What does "before Abraham" mean?

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Vico said:
Yes it is about eternity.

(Augustine) Before Abraham was, I was; but, Before Abraham was made, who was not made save by me, I am. … Nor did He say this, Before Abraham was made I was made; for In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth

(Chrysostom) Need a modern English paraphrase?
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Can’t it mean that his soul created before Abraham’s soul?
Vico said:
For what reason did he did not say “Before Abraham was, I was” instead of “Before Abraham was, I Am”? As the Father uses this expression “I Am”, so also does Christ; for it signifies continuous Being, regardless of all time. For this reason, what he said to them, seemed to be blasphemous. Now if they could not bear the comparison with Abraham, even though it was a minor issue, then if He had made Himself equal to the Father many times, would they have ever stopped stoning Him?
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You are right, but it is about “I AM”, not about “before Abraham.”
Usagi said:
You want evidence for Abraham being the first patriarch of (what became) the Israelite people? The first person in historical times to whom God spoke, to the extent that we call God “the God of Abraham” and the three religions that descend from that interaction the “Abrahamic” religions?

The evidence is kind of voluminous. Start with the book of Genesis, I suppose.
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No. I did not ask for that.
Usagi said:
It certainly points to Jesus being more than just the thirty-something man standing before them. Technically one could be “before Abraham” and not be eternal, but coupled with the “I am” it comes across as a claim of divinity (and seems to have been taken as such by the listeners).
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Yes, but I meant without “I am” as absolute reason to his eternity.
Vico said:
Genealogy leading to Abram (Abraham) is: Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jarad, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech, Noah, Shem, Arphaxad, Salah, Eber, Peug, Reu, Serug, Nahor, Terah.
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I did not mean this.
vsedriver said:
if “I AM” points to YHWH then “before Abraham” is easily understood and requires no lengthy explanation.
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So there is not a certain Interpretation.
 
Vico said:
You asked: “Can’t it mean that his soul created before Abraham’s soul?”

No, for then it would be “Before Abraham was, I was”.
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But if consider soul as a timeless being?
 
I am surprised that Jesus’ meaning is so difficult for you to understand, OP. Jesus’ original audience got the point at once, and Vico has expounded it brilliantly, unpicking the grammar for you and pointing to two exemplary exegetes.
 
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Maximian said:
I am surprised that Jesus meaning is so difficult for you to understand, OP. Jesus’ original audience got the point at once, and Vico has expounded it brilliantly, unpicking the grammar for you and pointing to two exemplary exegetes.
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I understand. But if we accept what Vico says, we must accept that there are only one proof for Jesus’ eternity in this verse, not Two. Do you agree with this?
 
pohandes said:
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Vico:
A human soul is created with the body but does not die with the body.
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If the soul be a material thing, then it can’t be immortal and sometime will be destroyed.
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The soul is spiritual.

Soul: “The spiritual immortal part in human beings that animates their body.” - Modern Catholic Dictionary
 
Vico said:
The soul is spiritual.

Soul: “The spiritual immortal part in human beings that animates their body.” - Modern Catholic Dictionary
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Yes, I mean it. Soul is immortal, then it is not material, and when it is not material, it is timeless.
 
pohandes said:
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Vico:
The soul is spiritual.

Soul: “The spiritual immortal part in human beings that animates their body.” - Modern Catholic Dictionary
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Yes, I mean it. Soul is immortal, then it is not material, and when it is not material, it is timeless.
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It does not exist for all time, since it has a beginning with the body.
 
pohandes said:
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Vico:
It does not exist for all time , since it has a beginning with the body.
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Can you prove that Catholic teachings, say that Soul is in time?
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Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, I, Q90, Article 4. Whether the human soul was produced before the body?
Objection 1. It would seem that the human soul was made before the body. For the work of creation preceded the work of distinction and adornment, as shown above (I:66:1; I:70:1). But the soul was made by creation; whereas the body was made at the end of the work of adornment. Therefore the soul of man was made before the body.
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Reply to Objection 1. If the soul by its nature were a complete species, so that it might be created as to itself, this reason would prove that the soul was created by itself in the beginning. But as the soul is naturally the form of the body, it was necessarily created, not separately, but in the body.
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https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1090.htm#article4
 
Vico said:
Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, I, Q90, Article 4. Whether the human soul was produced before the body?
Objection 1. It would seem that the human soul was made before the body. For the work of creation preceded the work of distinction and adornment, as shown above (I:66:1; I:70:1). But the soul was made by creation; whereas the body was made at the end of the work of adornment. Therefore the soul of man was made before the body.
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As a evidence for Catholic faith, it is good, but as a answer to what I did say, it is not related to what I said. I do not say our souls created before our body. I’m saying souls are not material to have time.
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