What do YOU think?

[CaptFun]

Thank you so much for all the effort you put into this.

God Bless you,
patrick

Lol. You may have a big future in the field of diplomacy if you want it Patrick.

I do plan to plagiarize this sentence - the next time I don’t know what to make of someone’s lengthy take - but want to be nice to them.

 

[tonyfish58]

Dear Brethren in Christ,

Do you think that Catholics are unnecessarly obstinate? Too set in our ways

God Bless you,Patrick

Patrick - I think you are Strong and Love your Faith all for a very good reason

“Obstinate” can be a Virtue or a Vice

One has to find the balance, but where is it

This my dear friend is one of the Mysteries of Faith and the Love of God.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Stilldreamn]

You do know that Lutherans are disgruntled Catholics, right?

Some are more or less gruntled than others

In all seriousness, I am GLAD that Catholics stand firm, even if I can’t yet stand with you in full unity.

 

[Kaega]

Dear Brethren in Christ,

Do you think that Catholics are unnecessarly obstinate? Too set in our ways

No! These modern ‘fast faith’ religions - ‘it feels good therefore it’s right’ - are horrible, so someone just needs to remain rigorous.

 

[MichaelinMD]

Lol. You may have a big future in the field of diplomacy if you want it Patrick.

I do plan to plagiarize this sentence - the next time I don’t know what to make of someone’s lengthy take - but want to be nice to them.

Your earlier, lengthy reply was marvelous!!

And, I’d plagiarize Patrick’s one liner to you, too, if I didn’t have another, more favorite reply:
“Really? Wow!!”

 

[benjohnson]

That’s a 2-way street…

[bibledrb]Matthew 7:5[/bibledrb]

So I don’t think Harkonnen was being hypocritical - merely offering hope for a vigorous Catholic church doesn’t necessarily preclude hopping for the same in the Lutheran church.

Our friendly Harkonnen (I hope he doesn’t take my kitchen spices) does bring up a good point frankly.

Here in Seattle, I never every gave the Catholic church consideration as a church to build my faith. It’s gotten much better (praise be to God!) but at the time it wasn’t a place to go for worship.

One good Catholic that I’m really good friends with almost broke down in tears when I thanked him for keeping the faith in those dark times. He said “I felt so alone, watching the church being taken apart from the inside.”

We’re still seeing echoes of this - our vigiourous Lutheran school is swarming with Catholic children. It’s well known around here that to send your children to Catholic school is to risk them losing their faith.

Catholics have a tremendous opportunity to bring the Gospel to the world, but to also bring the Gospel to secularized Catholics.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

So I don’t think Harkonnen was being hypocritical - merely offering hope for a vigorous Catholic church doesn’t necessarily preclude hopping for the same in the Lutheran church.

Our friendly Harkonnen (I hope he doesn’t take my kitchen spices) does bring up a good point frankly.

Here in Seattle, I never every gave the Catholic church consideration as a church to build my faith. It’s gotten much better (praise be to God!) but at the time it wasn’t a place to go for worship.

One good Catholic that I’m really good friends with almost broke down in tears when I thanked him for keeping the faith in those dark times. He said “I felt so alone, watching the church being taken apart from the inside.”

We’re still seeing echoes of this - our vigiourous Lutheran school is swarming with Catholic children. It’s well known around here that to send your children to Catholic school is to risk them losing their faith.

Catholics have a tremendous opportunity to bring the Gospel to the world, but to also bring the Gospel to secularized Catholics.

Indeed. I work with many “Catholics” only one of whom is pro life, pro marriage, etc. All the rest are simply cultural Catholics who thumb their nose at the moral teachings of their church. I WISH they would get on the same page. I frequently thank that one Catholic for living our her faith.

It’s getting better. You are right about that.

70 million or so Catholics in this country all voting pro life, and making their voices heard would rock our culture in a good way.

 

[PJM]

=Isaiah45_9;11675050]You do know that Lutherans are disgruntled Catholics, right?

“Are” or where?

 

[PJM]

=benjohnson;11676375]So I don’t think Harkonnen was being hypocritical - merely offering hope for a vigorous Catholic church doesn’t necessarily preclude hopping for the same in the Lutheran church.

Our friendly Harkonnen (I hope he doesn’t take my kitchen spices) does bring up a good point frankly.

Here in Seattle, I never every gave the Catholic church consideration as a church to build my faith. It’s gotten much better (praise be to God!) but at the time it wasn’t a place to go for worship.

One good Catholic that I’m really good friends with almost broke down in tears when I thanked him for keeping the faith in those dark times. He said “I felt so alone, watching the church being taken apart from the inside.”

We’re still seeing echoes of this - our vigiourous Lutheran school is swarming with Catholic children. It’s well known around here that to send your children to Catholic school is to risk them losing their faith.

Catholics have a tremendous opportunity to bring the Gospel to the world, but to also bring the Gospel to secularized Catholics.

So my friend Ben,

a question to ask yourself.

May I assume that you understand that truth must be singular per defined issues? THAT’s not the question]

How can God “Good and Perfect” wait some 1,500 +years for Luther to introduce His One right set of faith beliefs. And where does one find evidence of such a decision?

You may wish to read Heb 6: 4-8 but the entire chapter is worthy of your time and effort. If you’d like an explanation of what it means, please let me know.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[Isaiah45_9]

So I don’t think Harkonnen was being hypocritical - merely offering hope for a vigorous Catholic church doesn’t necessarily preclude hopping for the same in the Lutheran church.

