What does Daniel 8:13,14 mean?

[Richard_Kastner]

Yes, ACts 17:31 says he has a day… the day he will come again to judge the living and the dead… and Jesus will judge.
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.(the second coming of jesus christ) 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.
So the Lord will come AGAIN, and somehow people will be ‘taken’ and others ‘left’. They will be judged when he comes. Yes, at the second coming…

These verses are talking about the implimentation of the sentence from the judgement that is going on right now.

Judgement happened at the cross. John 12:31
Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” 33He said this to show *the kind of death he was going to die. *
He said it to show the kind of death… and he died on the cross:. 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out

Why would he have said Now is the time?
What do you think it means?

Who/what is being judged here?
Jn.12:31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

What about Matt. 27:
51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”
What does all this mean? why were they ressurected and went into the holy city?

To preach the gospel of Jesus and Him crucified for our sins.

Luke 23
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.f”
43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
44It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two.

why would the criminal be with Jesus in Paradise?
Please let me know. Sometimes i think it’s impossible that people can understand things differently when they are so clear. But it happens. SO please let me hear your understading of these texts in scripture. and answer the questions I have asked… as I have answered yours. ")

Luke was originally written in Greek which has no punctuation, so lets try that.
Luke 23
43And Jesus said unto him verily I say unto thee today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus is not promising the thief that He would be with Him in heaven on that day. What He is promising to the thief is that as he saw Him now humiliated, scourged, beaten, and bloody. As he saw Him this way He was still the Son of God and one day the thief would be with Him in paradise. We know this also because Jesus was not in heaven on that day.

Jn20:17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[benidict]

yes he was, and when he was talking to nicodemus he made a startling revelation about himself. also in what he told phillip when he met him. read his exchange with nicodemus very carefully in the kjv or the douwy rheims. very interesting. Richard your wrong. and again you show that Adventist really do not believe in the deity of Christ. thank you. :tiphat:

 

[barboza21]

Hebrews 8
1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Ok, so the earthly sanctuary is a type for the sanctuary which is in heaven. Consider what Ellen White says in The Great Controversy

So, at Jesus resurrection, He entered the first compartment to minister His blood. This was a beginning ministry and continued for 18 centuries until 1844 when Christ entered the second compartment, the most holy place to finish the work of judjement. This judjement will be completed when the sins of the repentant sinners are once and for all placed back on the originator of sin.

In White’s book she quotes Heb 6:19,20.

We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, (INNER sanctuary. WHERE? BEHIND the curtain.20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf.(HE has ENTERED on our behalf. He entered when he was crucified. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

Does that make sense?

 

[barboza21]

yes he was, and when he was talking to nicodemus he made a startling revelation about himself. also in what he told phillip when he met him. read his exchange with nicodemus very carefully in the kjv or the douwy rheims. very interesting. Richard your wrong. and again you show that Adventist really do not believe in the deity of Christ. thank you. :tiphat:

Hello there,

Could you specify here what you are referring to(nicodemus,and phillip)? I’m afraid i’m having a hard time.

Thanks much!

 

[barboza21]

These verses are talking about the implimentation of the sentence from the judgement that is going on right now.

Acts 17:31 isn’t ‘talking about the implimentation of the sentence from the judgement that is going on right now’
Acts 17:31 says There is a day set in which he will come to judge. people will believe since it was through Jesus that people believe, since God resurrected him already:

For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.

Jesus has already ressurected here, and scripture says there is a day that is already set. Thats what this is saying.
Is it not??

Who/what is being judged here?
Jn.12:31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Do you know what it means when it says the prince of this world will be cast out?
See

john 14:30: I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me,
(why doesn’t the prince have hold on Jesus?)
John 16:11: *and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. *
(why is he condemned?)

Earlier in JOhn 12 it says:
23Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified[Jesus will be glorified].
24I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds[speaking of Jesus here]]…
27“… what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour]which reason? would it not be to save us from our sins and glorify the Lord’s name since when God wins, the devil loses?]].
28Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again
[When Jesus dies, the devil loses. because the scriptures say that Jesus bought us at a high price. he BOUGHT us. WE are HIS now. and the devil is losing.]].”

