What does 'Church no, Jesus yes' mean?

[graceandglory]

There is a quote by Pope Benedict that says (READ BELOW). I was wondering what does ‘Church no, Jesus yes’ mean?

I’ve heard that many fundamentalist Protestants believe in a ‘just me and Jesus’ religion. I believe that without the Catholic Church the probability of my salvation wouldn’t be very high. So what is this so-called ‘just me and Jesus’ religion?

When approached with a deep theological question, my former evangelical pastor would chime, "I don’t know about that, but I DO know about Jesus!"

You know that’s all well and good. But we are told in scripture to grow up.

Another of my evangelical pastors, this one connected to a denomination, (one he helped to start in the 60s), when I asked him which bible commentary I should purchase, (Because I realized that I was not sufficient to be able to interpret scripture on my own, but needed an authority), he just LAUGHED! He honestly couldn’t recommend one, because he woudn’t agree with any ONE of them!

For some inside on the Jesus yes, Church no movement that is growing in America today, go here

The God Journey - Podcast, Blog, Forum

This site will give some insight into how they feel that organized, man-made religion has failed society today.

The movement is also known as “The Emergent Church”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church

Here’s an evangelical explanation of the “Jesus yes, Church no” people from Christianity Today.
christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/february/11.35.html

Here is a quick Amazon.com look at some titles. The titles and pictures on the covers of the books, are a good illustration of what is in the minds of the “Jesus yes, Church no” folk.

Without a Catholic world view, and seeing the Christian faith through the eyes of the Church of 2,000 years, even prominent evangelical Protestant apologists can’t say that this movement is going in the wrong direction. As protestants, they have already denied the Church’s authority. From Scripture alone, with a protestant, anti-Catholic interpretation of scripture, they can’t fault the movement. So it is really difficult to engage them in a conversation explaining the necessity of the Church.

My same friends who told me 20 yrs ago that my Catholic dad was going to hell, because he didn’t get “born again” the evangelical way, now don’t even practice any faith other than “Jesus yes, Church no.”

 

[Esdra]

…]
Another of my evangelical pastors, this one connected to a denomination, (one he helped to start in the 60s), when I asked him which bible commentary I should purchase, (Because I realized that I was not sufficient to be able to interpret scripture on my own, but needed an authority), he just LAUGHED! He honestly couldn’t recommend one, because he woudn’t agree with any ONE of them!

…]

That’s rather funny: I used to bomb my evangelical pastor with questions regarding the Scriptures. And he gave me as a birthday present William Barclay’s commentary to the New Testament.
He is Baptist. - And William Barclay was (is?) a Presbyterian.
That’s funny because Presbyterians don’t agree in some points with Baptists. (Like the sacramental state of Baptism). W. B. sometimes even quotes apocrypha (also considered as such by the CC!) like the Book of Enoch.
I am not at all sure if my pastor was aware of that!

 

[Esdra]

Yes - “priest, prophet, and king” because of our Baptism into Christ.

But the ministerial priesthood is different than our baptismal priesthood.

So we, as laity, CAN for example recieve prophecies of God then?
Why then is so less heard about the effects of the Holy Spirit on each of the Church members (this doesn’t necessarily mean that this needs to occur every mass) in masses? - Like it is the case i.e. in a Pentecostal Church or in the Charismatic Renewal of the Catholic Church?

 

[jmcrae]

So we, as laity, CAN for example recieve prophecies of God then?

Of course!! What do you think the three little children were doing at Fatima?! What do you think St. Faustina was doing, in the Divine Mercy?!

Why then is so less heard about the effects of the Holy Spirit on each of the Church members (this doesn’t necessarily mean that this needs to occur every mass) in masses?

Listen more closely to the readings of the Easter Season - every single one of them is all about the Holy Spirit. Go to a Daily Mass today - you will hear it being read out.

Like it is the case i.e. in a Pentecostal Church or in the Charismatic Renewal of the Catholic Church?

It is there. Ask the Holy Spirit to open your ears, so that you can truly hear, with your heart and your mind together, what is being said in the Mass.

