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fbl9
Guest
Why not? Are they not persons?
Or do you deny orginal sin?
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Or do you deny orginal sin?
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Dokimas
Guest
call it what you will, matters not to me
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Dokimas
Guest
If they’ve never been born how can they be born again? Being born AGAIN implies being born the first time, does it not?
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Dokimas
Guest
You were born once (body and soul); you have a dead spirit which NEEDS to be born; baptism in the Holy Spirit will give life to your spirit, thus you will be born again.
This goes very nicely with what God said to Adam, “in the day you eat of the friut of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you will surely die.” Adam and Eve’s body or soul did not die that day; their spirit did.
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Dokimas
Guest
You only dealt with half the comment. Does “YOU” mean ALL?
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fbl9
Guest
got me on that i guess
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fbl9
Guest
Is not the soul one’s spirit as well. To my knowledge the soul of a person is unique in that it is spritual. As opposed to the soul of an animal which is not spirit.
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elvisman
Guest
Well, you’re right about ONE thing - baptism indeed imparts the Holy Spirit upon you. the Church agrees with you on that which is PRECISELY why baptism is** regenerative.**
As for what Jesus meant, you’re off base. this is what he told Nicodemus:
John 3:5
"Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."
TRANSLATION:
"Truly I am telling you that unless you are Baptized - you cannot get into heaven."
In verse 10, he scolds Nicodemus for not understanding about the necessity of Baptism because it comes straight from the prophecy of Ezekiel (Ezek. 36:25).
It’s interesting to point out that this conversation with Nicodemus takes place in the Gospel of John because earlier, Jesus baptism was the prototype for ALL baptisms to come. There was water - AND the Holy Spirit:
John 1:29-33
***The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world. ******He is the one of whom I said, ‘A man is coming after me who ranks ahead of me because he existed before me.’ ***
**I did not know him, but the reason why I came baptizing with water was that he might be made known to Israel.” **
**John testified further, saying, "I saw the Spirit come down like a dove from the sky and remain upon him. **
**I did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the holy Spirit.’ **
This is why Jesus told the apostles to BAPTIZE in the Great Commission at the end of Matthew’s gospel.
There are no accidents or coincidences when it comes to the Word of God, Doki . . .
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elvisman
Guest
YOU means everybody that wants to get into heaven.
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elvisman
Guest
Ummm . . . that’s the WHOLE point.
Jesus said that unless you are born of water and spirit, you cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven.
You have PROVEN my point that Jesus was NOT speaking of physical birth here. He was speaking completely about spiritual rebirth through Baptism (water & Spirit).**
**Thanks, Doki . . .
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SyCarl
Guest
The question is not what God can or can’t do. The question is whether Jesus was telling the truth when He said “unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Unless means that born of water and the Spirit is an absolute necessity. So if Jesus is talking about water baptism, He is saying you can’t enter Heven without it. No baptism of desire, no baptism of blood, no salvation for unbaptised infants, or aborted fetuses. This is why the Augustine felt that unbaptised infants were damned and why concepts such as limbo of the infants were developed. God can save anyone He wants but if He does it without water baptism, then He makes Jesus a liar if John 3:5 refers to water baptism…
This does not present a problem to me since if it doesn’t refer to water baptism, no contortions are required for unborn or unbaptised infants to be saved.
What does Jesus mean then? He is referring to the twofold rebirth by the Spirit mentioned in Ezekiel 36. The first is the cleansing from sin and the second is a new spirit.
What then is this water? Jesus uses the imagery of water several places in John’s gospel The first is John 3:5. Then there is John 4:10-14 and John 7:38-39.
Clearly Jesus is using water to describe the Holy Spirit and in John 3:5 He is again using water as a reference to the Holy Spirit who both cleanses and renews the spirit.
Another indication that water baptism is not what born of water and the spirit means is that Jesus expected Nicodemus as a Pharisee to understand what He meant.
Christian baptism had not yet been instituted so Nicodemus could not be expected to know of it.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I’m not sure we haven’t reached a point where all is understood.
What “exactly” isn’t understood?
We are all Born Again of Water and Spirit, . And NO, infants or children who pass-on during abortion or a difficult pregnancy are not baptised. The Popes have wriiten several encyclicals in regards to this. They are innocent, there only sin is that of Original Sin.