Jn.12:31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out…
Jesus is going to die for us. the devil is going to be cast out.

To preach the gospel of Jesus and Him crucified for our sins.

I’m sorry. the people that resurrected right then and there went into the holy city “To preach the gospel of Jesus and Him crucified for our sins.” ? I don;t think people in Heaven need to be preached to…

Luke was originally written in Greek which has no punctuation, so lets try that.
Luke 23
43And Jesus said unto him verily I say unto thee today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus is not promising the thief that He would be with Him in heaven on that day. What He is promising to the thief is that as he saw Him now humiliated, scourged, beaten, and bloody. As he saw Him this way He was still the Son of God and one day the thief would be with Him in paradise. We know this also because Jesus was not in heaven on that day.

Jn20:17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So Jesus needed to say I’m telling you today… that you will --one day --be with me in paradise?
John 20:17 says that God had not yet ascended. True.

He didn’t until Acts 1:
9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
11… This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Jesus wasn’t in Heaven that day… yet he told the thief he would. Is Jesus a liar? or was it merely important that Jesus forgave him and like he told many others… tell the thief that his faith had saved him… and therefore He would be in heaven with Christ. Like those in Matt 27.
When Jesus resurrected, they did too. Jesus wouldn’t lie. I know you’re not saying that he’s a liar… right?

Awaiting you reply,

Cynthia.

PS Sorry it took me soooo long to reply. School has since started and now I have textbooks to read too… besides the bible. I hope you don’t think I forgot, or that i didn’t have an answer for you. i simply didn’t have the time to sit and read and evaluate. Have a blessed day!

 

[barboza21]

Ok, so the earthly sanctuary is a type for the sanctuary which is in heaven. Consider what Ellen White says in The Great Controversy

So, at Jesus resurrection, He entered the first compartment to minister His blood. This was a beginning ministry and continued for 18 centuries until 1844 when Christ entered the second compartment, the most holy place to finish the work of judjement. This judjement will be completed when the sins of the repentant sinners are once and for all placed back on the originator of sin.

Also, do you ever think about your church? I mean truly do think about it?
When i was twelve… I did. A lot. I used to ask God, why there were sooo many churches. I used to ask him why did people believe in Him differently. I couldn’t understand. I would ask him, am i in the church you want? How do I know if i’m in the right church?

I used to tell God that i was sure everyone else(protestants) thought they were in the right church too. I asked how protestants were so sure.and how I could be sure. For a year I asked Him. Little by little, he woke me up. Especialy when I met my the boyfriend… He’s Adventist. He would ask why I would go to church on Sunday. i didn’t know how to answer. that was a little over 2 years ago. It was because of him that I started studying…
I guess what Im tryng to say is that I wanted to be sure i was following God the right way. In His church.
Are you 100% sure that Adventism is correct? because i’m 1000% sure of the universal Church of Christ.

Well, I wonder how you see Ellen White. and the founders of your religion. I believe you guys are focused on the second coming. [PLEASE TELL ME IF IM WRONG. I DONT WANT TO ACCUSE YOUR RELIGION OF SOMETHING YOU ARE NOT. LIKE IVE HAD DONE TO ME. UNCOOL. ") ]]
He could come tonight. or in 30 minutes. True.
But your church was founded in ‘doing the math’ to figure out when Jesus would come again. I think what matters is that one is prepared. or trying their best to be prepared. its Not the actual WHEN that matters.

Daniel 8 13,14(the vision your founders focused on i=I believe) says

Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him,** “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled**—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?”

14He said to me, “**It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.” **

Thats why Miller ‘did the math’ and came up with 1840-something. Thats when he believed Jesus would come. He was wrong. Then he changed the day. Wrong again. Then it was said the date was right. the event was wrong. that it wasn’t jesus coming. it was his entrance into the 2nd compartment of the sanctuary.

but Daniel 8 16-17 says
And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.” 17As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.” not the time of the movement to the 2nd compartment.