 

[Esdra]

Of course!! What do you think the three little children were doing at Fatima?! What do you think St. Faustina was doing, in the Divine Mercy?!



Listen more closely to the readings of the Easter Season - every single one of them is all about the Holy Spirit. Go to a Daily Mass today - you will hear it being read out.

It is there. Ask the Holy Spirit to open your ears, so that you can truly hear, with your heart and your mind together, what is being said in the Mass.

Nice answer!
First, daily masses don’t exist anymore already for 10 years or so in my parish, due to a severe lack of priests. (Our parish was joined together with the two neighbouring parishes) Not even every Sunday is a mass - often it’s only a liturgy of the word (or: word service or Divine Service - Which is the correct term?!).

Second, I am so sorry, so nice as your post sounds, I don’t really get what you mean?!
I asked about laity having prophesies, speaking in tongues etc. - in short: the Gifts of the Holy Spirit written in 1 Corinthians 12:1-11).

What does this have to do with mass?
And where in mass does this occur what I am referring to (Do you understand what I try to say, let’s ask like this?)?

in Christ,
a confused,

 

[Sonny1954]

Fundamentally, I believe that such a view is wrong. However, I think I can understand those who love Jesus and want to live by his teachings, but at the same time are disgusted with the lavish lifestyles, the arrogance and sometimes immoral and illegal behavior on the part of men who claim to speak for God. It’s a situation that, in my judgement, Church leaders have largely brought upon themselves.

 

[mackbrislawn]

So we, as laity, CAN for example recieve prophecies of God then?

Hi Esdra,

Yes, anyone can receive prophecies of God.

Of course, these are private prophecies, not public, because we believe public prophecies ceased with the apostles. Belief of public prophecy is required of all the faithful, but not private prophecy. Examples would be Marian apparitions and prophecies as at Fatima and Knock. Maybe she appeared and maybe she didn’t. I myself don’t pay much attention to them as they aren’t my interest. A lot of people do believe in them, although it isn’t necessary.

Mack

 

[mackbrislawn]

Kristin234;7950548

It was the Church that wrote the scriptures that tell the story of Jesus? Wasn’t the church developed hundreds of years after the New Testament was written or am I wrong? I thought the scripture was written by Jews and Gentiles who were inspired by the holy spirit, so technically God is the one who wrote the scriptures.

Yes, it was the Church that wrote the New Testament scriptures, so it is by means of the Church that people know about Jesus. Church existed first, and then Christian scripture developed through and by the Church. Scripture developed over hundreds of years after Christ. Scripture indeed was written by Jews and Gentiles who were inspired by the Holy Spirit, and so technically God is the one who wrote the scriptures. However, it was only through people that God wrote, and it was through inspired members of the Church that God wrote. And we believe these men were inspired because that is a teaching of the Church!

I believe that reason the Bible has lasted this long and his word has been spread throughout the world is because God is the one who preserved it and he is the one who has authority over it.

This is certainly a correct way of thinking about it, but God did this all through people, by directing people to preserve, copy, and translate scripture manuscripts. God exercised his preservation of scripture only through humans, and exercises His authority over scripture only through humans. Authority exercised, that is, through the Church.

Yes, his word was preserved by people, but don’t you think a God as great as our God could preserve his word till the end of times without the help of powerless human beings like ourselves? I think all the credit should be given to him whether or not a group of people helped preserve it.

Well, let’s ask it this way…How could God preserve His word without the help of powerless human beings? How would He do that? I can’t think of a way. After all, since He gave his word to begin with through human beings, why wouldn’t He use them to preserve His word? How could He do it otherwise?

I do agree that it was the Catholic Church that put the Bible together though.

Yes, the universal catholic church, which means the western church plus the orthodox church. Some orthodox have a slightly different biblical canon than the western church. So there isn’t complete agreement within Christianity of what writings are inspired or not and should be in the canon.

There are people all over the world who aren’t a part of the Catholic Church that have helped spread the gospels. Many Protestants risked their lives by going to dangerous islands where no one has even heard the name of Christ. Someone from my Church went with his wife to evangelize in a Middle Eastern country and still stayed there to minister even after his wife was brutally killed for talking about Jesus.