Our friendly Harkonnen (I hope he doesn’t take my kitchen spices) does bring up a good point frankly.

Here in Seattle, I never every gave the Catholic church consideration as a church to build my faith. It’s gotten much better (praise be to God!) but at the time it wasn’t a place to go for worship.

One good Catholic that I’m really good friends with almost broke down in tears when I thanked him for keeping the faith in those dark times. He said “I felt so alone, watching the church being taken apart from the inside.”

We’re still seeing echoes of this - our vigiourous Lutheran school is swarming with Catholic children. It’s well known around here that to send your children to Catholic school is to risk them losing their faith.

Catholics have a tremendous opportunity to bring the Gospel to the world, but to also bring the Gospel to secularized Catholics.

Ben,

Regardless of the intentions, the comment is hypocritical. More so, if we consider that the comment applies to all of us.

I like what Matthew Kelly always ask: Are you the best version of yourself?

There is always room for improvement for all of us, the moment we think we don’t need to be better is the moment we stop being better. And it’s not a performance issue but a realization that without Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5).

There’s a saying here in the “Bible belt” area that people say before they are about to say something bad about someone: “Bless his/her/their heart” but he/she {Fill in with criticism/insult). It can be added to the end of the statement as well.

Bottom line: We can always be better.

 

[Stilldreamn]

“Bless his/her/their heart” but he/she {Fill in with criticism/insult). It can be added to the end of the statement as well.

I used to think the Midwest had the market cornered on “passive agressive” remarks until I moved South. “Bless his heart, he works so hard” is not a compliment, it’s code for “he looks busy but gets nothing done.”

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I used to think the Midwest had the market cornered on “passive agressive” remarks until I moved South. “Bless his heart, he works so hard” is not a compliment, it’s code for “he looks busy but gets nothing done.”

Ha! You know exactly what I’m talking about, lol.

 

[JonNC]

That’s a 2-way street…

[bibledrb]Matthew 7:5[/bibledrb]

While I don’t think House meant this as critical of Catholicism, I heartily agree that its a two way street. Broad brush here, but we Lutherans, at least in America, are lazy when it comes to catechesis, and often easily distracted by the fads of the day.

Jon

 

[benjohnson]

May I assume that you understand that truth must be singular per defined issues? THAT’s not the question.

Certainly! Intellectual truth is important for the mature christian. I will say we have to be careful not to think we’re saved by our intellect.

How can God “Good and Perfect” wait some 1,500 +years for Luther to introduce His One right set of faith beliefs. And where does one find evidence of such a decision?

I don’t think Luther did anything but point to the cross. We preach christ and him crucified.

We don’t think of ourselves as not being (part of) the one, holy, apostolic church.

You may wish to read Heb 6: 4-8 but the entire chapter is worthy of your time and effort. If you’d like an explanation of what it means, please let me know.

Luther’s commentary on it this verse seems wise “If anyones has fallen away from Christ, who is the true sacrifice for sins, and seeks another way or mode to be saved and to go to heaven, he will never go there, he will not succeed.”

The Lutheran Study Bible has this commentary - "If you have loved ones who have fallen away, continually pray for them, that God may restore them.

God Bless you,
Patrick

God Bless you too Patrick. I love your feistiness and your clear calling to faith. While I don’t always agree, you have my respect.

 

[benjohnson]

While I don’t think House meant this as critical of Catholicism, I heartily agree that its a two way street. Broad brush here, but we Lutherans, at least in America, are lazy when it comes to catechesis, and often easily distracted by the fads of the day.

Jon

Frankly, I wish relations between Catholics and Lutherans were better. We could certainly encourage each other.

 

[Peter_J]

No more than any other person committed to their faith tradition.

That, more or less, is my response as well. Being (or becoming) Catholic, or Orthodox, or Anglican, or Lutheran, or Methodists, etc etc, generally doesn’t make someone obstinate.

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by House Harkonnen
No, I wish you guys were MORE obstinate. I would be overjoyed it more Catholics actually believed and obeyed the dictates of their church.

Hear hear! For example, I esteem the “intolerant” LCMS more highly than the “tolerant” ELCA.

 

[TexanKnight]

hmmmm

Obstinate: refusing to change your behavior or your ideas

Full Definition of OBSTINATE

1
: perversely adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion
2
: not easily subdued, remedied, or removed <obstinate fever

I guess, if you went with the second definition, then yes. And all Catholics should be.

Under the first, no. There is no reason that makes sense enough to sway me. However, if some showed up, I would study it. That is how I left the LDS Church.

 

[PJM]

=benjohnson;11677534]Certainly! Intellectual truth is important for the mature christian. I will say we have to be careful not to think we’re saved by our intellect.

I don’t think Luther did anything but point to the cross. We preach christ and him crucified.

We don’t think of ourselves as not being (part of) the one, holy, apostolic church.

Luther’s commentary on it this verse seems wise “If anyones has fallen away from Christ, who is the true sacrifice for sins, and seeks another way or mode to be saved and to go to heaven, he will never go there, he will not succeed.”

The Lutheran Study Bible has this commentary - "If you have loved ones who have fallen away, continually pray for them, that God may restore them.

God Bless you too Patrick. I love your feistiness and your clear calling to faith. While I don’t always agree, you have my respect.

And you have mine as well.

God Bless you!

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Hear hear! For example, I esteem the “intolerant” LCMS more highly than the “tolerant” ELCA.

Well, the LCMS is almost as obstinate as we are