I believe Adventists believe in sola scripture, correct?
the bible doesn’t say that God will be entering one complartment and then the second and so on…
Besides… the 2nd compartment in Heaven will be what? Inside the pearly gates?
Will the 1st compartment be outside the gates? how does a 1st and 2nd compartment work in heaven? Where does it say in the bible that there are 2 compartments?

what the bible does say is this:

acts 1: 6-7

So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7He said to them: “**It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. **

Does that make sense?

you know, the reason why I’m concerned is because last ‘Sabbath’ I went with my boyfriend to his Church. (im not afraid of assisting. All that is done is singing(worshiping) to God, and preaching about Christ…) the sabbath school was about stress… and how to control it. I thought that was weird. talking about stress as a biblical teaching… i dismissed it.
But when the actual sermon started… it was an invited guest. A doctor. he was almost giving a class… about cholesterol. about taking care of our health. we were both uncomfortable with the sermon being about health like this. we left in the middle.

It concerns me to know that happens. Its not the first time. Its happened before… at different church locations. At least once before.

It seems to me there is a lot of focus on health, and what to eat and what not to eat. a lot.

Do you agree with that?
Romans 14
1 Tim 4:4
Matt 15:10-11
not to mention Col 2:16

Please comment back. Sorry so long. Take your time ")

Awaiting your response.
Your sister in Christ.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Me

These verses are talking about the implimentation of the sentence from the judgement that is going on right now.

Acts 17:31 isn’t ‘talking about the implimentation of the sentence from the judgement that is going on right now’
Acts 17:31 says There is a day set in which he will come to judge. people will believe since it was through Jesus that people believe, since God resurrected him already:

For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.

Jesus has already ressurected here, and scripture says there is a day that is already set. Thats what this is saying.
Is it not??

Ok, since you choose this one let’s take a close look at it.
Acts17
31**Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world **in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Paul is here talking to the Greeks about the UNKNOWN GOD and he tells them that Jesus is that God. Now Jesus had died and risen years ago by now, but Paul says that the judgement day is still in the future. Right? (notice the emboldened)

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Me

Who/what is being judged here?

Jn.12:31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Do you know what it means when it says the prince of this world will be cast out?
See

john 14:30: I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me,
(why doesn’t the prince have hold on Jesus?)
John 16:11: and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
(why is he condemned?)

Earlier in JOhn 12 it says:
23Jesus replied, “The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified[Jesus will be glorified].
24I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds[speaking of Jesus here]]…
27“… what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour]which reason? would it not be to save us from our sins and glorify the Lord’s name since when God wins, the devil loses?]].
28Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again
[When Jesus dies, the devil loses. because the scriptures say that Jesus bought us at a high price. he BOUGHT us. WE are HIS now. and the devil is losing.]].”

Jn.12:31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out…
Jesus is going to die for us. the devil is going to be cast out.

Right, what is being judged here is Satan and the lusts of this world, not individual sinners.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Me

To preach the gospel of Jesus and Him crucified for our sins.

I’m sorry. the people that resurrected right then and there went into the holy city “To preach the gospel of Jesus and Him crucified for our sins.” ? I don;t think people in Heaven need to be preached to…

These people were resurrected out of their graves onto the earth not into heaven. They went into Jerusalem to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

Me

Luke was originally written in Greek which has no punctuation, so lets try that.
Luke 23
43And Jesus said unto him verily I say unto thee today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus is not promising the thief that He would be with Him in heaven on that day. What He is promising to the thief is that as he saw Him now humiliated, scourged, beaten, and bloody. As he saw Him this way He was still the Son of God and one day the thief would be with Him in paradise. We know this also because Jesus was not in heaven on that day.

Jn20:17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

So Jesus needed to say I’m telling you today… that you will --one day --be with me in paradise?
John 20:17 says that God had not yet ascended. True.

He didn’t until Acts 1:
9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
11… This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Jesus wasn’t in Heaven that day… yet he told the thief he would. Is Jesus a liar? or was it merely important that Jesus forgave him and like he told many others… tell the thief that his faith had saved him… and therefore He would be in heaven with Christ. Like those in Matt 27.
When Jesus resurrected, they did too. Jesus wouldn’t lie. I know you’re not saying that he’s a liar… right?