Quite true. But notice, it is people who are helping spread the gospels! People who are risking their lives to tell others the name of Christ and to talk about Jesus.

 

[Esdra]

Hi Esdra,

Yes, anyone can receive prophecies of God.

Of course, these are private prophecies, not public, because we believe public prophecies ceased with the apostles. Belief of public prophecy is required of all the faithful, but not private prophecy. Examples would be Marian apparitions and prophecies as at Fatima and Knock. Maybe she appeared and maybe she didn’t. I myself don’t pay much attention to them as they aren’t my interest. A lot of people do believe in them, although it isn’t necessary.

Mack

But wasn’t the a public prophesy of that girl in France that warned Blessed Pope John Paul II that he would be murdered?

So public prophesy would then be what Joseph Smith Jr. thought got when he started “restoring the true Church” ,right?

My pastor once said, “Noone can determine what or you speaks in Fatima or even more prominent in Medjugorje.” - Because I had asked him if it would be wise to go with a very faithful Catholic girl in my age to Medjugorje.
He further said, “There are things happening and one can get easily deceived.”

Apropros Medjugorje: Why has Rome never so far authenticated if the prophesies there were true or not? (I learend that here at CAF. )

 

[mackbrislawn]

But wasn’t the a public prophesy of that girl in France that warned Blessed Pope John Paul II that he would be murdered?

So public prophesy would then be what Joseph Smith Jr. thought got when he started “restoring the true Church” ,right?

My pastor once said, “Noone can determine what or you speaks in Fatima or even more prominent in Medjugorje.” - Because I had asked him if it would be wise to go with a very faithful Catholic girl in my age to Medjugorje.
He further said, “There are things happening and one can get easily deceived.”

Apropros Medjugorje: Why has Rome never so far authenticated if the prophesies there were true or not? (I learend that here at CAF. )

By public I mean the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints, as Jude says. A private revelation to a person can of course be made public, that is, shared to others, but they don’t have to believe it if they don’t want to. Some private revelations can be approved by the Church, meaning that the faithful may believe them if they want, or disbelieve them if they want. Myself, I pay no attention. Therefore I don’t know much about Medjugorje, just that it has been controversial and hasn’t been approved by the Church as worthy of belief.

Yes, Joseph Smith and other like him thought they received public prophecy or revelation to restore the church, and they convinced millions that God was using them as prophets! But scripture says the faith was once for all delivered, not lost then delivered again and again!

 

[Esdra]

By public I mean the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints, as Jude says. A private revelation to a person can of course be made public, that is, shared to others, but they don’t have to believe it if they don’t want to. Some private revelations can be approved by the Church, meaning that the faithful may believe them if they want, or disbelieve them if they want. Myself, I pay no attention. Therefore I don’t know much about Medjugorje, just that it has been controversial and hasn’t been approved by the Church as worthy of belief.

Yes, Joseph Smith and other like him thought they received public prophecy or revelation to restore the church, and they convinced millions that God was using them as prophets! But scripture says the faith was once for all delivered, not lost then delivered again and again!

Okay, thank you for the info.
So I am right, Joseph Smith Jr. THOUGHT that he had public prophesies.

 

[jmcrae]

Nice answer!
First, daily masses don’t exist anymore already for 10 years or so in my parish, due to a severe lack of priests. (Our parish was joined together with the two neighbouring parishes) Not even every Sunday is a mass - often it’s only a liturgy of the word (or: word service or Divine Service - Which is the correct term?!).

That’s unfortunate! I hope you soon receive a priest and that you can one day be able to go to Mass, again. It is the most beautiful thing on earth, to go to Mass.

Second, I am so sorry, so nice as your post sounds, I don’t really get what you mean?!
I asked about laity having prophesies, speaking in tongues etc. - in short: the Gifts of the Holy Spirit written in 1 Corinthians 12:1-11).

The prophesies spoken about in I Corinthians 12 are of the sort that were received by the children of Fatima. One hears of people “prophesying” who in fact are doing nothing except babbling nonsense, which is called “speaking in tongues”. There is very little that is edifying to the Church about this, although it may well be a form of private prayer. Some people find it helpful from a personal point of view, but it’s not anything that the Pope would want to listen to, I don’t think.

