What does Andromeda tell us about God?

[ngill09]

No, I would say that if we exist then the existence of God is the most rational and most plausable conclusion we can have to explain how we and the universe came to be.

This doesn’t answer the point. You said it’s implausible that something should exist without a cause, yet your solution is to posit the existence of a person that exists without a cause. This is like trying to bail water out of your boat by adding more water.

Of course that is an unintelligible response. It is not plausable that ’ dirt ’ caused itself, or that gravity caused itself, or whatever. I know that supposedly some very intelligent people talk that way but it is hard to believe that they really believe it. I think they are just " whistling in the grave yard. " Just bravado before the cheering crowds.

Linus2nd

I don’t see why it’s any more plausible that some impersonal thing exists without a cause than that some personal thing exists without a cause.

I challenge you to consider this honestly and not resort to the strawman that “dirt caused itself”. Why is it absurd to think that there is some unknown impersonal basis of reality but “obvious” that some person is the basis of reality? Why is it absurd to think that the universe, at base, exists for no reason but not absurd to think that Yahweh exists for absolutely no reason?

The dilemma at base is this: Is the most basic fact of reality a person (a god) or something that is not a person? Given how unintuitive and bizarre most explanations we’ve discovered in this world are (Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, anyone?), it seems more likely to me that whatever is at base is not an anthropomorphic entity like a god. What is wrong with that?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

This is fascinating to me as you’re a Deist, according to your self ID. A deist (I googled it) believes there is some creator or highest power that created everything, so you believe based on evidence of nature and reality as perceived, if I’m not mistaken. You’ve truly NEVER seen anything spiritual, paranormal, a miracle or other unexplainable thing in your life?

I’m sure all of us have encountered something that we could not explain. Sometimes we are able to explain it later. Sometimes it may never go explained. We’ve got incomplete knowledge of the world in which we live. So to all of us there’s probably more than one thing that currently is and will remain unexplained. But a lack of an explanation for something doesn’t necessarily lead to the conclusion of an intervening all powerful being. (I think this would be a variation of The God of the Gaps).

While the common attribute of deist is the belief that there were some entity that may have initiated the universe beyond that the god-concept of a deist might not be anything like that of Yahweh. A deistic god may or may be thought to still exists. It might be thought to be observing the universe non-interactively or might be thought to have gone off to do something else leaving the universe unattended. Our existence might be thought to be part of the objective of a deistic god or even viewed as a side-effect and not intended.

Also I’ve never seen anything that I’d identify as paranormal, miraculous, or supernatural, even back when I was still a Christian.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . I’ve never seen anything that I’d identify as paranormal, miraculous, or supernatural, even back when I was still a Christian.

I believe you.

But, I am left wondering about what is involved cognitively when one “identifies” something. I imagine a particular experience being translated into a phenomenon that fits in with one’s world view. What might be seen as miraculous is normalized, reformulated to be acceptable with the person’s overall experience of reality. The alternative would be to have one’s world shaken up.

That is one of the lures of atheism. The chaos and mystery of existence is replaced by the apparent unshakeable structure of physical science. It’s like the gamer totally into his mmorpg where everything is organized and predictable, behind him, the room, his life in disorder. Life is messy.

Not that the person’s life is necessarily in disarray;
it may be neatly folded and put away.

What is really amazing is the mundane in the face of eternal mystery.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

This doesn’t answer the point. You said it’s implausible that something should exist without a cause, yet your solution is to posit the existence of a person that exists without a cause. This is like trying to bail water out of your boat by adding more water.

Come now, I’m no school boy. Because we exist, it is plausible, even necessary that God exists. If I used your logic I would ask you why don’t you see bowling balls popping into and out of existence every where?

I don’t see why it’s any more plausible that some impersonal thing exists without a cause than that some personal thing exists without a cause.

But God is very personal, in fact he loves you and me and everything he created. That is why we exist at this moment, he keeps us in existence each and every moment.

I challenge you to consider this honestly and not resort to the strawman that “dirt caused itself”. Why is it absurd to think that there is some unknown impersonal basis of reality but “obvious” that some person is the basis of reality? Why is it absurd to think that the universe, at base, exists for no reason but not absurd to think that Yahweh exists for absolutely no reason?

There are many reasons. When was the last time you read the Five Ways of St. Thomas?
They are being discussed on this forum, why not take a look and comment there.

The dilemma at base is this: Is the most basic fact of reality a person (a god) or something that is not a person? Given how unintuitive and bizarre most explanations we’ve discovered in this world are (Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, anyone?), it seems more likely to me that whatever is at base is not an anthropomorphic entity like a god. What is wrong with that?

I’m afraid some of our modern scientists/cosmologists have been working on you. But I assure you that God is no anthropomorphic entity. He is a pure spirit, who is eternal, infinite in power, present every where, knows everything - even all possible things, keeps the universe ( and you and me ) in existence, guides and directs the universe through the natures he has given each thing, infinitely wise, good, just. Why not take a peek at the Catechism linked below, and hear our side of the story?

I’m afraid the impersonal world some scientists/cosmologists doesn’t appeal to me.

Linus2nd

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I believe you.