Awaiting you reply,

The scriptures are clear on this. It is doubtful that the thief and Jesus died on the same day, but even if they did Jesus had not yet risen to heaven three days after His death, so Jn.20:17 is not saying that Jesus would be in heaven on the same day as the thief. The comma in Luke 23:43 was misplaced. It should be
43And Jesus said unto him verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Changes the meaning doesn’t it?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

First, let me say barboza21 that you are like a breath of fresh air and I really enjoy our little dialogue. So many times I get jumped on by Catholics merely for telling them what I think the bible is saying. You don’t do that. You seem to be a true seeker and Jesus promises that if you ask you will recieve. If you seek you will find and if you knock the door will be opened to you. I will do my best to show you what the bible says.

Also, do you ever think about your church? I mean truly do think about it?
When i was twelve… I did. A lot. I used to ask God, why there were sooo many churches. I used to ask him why did people believe in Him differently. I couldn’t understand. I would ask him, am i in the church you want? How do I know if i’m in the right church?

I used to tell God that i was sure everyone else(protestants) thought they were in the right church too. I asked how protestants were so sure.and how I could be sure. For a year I asked Him. Little by little, he woke me up. Especialy when I met my the boyfriend… He’s Adventist. He would ask why I would go to church on Sunday. i didn’t know how to answer. that was a little over 2 years ago. It was because of him that I started studying…
I guess what Im tryng to say is that I wanted to be sure i was following God the right way. In His church.
Are you 100% sure that Adventism is correct? because i’m 1000% sure of the universal Church of Christ.

Let me give you a little testamony. I have not told this to many on this forum because as I said I have been jumped on in this forum, but I don’t thik that you would do that. So, When I got married 20 years ago I decided to go back to the CC. I had fallen away from the church, but now that I was married and going to have children I believed that they needed a spiritual foundation. I was going to church fairly regularly, but I must say the conviction that the CC was the one true church was not there. Then I started to pray what became known as “My little prayer” It was simply Lord show me what it is you want me to do with my life. Well I had been praying this prayer for about a year and about 11 years ago I was at Mass and I can only say that I was visited by the Holy Spirit. It says in 1Cor.12 that the Holy Spirit gives gifts and one of those gifts is the gift of knowledge. I believe He gave me that gift that day and the knowledge that He gave me was twofold #1) I was in the wrong church and #2) I had to keep the Sabbath day. Now as a Catholic I always thought that the Sabbath was Sunday, yet when the Spirit gave me this knowledge I knew immediately that I had to keep the Seventh Day Sabbath of the bible and through a series of miracles He led me to the front door of the Seventh Day Adventist church. You ask am I sure that this church is the true church? If I am to believe the Spirit of God and the way He has opened the bible to me I can think nothing else.

Well, I wonder how you see Ellen White. and the founders of your religion. I believe you guys are focused on the second coming. [PLEASE TELL ME IF IM WRONG. I DONT WANT TO ACCUSE YOUR RELIGION OF SOMETHING YOU ARE NOT. LIKE IVE HAD DONE TO ME. UNCOOL. ")

No we don’t want to be UNCOOL. Our name says what we focus on. Seventh Day Adventist. The Seventh day Sabbath of the bible and the soon return of Jesus.

He could come tonight. or in 30 minutes. True.
But your church was founded in ‘doing the math’ to figure out when Jesus would come again. I think what matters is that one is prepared. or trying their best to be prepared. its Not the actual WHEN that matters.

It is true that William Miller did focus on trying to predict the day of Jesus return and that as we all know was a mistake.
[/quote]

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Daniel 8 13,14(the vision your founders focused on i=I believe) says

Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him,** “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled**—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?”

14He said to me, “**It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.” **

Thats why Miller ‘did the math’ and came up with 1840-something. Thats when he believed Jesus would come. He was wrong. Then he changed the day. Wrong again. Then it was said the date was right. the event was wrong. that it wasn’t jesus coming. it was his entrance into the 2nd compartment of the sanctuary.

but Daniel 8 16-17 says
And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.” 17As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.” not the time of the movement to the 2nd compartment.

Ok, consider these vs.

Matt.24
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matt.24:14 says that the end will come after the Gospel is preached to the world Right?