What does this have to do with mass?

At Mass, we hear the readings from the Scriptures that tell us about the actions of the Holy Spirit in the Early Church, and we relate these things to our own lives. No one is rolling around on the floor or babbling senselessly, though - it is done in plain language.

 

[Esdra]

That’s unfortunate! I hope you soon receive a priest and that you can one day be able to go to Mass, again. It is the most beautiful thing on earth, to go to Mass.

I think this won’t happen anymore. My parish has been united now with the two neighbouring parishes for five years or so. I think this won’t change anymore.
In Austria in hardly no parish there are daily masses.
It’s just not worth it, I think, as hardly nobody goes to mass anyway. Except some old ladies. (At least in my parish.) - It’s not even better on Sundays. Most people are in Church on the High Church feasts like Eastern, Christmas, Pentecost, Corpus Christi (as we in Austria, especially the Tyrol, have a strong tradition concerning the procession. - Maybe you have heard of the terms “Schützen” and Andreas Hofer? Then you probably know what I am talking about.) etc.

The prophesies spoken about in I Corinthians 12 are of the sort that were received by the children of Fatima. One hears of people “prophesying” who in fact are doing nothing except babbling nonsense, which is called “speaking in tongues”. There is very little that is edifying to the Church about this, although it may well be a form of private prayer. Some people find it helpful from a personal point of view, but it’s not anything that the Pope would want to listen to, I don’t think.

At Mass, we hear the readings from the Scriptures that tell us about the actions of the Holy Spirit in the Early Church, and we relate these things to our own lives. No one is rolling around on the floor or babbling senselessly, though - it is done in plain language.

I mean, I also think that this babbling and rolling on the floor is a bit overexcited,
but mass has nothing to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12, has it?

You see my point?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I mean, I also think that this babbling and rolling on the floor is a bit overexcited,
but mass has nothing to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12, has it?

You see my point?

I am not sure about your point. It appears to be to deny anything Catholic. I’m just being honest here. I have provided scriptures and explanations that you ‘overlooked’ and never responded too. You wait and go to another poster and then we often see, ‘my pastor said…’ I never saw you establish the scriptures granting authority to your ‘pastor’. That brings up the contradiction, either there is no authority, or your pastor has the authority. One leaves us scattered, the other places a person over your spirituality, pretty much the same as the authority you deny in the Catholic Church.

The Church has everything to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12. How you are applying it to a single celebration is beyond me?

 

[Esdra]

I am not sure about your point. It appears to be to deny anything Catholic. I’m just being honest here. I have provided scriptures and explanations that you ‘overlooked’ and never responded too. You wait and go to another poster and then we often see, ‘my pastor said…’ I never saw you establish the scriptures granting authority to your ‘pastor’. That brings up the contradiction, either there is no authority, or your pastor has the authority. One leaves us scattered, the other places a person over your spirituality, pretty much the same as the authority you deny in the Catholic Church.

The Church has everything to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12. How you are applying it to a single celebration is beyond me?

There has to be some kind of authority!
I mean, like everywhere, also religions need “rules”.
The CC has it’s “rules” by the CCC, the Magesterium and the Apostolic Succession.
But also the Baptist Church(es) have their “rules” and, naturally, a pastor knows them.
So he has authority.
I am fairly new to the Baptist Church, so I can’t know all the Baptist rules yet. Thus I am quoting my pastor who has been going with Jesus for much more years I did so far.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

There has to be some kind of authority!
I mean, like everywhere, also religions need “rules”.
The CC has it’s “rules” by the CCC, the Magesterium and the Apostolic Succession.
But also the Baptist Church(es) have their “rules” and, naturally, a pastor knows them.
So he has authority.

The Baptist Church was established in the 1800s, I believe it was. Who did the Baptist receive their authority from? Who had the authority before them?

Because a pastor knows the rules, he has authority? If I start a Church today, I would know the rules of that Church, therefore I would have authority? Another example, I’ve seen some of your posts on non-trinitarian Churches. Don’t their pastors know the rules of their Churches, therefore they have authority?