But, I am left wondering about what is involved cognitively when one “identifies” something. I imagine a particular experience being translated into a phenomenon that fits in with one’s world view. What might be seen as miraculous is normalized, reformulated to be acceptable with the person’s overall experience of reality. The alternative would be to have one’s world shaken up.

That is one of the lures of atheism. The chaos and mystery of existence is replaced by the apparent unshakeable structure of physical science. It’s like the gamer totally into his mmorpg where everything is organized and predictable, behind him, the room, his life in disorder. Life is messy.

Some cases may fit this description, some experiences might not. When I read this one of the people to which I tried to apply it is my father and I don’t think he fits this description very well.

He comes from a family that was religious (I’m not sure of the denomination) and he remains Christian himself. However he also declares that he doesn’t know that what he has been taught about the Christian God, Jesus, and the afterlife is true. Those around him have described feeling a range of feelings, emotions, and experiences that have confirmed for them the existence of God. But he himself says that he has yet to have such an experience. He’s a Christian that also hasn’t identified anything as a miracle nor has he had any experiences that he can identify as being “of the spirit.” It was only a week ago that he was having a conversation expressing that he wants to reconcile this lack of experience and feelings with his position as being a Christian.

Sometimes one’s interpretation of their experiences is adjusted for their worldview.
Sometimes one’s worldview is adjusted for their interpretation of their experiences.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . It was only a week ago that he was having a conversation expressing that he wants to reconcile this lack of experience and feelings with his position as being a Christian. . .

We yearn to connect with reality.
It is all right here; if it is not good enough, it is not good enough.
Sometimes acceptance of the mundane reveals the overarching magic.

 

[AnimalSpirits]

That is one of the lures of atheism. The chaos and mystery of existence is replaced by the apparent unshakeable structure of physical science. It’s like the gamer totally into his mmorpg where everything is organized and predictable, behind him, the room, his life in disorder. Life is messy.

I’m confused about why one would think this. When I was religious, all questions had an easy (ultimate) answer- I was created by the all powerful, all caring being, living on the playground built for me and my kind. Did I know literally everything? No- but I “knew” that said all powerful dude had my back if I had his. Regardless of the specifics, I’m here because he put me here and that’s kinda neat.

Now I’m a hairy lump of stardust on a bigger lump of stardust (relative to the universe), hurdling through an endless void. I’m here because a few billion years ago some clumps arranged in such a way that that they would make an identical clump every so often. If there’s a question I don’t know the answer to, I have to accept that in some cases literally nobody knows- it’s conceivable that nobody will ever know between now and the end of our species, or even the end of intelligent life.

I didn’t jump ship because atheism somehow made me feel better, but because the religious narrative didn’t stand up to scrutiny.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I didn’t jump ship because atheism somehow made me feel better, but because the religious narrative didn’t stand up to scrutiny.

I never willfully jumped ship. Instead I was asked a rather innocuous question about some cards that made me realize the ship had eroded away and I wasn’t on it anymore. At the time I didn’t even have a label for it.

 

[Bradski]

I never willfully jumped ship. Instead I was asked a rather innocuous question about some cards that made me realize the ship had eroded away and I wasn’t on it anymore. At the time I didn’t even have a label for it.

I don’t think that AS meant that he made a conscious decision (apologies if I’m wrong) to move from one position to another. It’s just that, as you say, you realise that the deck beneath your feet is no longer there. You can’t remember at what point you had to start treading water, but now (it seemed to have happened all of a sudden) you are, and you need something else to keep you afloat.

Still splashing about…

 

[AnimalSpirits]

I don’t think that AS meant that he made a conscious decision (apologies if I’m wrong) to move from one position to another. It’s just that, as you say, you realise that the deck beneath your feet is no longer there.

Ya, pretty much this. Although I do recall the moment when I asked “do I actually believe this stuff?”, it had been preceded by a lengthy degradation (“do I really believe this particular part?”)

 

[Aloysium]

. . . I was asked a rather innocuous question about some cards that made me realize the ship had eroded away and I wasn’t on it anymore. At the time I didn’t even have a label for it.

. . . you realise that the deck beneath your feet is no longer there. You can’t remember at what point you had to start treading water, but now (it seemed to have happened all of a sudden) you are, and you need something else to keep you afloat.

Still splashing about…

Ya, pretty much this. Although I do recall the moment when I asked “do I actually believe this stuff?”, it had been preceded by a lengthy degradation (“do I really believe this particular part?”)

This is wonderful - reality.

Now, where does it end? The foundations fail, abyss opens . . .
Does science actually satisfy? Will its mathematics answer what you really want to know?
CERN colliders and Hubbles most definitely open up the mystery.
The mystery remains. No easy answers.

I have absolutely not always seen things the way I do now.
In someone else’s shoes, I wouldn’t believe what I say, but I would not disregard it.
You wouldn’t be here if you had given up the search.
The Truth beckons and waits.

 

[inocente]

What does Andromeda tell us about God?

Not sure if this has been pointed out before, but as Andromeda is due to collide with us in around four billion years, that may put an upper limit for the timing of the Last Judgment.

 

[Aloysium]

Not sure if this has been pointed out before, but as Andromeda is due to collide with us in around four billion years, that may put an upper limit for the timing of the Last Judgment.

Just to assuage people’s anxiety, the stars are so far apart the chances of collision are remote. We’re good.