But now look at
Rev14
6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

An angel flys in the midst of heaven. This heaven is obviosly the heaven where we live and he has the everlasting gospel to preach. Let me ask you, do you think this is talking about the same gospel that Matt24:14 is talking about. The answer of coarse is yes, well look at what the angel says is part of that end time gospel message “Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.” The hour of His judgement is come at the time the end time everlasting gospel is being preached to the world and that would be right now bar.

I believe Adventists believe in sola scripture, correct?
the bible doesn’t say that God will be entering one complartment and then the second and so on…
Besides… the 2nd compartment in Heaven will be what? Inside the pearly gates?
Will the 1st compartment be outside the gates? how does a 1st and 2nd compartment work in heaven? Where does it say in the bible that there are 2 compartments?

The earthly sanctuary was after the pattern that God showed to Moses of the sanctuary that is in heaven.
Ex25
8And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
9According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

This was comprised of the outer courtyard in which the altar of burnt offrings and the laver were. Inside were two compartments the holy place and the most holy place you can read about them in Heb.7-10

what the bible does say is this:
acts 1: 6-7
So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.

Does that make sense?

I’m not suure what you are driving at here

you know, the reason why I’m concerned is because last ‘Sabbath’ I went with my boyfriend to his Church. (im not afraid of assisting. All that is done is singing(worshiping) to God, and preaching about Christ…) the sabbath school was about stress… and how to control it. I thought that was weird. talking about stress as a biblical teaching… i dismissed it.
But when the actual sermon started… it was an invited guest. A doctor. he was almost giving a class… about cholesterol. about taking care of our health. we were both uncomfortable with the sermon being about health like this. we left in the middle.

It concerns me to know that happens. Its not the first time. Its happened before… at different church locations. At least once before.

It seems to me there is a lot of focus on health, and what to eat and what not to eat. a lot.

Do you agree with that?

Yes we do have a health message.

Romans 14
1 Tim 4:4
Matt 15:10-11
not to mention Col 2:16

Please comment back. Sorry so long. Take your time ")

Awaiting your response.
Your sister in Christ.

If you want me to comment on the scriptures you post her I can do that some other time. It’s getiing late and this post is too long already.

 

[benidict]

Hello there,

Could you specify here what you are referring to(nicodemus,and phillip)? I’m afraid i’m having a hard time.

Thanks much!

hi barboza. not a problem. when speaking with nicodemus, he made the following statement in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who IS in heaven. and sorry, wrong apostle. it was Nathaniel in John 1:48, Nathaniel, saith to him; whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said to him; Before that Phillip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. he was revealing his omni-presence, making a Claim to be God. i was simply pointing out to Richard, that Christ kept his promise to the thief on the cross, about seeing him that day in paradise. even though he had not gone to the father physically at that point, he was certainly there after his death, and proclaiming this victory at the same time in the nether world. by denying that Christ did not keep his promise to the thief, and changing the verse to meet a spurius doctrine,( that of soul sleep) there is a denial of Christ deity, and his Omni presence. Peace

 

[ryanoneil]

Ok, consider these vs.

Matt.24
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matt.24:14 says that the end will come after the Gospel is preached to the world Right?

But now look at
Rev14
6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

An angel flys in the midst of heaven. This heaven is obviosly the heaven where we live and he has the everlasting gospel to preach. Let me ask you, do you think this is talking about the same gospel that Matt24:14 is talking about. The answer of coarse is yes, well look at what the angel says is part of that end time gospel message “Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.” The hour of His judgement is come at the time the end time everlasting gospel is being preached to the world and that would be right now bar.

“Throught the whole world” is elsewhere used to denote the scope of Christianity’s presence in the Roman Empire.

**First, I give thanks to my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is heralded throughout the world. (Rom 1:8)

because of the hope reserved for you in heaven. Of this you have already heard through the word of truth, the gospel, that has come to you. Just as in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing, so also among you, from the day you heard it and came to know the grace of God in truth (Col 1:5-6)

provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister. (Col 1:23)**

Jesus also said in Mt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

Jesus was saying his words would be accomplished within the lifetime of some of his hearers (about 40 years). Both Matthew and Revelation are refering to judgment at the end of the Old Covenant Age.

