What do you think the state of the Church would be if there was no Second Vatican Council?

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There have been some 20 major councils in the history of the Catholic Church. All debating relevant questions for their time whether it was following the Jewish laws or the Divinity of Christ. Does the Church still exist after all those bishops and popes have said their thing and even misbehaved badly towards one another? Yes. The Church doesn’t live completely separated from the worlds political decisions isolated on an island in “the sea of never having outside visitors”.
 
Without the council, I would have looked for most changes to be made anyway. St. John Paul would have issued is catechism. The vernacular would be the primary language of the Mass. Many of the re-formulations of doctrines would have come in encyclicals instead.
I largely agree, except St John Paul would never have become Pope. Nor Francis. The reform of the liturgy and sacraments would have been impeded significantly, which may have affected how much they changed and how quickly they were accepted.

Most of the changes may have happened, but I am not sure “the new Pentecost” called for in the official prayer would have come.
 
Heres one thing I don’t like which Orthodox and even Anglicans still have. Instead of calling it Ordinary Time I wish we’d go back to weeks after Epiphany or Pentecost etc. I feel like calling it Ordinary Time is just to dull. There is no ordinary time in the Church.
Yes! I have a traditional calendar hanging in my home. This Sunday is the 18th Sunday after Pentecost. 🙂
 
What then is your theory of the recent upsurge of youth being attracted to the EF?
I personally think that the upsurge is related to the veracity in which the EF is promoted by its fans more than an attraction… it seems more like an indoctrination.
 
An additional point I would like to make is that Vatican II itself is out of date—not those points of perennial teaching that are never out of date, but its pastoral outlook and approach (its predominate concern) which was geared to certain circumstances which are now radically different (“pastoral” ultimately means applying the faith to concrete circumstances).

St. John XXIII in his opening speech orients the Council’s approach in light of certain circumstances. For example, he says “the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians…is presumed to be well known and familiar to all.” This presumption is no longer valid.

Likewise, with regard to the errors in the world, he says
But all such error is so manifestly contrary to rightness and goodness, and produces such fatal results, that our contemporaries show every inclination to condemn it of their own accord—especially that way of life which repudiates God and His law, and which places excessive confidence in technical progress and an exclusively material prosperity. It is more and more widely understood that personal dignity and true self-realization are of vital importance and worth every effort to achieve. More important still, experience has at long last taught men that physical violence, armed might, and political domination are no help at all in providing a happy solution to the serious problems which affect them.
Again, this is no longer the case at all.

This contingent nature of the Council’s decisions are noted by the Council itself in its acts, and in the explanations of the relators to the bishops. For example, Gaudium et spes, in its first footnote, says:
Some elements have a permanent value; others, only a transitory one…Interpreters must bear in mind—especially in part two—the changeable circumstances which the subject matter, by its very nature, involves.
Things have changed radically in the modern world since 1965.

In the context of explaining Dignitatis Humanae to the voting Fathers, the relator, Bishop de Smedt, said the following:
Our decree, since it is pastoral, tries to treat the present matter especially from the practical point of view and, after the manner of John XXIII…The question is put therefore regarding real man in his real dealings with other men, in contemporary human and civil societies.

But I beseech you, Venerable Fathers, not to force the text to speak outside of its historical and doctrinal context, not, in other words, to make the fish swim out of water.

Let our document be studied as it stands. It is not a dogmatic treatise, but a pastoral decree directed to men of our time.
My point is simply that much of what was decided at Vatican II has become outdated and irrelevant (often only a few years after). What is needed is not therefore a faithful implementation of it—that time has passed (except for those points of immutable truth it teaches), but its whole pastoral approach and analysis of the circumstances of the world needs to be re-evaluated (also considering its failure, as I noted document by document earlier in the thread).
 
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Just curious on how you think the Church would look. Would it be in worse shape or better? Just hypothetically speaking.
One has to put Vatican II in the context of what was happening in the world post WWII, with the dawn of the mass media and the influence of Hollywood and Rock ‘n Roll and the spirit of rebellion and disinformation that has been conquering the minds of the masses since then. Many of the same priests and nuns that were in the Church prior to Vatican II were the same ones that got caught up in the times and rebelled against the Church. Here is Pope Benedict XVI explaining what he called the “false Vatican II”

 
Heres one thing I don’t like which Orthodox and even Anglicans still have. Instead of calling it Ordinary Time I wish we’d go back to weeks after Epiphany or Pentecost etc. I feel like calling it Ordinary Time is just to dull. There is no ordinary time in the Church.
“Ordinary” just means ordered. That is why there is an ordinary of the Mass. The weeks that are counted in order are ordinary time. There is nothing dull about things being ordered.
 