Authority has a ‘hierarchy’. Who is the lead authority within the Baptist Church?

It appears you’re willing to submit to an authority because someone tells you they are authoritative…

 

[Esdra]

The Baptist Church was established in the 1800s, I believe it was. Who did the Baptist receive their authority from? Who had the authority before them?

Because a pastor knows the rules, he has authority? If I start a Church today, I would know the rules of that Church, therefore I would have authority? Another example, I’ve seen some of your posts on non-trinitarian Churches. Don’t their pastors know the rules of their Churches, therefore they have authority?

Authority has a ‘hierarchy’. Who is the lead authority within the Baptist Church?

It appears you’re willing to submit to an authority because someone tells you they are authoritative…

I am not talking about any old (found in the dictionary, hope it’s correct in this is context!) rules. But the true ones.
Oneness Pentecostals have the false ones, i.e.
Why start a new Church, prodigal? There are so many out there! Do you really think you could invent a new one? Not even the Reformators managed, actually not even the Restorationists around Joseph Smith junior!
By the way: The concept of the Baptist Church is older, about 200 years, to be accurate.
Ever heard of the Anabaptists (calling themselves the Third Branch of Reformation)?
I read through their confessions and creeds, as well as the ones of the Lutherans and the Reformed (Calvin, but mainly Zwingli). - It fits for me. These are my “rules” I believe in. These are the rules most Churches from the Reformed tradition follow in a greater or smaller extant. Theses rules are also followed by my pastor. He knows them, he studied theology, he practices them in his life, therefore he has authority.
If I studied theology, or became an elder, I would also have authority.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I am not talking about any old (found in the dictionary, hope it’s correct in this is context!) rules. But the true ones.
Oneness Pentecostals have the false ones, i.e.
Why start a new Church, prodigal? There are so many out there! Do you really think you could invent a new one? Not even the Reformators managed, actually not even the Restorationists around Joseph Smith junior!
By the way: The concept of the Baptist Church is older, about 200 years, to be accurate.
Ever heard of the Anabaptists (calling themselves the Third Branch of Reformation)?
I read through their confessions and creeds, as well as the ones of the Lutherans and the Reformed (Calvin, but mainly Zwingli). - It fits for me. These are my “rules” I believe in. These are the rules most Churches from the Reformed tradition follow in a greater or smaller extant. Theses rules are also followed by my pastor. He knows them, he studied theology, he practices them in his life, therefore he has authority.
If I studied theology, or became an elder, I would also have authority.

Okay, before the Anabaptists who had the authority over the ‘trues rules’?

How do you know the Baptist rules are the true rules over all other Churches?

Last, what if your pastor studied the wrong theology? Or, what happens when you have say three different people study theology and they all come up with different truths?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It fits for me.

Can you provide the scriptures telling us to find teachings/doctrines/beliefs that fit us individually?

Since you say, ‘It fits for me.’ Should everyone be looking for a Church that fits them? Is that really serving? It just sounds wrong to fit a theology to one’s lifestyle, as opposed to fitting a lifestyle to theology…

 

[Esdra]

Okay, before the Anabaptists who had the authority over the ‘trues rules’?

How do you know the Baptist rules are the true rules over all other Churches?

Last, what if your pastor studied the wrong theology? Or, what happens when you have say three different people study theology and they all come up with different truths?

I can ask you the very same question (Though I think I know already the answers. After 1100 posts here in CAF you know them by heart! ): LOL

How do you know the Catholic rules are the true rules over all other Churches?

Last, what if your pastor/bishop/pope etc. studied the wrong theology?

Can this not also happen in the CC? If someone studies, or even simpler, just is a Catholic, that these people come up different truths? - Or why do you think the CC (especially in traditional Catholic countries that have been Catholic for 1000ends of years) is so watered down? That people simply don’t stick to the rules of their Church?

Why do you think and are even so sure about that that there needs to be one truth that is true for all? - Have a look around! What do you see? One truth that is true for all and to that all stick? - No, brother, I sadly don’t see that. The world, the moral, is on the contrary, going even more and more down!