (5:18)

The Bible is about JESUS, God’s gracious gift to us all. If this is up for debate, then I believe we are questioning the very purpose of the Bible and God’s divine will for us.

Paul (A Christian)
Click to expand...
Mary and the gifts she was given is all about Jesus,the saints are not saints without Jesus.When you honor Mary you fulfill Biblical prophecy and give Glory to the Holy Trinity for God to do great things with a mortal,by His gifts not Mary’s or any other Saint.Look beyond bias and see with spiritual eyes and you can see that you never have to spurn gifts in order to thank the giver of all gifts.God Bless
 
40.png
Lisa4Catholics:
Mary and the gifts she was given is all about Jesus,the saints are not saints without Jesus.When you honor Mary you fulfill Biblical prophecy and give Glory to the Holy Trinity for God to do great things with a mortal,by His gifts not Mary’s or any other Saint.Look beyond bias and see with spiritual eyes and you can see that you never have to spurn gifts in order to thank the giver of all gifts.God Bless
Click to expand...
Dear Lisa,

Thank you for your reply. I think it’s wonderful that so many people are searching earnestly for the truth. I believe Jesus’ teaching that those who seek, find.

I find it interesting to read the posts (of which, I admit, I’ve not gotten through all yet. Have you seen how many posts there have been in 2 weeks???) There are a lot of good points, but there’s also a lot of rubbish, and a few comments which I find, quite frankly, to be unbefitting of a Christian! I hope we’re all keeping in mind what this is all about: becoming the righteousness of God.

“But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.” (Matt 6:33).

Seeking JESUS first will certainly help us to see all other issues in the correct light, no matter how large or small we perceive them to be!

I’m a relatively new Christian (about 3 years now.) Some may say that this makes me inexperienced, but others may say that it helps me to be less biased by the church, or by various dogmas that seem to be rampant in ALL “denominations”. I hope that the latter is true to an extent. There is a problem with “denominationalism” (i.e., Catholics vs. Protestants, etc.):

“Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: ‘Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall.’” (Luke 11:17)

As Christians, we all really should be uniting on what we have in common, and getting out there in the world to bring the good news to other folk!

If we are all CHRISTIANS (i.e., believers in Christ as God’s son, in his death and resurrection on the 3rd day, and in his place at God’s right hand in the kingdom of heaven), then surely CHRIST is at the centre of it all.

I’m not against praising God for His other precious gifts: and thanks be to Him for the gift of my own life, to be sure, and those of the prophets, apostles, and all others used as instruments of His divine will to bring us to an understanding and a belief in Him, including Mary the mother of Jesus. But as a Christian, I will praise God for His precious gifts, not Mary, and I will not worship Mary, pray to Mary, or call on her name when the Son of Man comes down on the clouds on that glorious day in the future! Surely, it will be Jesus, the Christ.

(disclaimer: I’m not saying that anyone else believes this, but just trying to point out that maybe focusing on God and His son, our saviour Jesus Christ and how he died and rose again are perhaps more important than debating who was Jesus’ earthly mother and how did she live or die.)

If we are going to quote angels, I feel we’ve exhausted one topic thoroughly: Gabriel’s brief greeting to Mary. How about these?

"Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peach to men on whom his favour rests.” (Luke 2:13-14)

Praising God, not the Trinity. Glory to God, not the Trinity. What IS the Trinity, anyway? Please don’t answer that, because there are as many explanations for that as there are people, it seems. Mary, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, our Personal Counsellor, our conscience, the Holy Ghost, the resurrected spirit of Jesus, etc, etc. Pick and mix. At the end of the day, the Trinity is never mentioned in Holy scripture, more than likely because referring to Himself in that way didn’t appear to be important to God. And if that’s good enough for God, it’s good enough for me, too! Surely, He had more important things to tell us through His inspired word. In order for us all to stop being divided against ourselves, why don’t we focus on the important points, and let God work out the finer details?

After all, how will we EVER know the truth? How arrogant is it of any of us to claim to know more of God’s divine will than another? That’s like saying I know 3 grains of sand on the Costa del Sol compared to your 2. Isn’t it easier to appreciate the beach, and praise God for His gift?

Lisa, I hope I wasn’t speaking with any bias, but of course we’re all biased, whether we know it or not. Perhaps we just all need to humble ourselves to the Lord, accepting how little we know and asking for His help to understand, to love, and to accept the truth, which is Jesus.

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

Paul
 
Dear all,

If you would like to pray with me, please join me.

Dear Lord our God,
Praise be to you for your free gift of the water of life. Please bless us all and help us to come to a more complete understanding of your will through your inspired word, and through sharing our knowledge and understanding with each other. We are your flock, your little lambs with such a naiivete of your world and your divine will. Please put your hand on us and give us wisdom and guidance, and above all, please give us the peace that you offered us, the peace that transcends all of our understanding, because we understand so little. Lord, please help us to be content with what little we can understand right now, and keep our eyes fixed on the goal: on your glorious kingdom in heaven, and on your great commandment to love each other as you have loved us. What a command! As sinful humans, we all feel times of weakness when love is the hardest thing to do. Please, Lord God, give us strength to love each other, and to love you, with all of our heart, and all of our soul, and with all of our mind. Thank you so much for loving each and every one of us, even though we constantly sin. And thank you for the people contributing to this website, and for those who keep it running. May it continue to serve its purpose to praise you and help to bring others to a further understanding of your love for us, so that we may better serve you.
With love and thanks, through your son and gift Jesus Christ, our saviour,
Amen.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top