If you want the world to be a better place, imagine there were no World Wars, maybe? Even if you do, we’re still living in a vale of tears, friends.

You can imagine what might have happened had the whole world heeded the warnings of Fatima back in 1917, but it won’t turn the clock back. It is 100 years later, and we have to play the hand we’ve been dealt.

If the Lord hasn’t returned by then, what are Catholics of 2118 going to wish we had been doing now? That’s what we need to concern ourselves with, not what Catholics or the Vatican ought to have been doing in 1918 or 1958 or some other year…
 
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To be fair, the Church has been really devastated since the Council
The Council was called in the wake of the devastation from WW2. I picture The Bicycle Thief with its depictions of the bombed buildings and economic devastation of Italy. Real recovery was just beginning in the 60’s.

That recovery in Europe included foreign powers retreating from Africa and the Middle East. The Church, spurred by the Council, advocated enculturation rather then the ideological imperialism the Soviet Union pushed.

The rebuilding process that began wih the Council was not flawless, but it should survive those nostalgic for the halcyon days of WW2. The world has changed and so has the Church, and new ways to express the Gospel should address new situations.
 
It’s a different kind of devastation. As St. Bernard applied the prophecy of Isaiah to the Church of his time “In peace is my bitterness most bitter.” The Church emerged from World War II stronger and more proven and respected than ever, as Ratzinger notes in his book “Milestones.”

In fact, that is the theme for John XXIII’s opening speech–there were no real problems that needed to be addressed–no article of faith was in question and in general, most societies were in agreement with the Church on important points. He even reproved the “prophets of doom” who warned otherwise.

The Church was making great progress (see this statistical summary from 1959 of what the Church did during the prior 20 years).

All that changed after Vatican II. Look at all the changes and confusion in the Church after Vatican II. Look at statistics since. Again, it’s not unreasonable to wonder if Vatican II had something to do with it.
 
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Vatican II brought the focus more towards Jesus Christ than the devions and some devotions were based on flawed history where the saint never existed. St Christopher was one of those who never existed.

Today, there is less emphasis on the devotions as a religious practice and more on contemplation which is where true faith grows from.

We never heard the word “Contemplation,” when I was in Catholic School before Vatican II.

There are people falling into the trap of devotion as a religious practice rather than as a means of growing toward union with Christ.

Even St John of the Cross wrote on how detachment from even religious things is needed, so that the true Christ can become more present in the person. Transforming Grace from Jesus Christ is the only way an individual will grow toward union with God.

Jim
 
Vatican II as a whole didn’t declare anything de fide. Therefore, the Council is solely pastoral (confirmed by Pope Paul VI himself) and therefore is temporary.

You’re opening a can of worms, OP. Obviously certain groups of Catholics are going to say that Vatican II was great and some that it essentially destroyed the Church as we knew it.
 
I’m not sure about what your asking, but I don’t recall Psalm 42 or the so-called last Gospel being read, so I can’t say why or if they were repressed.

I remember when they started the change to the so-called New Mass and when we went to Mass on Sunday’s, there was a woman who helped the congregation through the responses and singing the hymns, which were never done by the people in the TLM.

Older people like my parents, had a little hard time getting use to it as they were content to just sit and watch the priest and altar boys during the Mass. In fact, when they started using lay people as EMHC’s, the priests had to correct older people who were literally going out of their way to avoid receiving from them and from the priest only.

Before Vatican II, active participation by the people was abstract at best.

Jim
 
Vatican II was a great council for us Eastern Catholics. I think it was also a great council for the Latin rite, just not implemented correctly.

ZP
 
Could you show me where Vatican II does this? In a quick search, the only references I find to devotions are positive. The only references I find encouraging contemplation are with regard to priests and religious (where it was well known before Vatican II).

To be fair, I’ve also never personally heard contemplation mentioned in my whole life after the Council–I have read a lot of pre- and and a few post-concilliar sources talk about it though (I don’t really see any increase between pre- and post-concilliar writers though; it seems a pretty steady tradition).
 
I don’t see an issue with avoiding EMHC’s. I myself only receive from the priest.
 
Vatican II brought the focus more towards Jesus Christ than the devions and some devotions were based on flawed history where the saint never existed. St Christopher was one of those who never existed.
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Saint Christopher, pray for us!
 
The beginning of Mass always included the Psalm 42 verse, and the last Gospel was always said right after the dismissal which is normally John:1, 1-14. Following that are the Leonine Prayers also known as Prayes after Mass.
Inter Oecumenici which came into effect did away with it.
Chapter 2 or verse 48.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwinoec.htm
 
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