**You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Mt 10:22-23)

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Mt 16:27-28)**

Please realize these verses (including Rev 14) were fulfilled in the first century at the judgment of Jerusalem and the Temple (architectural symbols of heaven and earth). This of course prefigures final judgment and the end of time.

 

[Roman_Korvinus]

The great horn is that of the single point. Zero Dimension.
I think the little horn is equal to the Staff of Aaron and Levi. The Cluster of grapes; Equal to that of Toroids and dimple spheres.
The 4 are that of the 4 platonic solids which are prepresented before the rhombic dodecahedron. The shape attributed for being at the center of the Anu; ether.

 

[benidict]

The great horn is that of the single point. Zero Dimension.
I think the little horn is equal to the Staff of Aaron and Levi. The Cluster of grapes; Equal to that of Toroids and dimple spheres.
The 4 are that of the 4 platonic solids which are prepresented before the rhombic dodecahedron. The shape attributed for being at the center of the Anu; ether.

please elaborate, in simple english for us who do not hold a degree in physics…LOL! i think i get what your trying to say, but im not the brightest bulb in the batch. Peace

 

[barboza21]

In White’s book she quotes Heb 6:19,20.

We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, (INNER sanctuary. WHERE? BEHIND the curtain.20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf.(HE has ENTERED on our behalf. He entered when he was crucified. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

Does that make sense?

Do you agree? I didn’t see your response. Maybe I missed it.

Me

Ok, since you choose this one let’s take a close look at it.
Acts17
31**Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world **in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Paul is here talking to the Greeks about the UNKNOWN GOD and he tells them that Jesus is that God. Now Jesus had died and risen years ago by now, but Paul says that the judgement day is still in the future. Right? (notice the emboldened)

I agree. the judgement day when Christ will come again.

So when you say ‘the implementation of the sentence from the judgement that is going on right now’ what judgement do you believe is going on right now?
(I got confused as to what we were discussing–since we both agree that this verse is talking about a judgement day that is still in the future.) In other words, Jesus is judging who? Us, the living? Already?

Me

Right, what is being judged here is Satan and the lusts of this world, not individual sinners.

Why is he being cast out? because Jesus was crucified then. With his death, he saved us, meaning he saved us from satan–therefore satan is ‘cast out’ of this world–he looses against Jesus.
Jesus says there is a judgement that starts now. and also at that now, is when satan is being cast out. Because upon his death he is glorified, and Jesus dominates satan…
Satan is not judged here. Because why would he? he’s been sentenced since forever. he’s satan…
therefore, the judgement spoken of here is of people, when Jesus is crucified. That;s why they were resurrected when Jesus was, and they went into the holy city and appeared to many people… (matt 27:52)

 

[barboza21]

Me
These people were resurrected out of their graves onto the earth not into heaven. They went into Jerusalem to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

No, they went into the Holy City. They didn’t remain on earth (to preach)… they APPEARED to people on Earth. and yes most likely preached. But they went into Heaven first.
Daniel 12:2’s prophecy says: Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth** will awake**: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
The point here is that they were awakened into everlasting lfe. Not into everlasting Earth.
think about it. If they resurrected from the dead, then they preached to those in Jerusalem as dead? Or alive? Will they die again? Doesn’t make sense to me. I doubt they were walking around as dead. so they were alive according to you. then what? lived another life. or went back to their tomb at the end of the day? Highly unlikely. Besides, scripture says they APPEARED… Like Jesus appeared to the disciples. People alive don;t appear to other people alive. they don’t appear at all. Right?

Me
[what I said…]
So Jesus needed to say I’m telling you today… that you will --one day --be with me in paradise?
John 20:17 says that God had not yet ascended. True.

He didn’t until Acts 1:
9After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
11… This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Jesus wasn’t in Heaven that day… yet he told the thief he would. Is Jesus a liar? or was it merely important that Jesus forgave him and like he told many others… tell the thief that his faith had saved him… and therefore He would be in heaven with Christ. Like those in Matt 27.
When Jesus resurrected, they did too. Jesus wouldn’t lie. I know you’re not saying that he’s a liar… right?