God being all love an mercy I’m sure The Lord takes them directly to heaven. The problem with the idea of abortion isn’t the children, its those making that choice who enter into moral sin. Then if they are not Catholic/Christian and do not have the ability to confess? Thats a serious problem.
But it seems like there another point I’m missing here?
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Dokimas
Guest
Seems humans have a body, soul and spirit while animals have a body and soul.
Seems to explain why those without the quickening of the Holy Spirit act so animalistic: murderings, uncontroled sex, self, self self, etc.
That would explain us being originally created in God’s image which is Triune; we too are triune,
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Dokimas
Guest
The church agrees that it’s not water baptism but a spiritual baptism? Good. That makes the idea that baptism regenerates logical as the Holy Spirit brings to life our human spirit.
That’s what it says.
Correction: your understanding, not a translation.
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In verse 10, he scolds Nicodemus for not understanding about the necessity of Baptism because it comes straight from the prophecy of Ezekiel (Ezek. 36:25).[/SIGN]
John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
No mention of baptism.
Ez 36:25ff
25 ¶ "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
28 "Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
29 "I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. I will call for the grain and multiply it, and bring no famine upon you.
30 "And I will multiply the fruit of your trees and the increase of your fields, so that you need never again bear the reproach of famine among the nations.
31 "Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations.
32 “Not for your sake do I do this,” says the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel!”
This is a promise to the Nation of Israel.
What do you think ‘sprinkled water’ represents?
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 11:28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
It represents the Blood of Christ which He willing shed for us.
The water baptisms performed in John 3 were not with pure water, it was in a body of water, not the sprinkling of pure water.
That is interesting.
We agree on this.
The OT reveals a relationship with God through rituals. The NT reveals relationship with God, not by rituals, but by relationship through the new birth by faith in Jesus and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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Dokimas
Guest
Actually I have not proven your point seeing you missed my point. Nice try.Ummm . . . that’s the WHOLE point.
Jesus said that unless you are born of water and spirit, you cannot enter the Kingdom of heaven.
You have PROVEN** my point that Jesus was NOT speaking of physical birth here. He was speaking completely about spiritual rebirth through Baptism (water & Spirit).
**Thanks, *Doki ***. . .
What happens to aborted babies? Do they go to hell, puragory, heaven or nowhere?
Or does it depend upon whether they get baptized?
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Dokimas
Guest
So, because an aborted baby can’t reason whether or not it wants to go to Heaven, are you saying this passage is not for them? or for infants that die early in life?
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Carlan
Guest
Sorry for butting in like this, but I must say “Oh the nit picking”!
We don’t know everything Doki, we trust God for our precious aborted babies and those dieing without Baptism, Peace, Carlan.
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elvisman
Guest
**And, as I ****ALREADY **pointed out to you - Jesus gave his Church his Supreme Authority to declare his truth to the world and it would be ratified on earth - and in heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, 18-15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23). He promised that the Holy Spirit would guide it to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).
**I ALSO pointed out to you (twice) that you cannot pigeonhole God into your way of thinking. Just because you adhere to a wooden, literal interpretation of his Word - doesn’t mean that HE does. **
**This is precisely the kind of blunder Protestants make with MANY Scripture verses, creating false doctrines as a result. Sola Fide (faith alone) is defended by verses like Rom. 10:9, *“…***if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
**However, you guys throw away all of the other verses that completely debunk Sola Fide and list the things that we must DO to cooperate with God’s grace in order to be saved like:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)****
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)**
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46,Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21)
- Dying and being buried with him through Baptism (Rom. 6:1-11)
- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2).
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elvisman
Guest
You means everybody that wants to get into heaven.
Babies don’t possess all of their faculties and therefore, cannot want much except to be fed, changed and go to sleep.
**I think you already know that but are grasping at straws because your argument has been pretty mush obliterated . . .
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elvisman
Guest
The Church teaches that we leave them to the mercy of God. Our God is a God of justice, who hears the cry of innocent blood and will not tolerate it (Psalm 106:35, 37-38, 2 Kings 17:17-18).Actually I have not proven your point seeing you missed my point. Nice try.
What happens to aborted babies? Do they go to hell, puragory, heaven or nowhere?
Or does it depend upon whether they get baptized?
**Based on verses like these, it is difficult to imagine that God sends the unborn to hell.
**
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