Awaiting you reply,

The scriptures are clear on this. It is doubtful that the thief and Jesus died on the same day, but even if they did Jesus had not yet risen to heaven three days after His death, so Jn.20:17 is not saying that Jesus would be in heaven on the same day as the thief. The comma in Luke 23:43 was misplaced. It should be
43And Jesus said unto him verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Changes the meaning doesn’t it?
To answer your question: YEs. If you write it that way, YES it does change the meaning. (and how do you know thats where the comma went?)
However, as I mentioned. it seems unnecessary to say, hey Im telling you today…In that case, Jesus said: And I tell you today, that you will be with me in Paradise.
He doesn’t say that you will be with me in Paradise ONE DAY. Of course you might say, well its unnecessary to say that. Its implied. AS i also tell you its unnecessary for Jesus to say I tell you today…
Either way, even if it does say it that way, then the point is that the thief will go to Paradise when Jesus is resurrected: like those that went up into the Holy City in Matt 27:52. Because since Jesus was resurrected, he has been judging those that die. As soon as they die. That’s why Matt 27:52 happened. That’s why he told that to the thief. and that’s why Paul says in Phil.

21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.(what could you possibly gain when you die? If you’re only going to be buried until the lord Jesus Christ comes again.) 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart (die) and be with Christ, (see that? or what do you think it means?)
which is better by far (obviously) ; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. (ALlve, so he can teach and guide them.)

Also, 2 Cor. 5:
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. WHY? 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. Away from our earthly body: ie ALIVE… and to be ‘home’ with God… because he knows that a person that dies is immediately judged by God…

Heb 9:27
27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment .

 

[Roman_Korvinus]

please elaborate, in simple english for us who do not hold a degree in physics…LOL! i think i get what your trying to say, but im not the brightest bulb in the batch. Peace

A single point is considered to be the Zero Dimension. This point is regarded as being a void to the container of all things. The first dimension is where this point becomes self aware and multiplies into two. Thus 2 points. The second dimension is three points and the thrid dimension 4. These are the 4 winds.

The seed or the zero dimension being the great horn of the he goat. This is symbolized by the Vesica Piscis. The source of most all religious symbols including the Jesus fish as well as the Pentagram, Cross of Lorain, almond, among others.

There is a process created by these 4 points or dimension create a number of toroids, expressed as tribes, cluter of grapes, almonds, fig and various other things. This toroid is recognized in the world of chemestry as the Anu. This Anu gives light to the 7 gold coins (thrice) and the 5 animals (thrice) in Numbers, as thier are 3 and 7 levels in it’s roatation, thus the law of 3 and 7. This Anu is fashioned as a dimple sphere, due to the coriolis effect. When the slipknot, or the knot of creation is recognized, the toroids develope a path and have the ability to mulitiply. Thus the alternating descrepency of the tribes in Numbers.

When the seed, or as electromagentics has proven, when the loagaithmic spiral of Phi and Pi fall out the bottom and curl back up, and in turn create a vortex, or toroid/dimple sphere. Thus a sacrafice is made. For indeed it is now a living thing. This trampled host is beat up by the other remaining toroids surrounding it.

Think what you want but I know I’m right. You forget the Gnostic were the first. These are part of Gnostic teachings, along with many other areas of science. This is the foundation on which the bible was wrote. For it is a reflection of the universe and creation.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

A single point is considered to be the Zero Dimension. This point is regarded as being a void to the container of all things. The first dimension is where this point becomes self aware and multiplies into two. Thus 2 points. The second dimension is three points and the thrid dimension 4. These are the 4 winds.

The seed or the zero dimension being the great horn of the he goat. This is symbolized by the Vesica Piscis. The source of most all religious symbols including the Jesus fish as well as the Pentagram, Cross of Lorain, almond, among others.

There is a process created by these 4 points or dimension create a number of toroids, expressed as tribes, cluter of grapes, almonds, fig and various other things. This toroid is recognized in the world of chemestry as the Anu. This Anu gives light to the 7 gold coins (thrice) and the 5 animals (thrice) in Numbers, as thier are 3 and 7 levels in it’s roatation, thus the law of 3 and 7. This Anu is fashioned as a dimple sphere, due to the coriolis effect. When the slipknot, or the knot of creation is recognized, the toroids develope a path and have the ability to mulitiply. Thus the alternating descrepency of the tribes in Numbers.

When the seed, or as electromagentics has proven, when the loagaithmic spiral of Phi and Pi fall out the bottom and curl back up, and in turn create a vortex, or toroid/dimple sphere. Thus a sacrafice is made. For indeed it is now a living thing. This trampled host is beat up by the other remaining toroids surrounding it.

Think what you want but I know I’m right. You forget the Gnostic were the first. These are part of Gnostic teachings, along with many other areas of science. This is the foundation on which the bible was wrote. For it is a reflection of the universe and creation.

The bible was written to manifest God’s plan of salvation found in Jesus Christ.

 

[barboza21]

First, let me say barboza21 that you are like a breath of fresh air and I really enjoy our little dialogue. So many times I get jumped on by Catholics merely for telling them what I think the bible is saying. You don’t do that. You seem to be a true seeker and Jesus promises that if you ask you will recieve. If you seek you will find and if you knock the door will be opened to you. I will do my best to show you what the bible says.

SOrry again for the delayed response. BUSY week with school… & I enjoy our talks too. No I’ve been jumped as well . ppl can be mean! but I know what it is like-- I hope I never do that…

Let me give you a little testamony. I have not told this to many on this forum because as I said I have been jumped on in this forum, but I don’t thik that you would do that. So, When I got married 20 years ago I decided to go back to the CC. I had fallen away from the church, but now that I was married and going to have children I believed that they needed a spiritual foundation. I was going to church fairly regularly, but I must say the conviction that the CC was the one true church was not there. Then I started to pray what became known as “My little prayer” It was simply Lord show me what it is you want me to do with my life. Well I had been praying this prayer for about a year and about 11 years ago I was at Mass and I can only say that I was visited by the Holy Spirit. It says in 1Cor.12 that the Holy Spirit gives gifts and one of those gifts is the gift of knowledge. I believe He gave me that gift that day and the knowledge that He gave me was twofold #1) I was in the wrong church and #2) I had to keep the Sabbath day. Now as a Catholic I always thought that the Sabbath was Sunday, yet when the Spirit gave me this knowledge I knew immediately that I had to keep the Seventh Day Sabbath of the bible and through a series of miracles He led me to the front door of the Seventh Day Adventist church. You ask am I sure that this church is the true church? If I am to believe the Spirit of God and the way He has opened the bible to me I can think nothing else.

Now, how are you so sure it was the Holy Spirit. Because, as you know I believe that Jesus founded the Church with the apostles and said not even hell will prevail against it. He also said he would give them the Holy Spirit to guide them and let them know what to do . and Jesus said I will be with you until the end of time–how? Holy Spirit… Anyway, basically he founded the church said NOTHING can bring it down… and scripture says :
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. I believe there is only one true church… DO you??

Well the bible says yes… so I kinda doubt that Jesus would found his church when he was on earth and then about 1800 years later, the holy spirit inspires other people to build another church with different teachings and the holy spirit as well would go along to people in the catholic church or other places and say, hey… I got another church for ya… you’re in the wrong place… As if the Holy Spirit was going against Jesus! Do you kind of see what I am trying to say? How would you justify this? How would you explain your Church and all others that were born in the last 6 or so centuries?.. when the catholic church was born much more earlier than that…

At times I think its amazing that I see it so clear but people don’t see the same thing I do–I just don’t get WHY… I’d love to hear your insight on this. (I know the topic keeps on changing ang the posts get larger… but If you don;t mind… I’d appreciate it. Take your time…Thanks…)

No we don’t want to be UNCOOL. Our name says what we focus on. Seventh Day Adventist. The Seventh day Sabbath of the bible and the soon return of Jesus.

Well I can try to explain to you about why we celebrate Eucharist on Sunday. I know you say you know since you were catholic once. but the bible talks about the change… has a lot to do with what this conversation started out with… (by the way, when you’re baptized in the Catholic Church, you know that… ‘sign’ of the baptism doesn’t go away–even if you leave the church? ") )

It is true that William Miller did focus on trying to predict the day of Jesus return and that as we all know was a mistake.

So since you know that… whats your thought on belonging to the church that was sort of built upon/around that mistake?