What does Daniel 8:13,14 mean?

[GaryTaylor]

Malachi also foretells His second advent, His coming for the execution of the judgment, in these words: “And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not Me, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 3:5. Jude refers to the same scene when he says, “Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds.” Jude 14, 15. This coming, and the coming of the Lord to His temple, are distinct and separate events.

 The coming of Christ as our high priest to the most holy place, for the cleansing of the sanctuary, brought to view in Daniel 8:14; the coming of the Son of man to the Ancient of Days, as presented in Daniel 7:13; and the coming of the Lord to His temple, foretold by Malachi, are descriptions of the same event; and this is also represented by the coming of the bridegroom to the marriage, described by Christ in the parable of the ten virgins, of Matthew 25.    
 In the summer and autumn of 1844 the proclamation, "Behold, the Bridegroom cometh," was given. The two classes represented by the wise and foolish virgins were then developed--one class who looked with joy to the Lord's appearing, and who had been diligently preparing to meet Him; another class that, influenced by fear and acting from impulse, had been satisfied with a theory of the truth, but were destitute of the grace of God. In the parable, when the bridegroom came, "they that were ready went in with him to the marriage." The coming of the bridegroom, here brought to view, takes place before the marriage. The marriage represents the reception by Christ of His kingdom. The Holy City, the New Jerusalem, which is the capital and representative of the kingdom, is called "the bride, the Lamb's wife." Said the angel to John: "Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife." "He carried me away in the spirit," says the prophet, "and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God." Revelation                                                                           21:9, 10. Clearly, then, the bride represents the Holy City, and the virgins that go out to meet the bridegroom are a symbol of the church. In the Revelation the people of God are said to be the guests at the marriage supper. Revelation 19:9. If guests, they cannot be represented also as the bride. Christ, as stated by the prophet Daniel, will receive from the Ancient of Days in heaven, "dominion, and glory, and a kingdom;" He will receive the New Jerusalem, the capital of His kingdom, "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." Daniel 7:14; Revelation 21:2. Having received the kingdom, He will come in His glory, as King of kings and Lord of lords, for the redemption of His people, who are to "sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob," at His table in His kingdom (Matthew 8:11; Luke 22:30), to partake of the marriage supper of the Lamb.  
 The proclamation, "Behold, the Bridegroom cometh," in the summer of 1844, led thousands to expect the immediate advent of the Lord. At the appointed time the Bridegroom came, not to the earth, as the people expected, but to the Ancient of Days in heaven, to the marriage, the reception of His kingdom. "They that were ready went in with Him to the marriage: and the door was shut." They were not to be present in person at the marriage; for it takes place in heaven, while they are upon the earth. The followers of Christ are to "wait for their Lord, when He will return from the wedding." Luke 12:36. But they are to understand His work, and to follow Him by faith as He goes in before God. It is in this sense that they are said to go in to the marriage.   
 In the parable it was those that had oil in their vessels with their lamps that went in to the marriage. Those who, with a knowledge of the truth from the Scriptures, had also the Spirit and grace of God, and who, in the night of their bitter trial, had patiently waited, searching the Bible for clearer light--these saw the truth concerning the sanctuary in heaven and the Saviour's change in ministration, and by faith they followed Him in His work in the sanctuary above. And all who through the testimony of the Scriptures accept the

same truths, following Christ by faith as He enters in before God to perform the last work of mediation, and at its close to receive His kingdom–all these are represented as going in to the marriage. - EW

This is right on the money. And is what I posted on on the other thread on Daniel.

 

[barboza21]

Here’s what you asked.
“Like you say in the next paragraph, Of course Jesus is God. Do you truly mean it Richard?” I can see no valid reason to ask this question. It has nothing to do with the posts and as far as I’m concerned is designed to cast doubt on my personal faith in my Savior. To be fair to you this may not have been your intention, but it sure came off that way to me. I would ask that you be a little more careful as to personal faith references.

Well, I don’t see how this has anything to do with a woman crushing Satan’s head.

Yes, If He used His divinity for anything, it would have invalidated His propitiation for us. IOW Satan would have yelled foul.

I’m having a hard time following this part. You do see that Jesus is calling death sleep don’t you? Another thing Jesus calls Lasarus forth out of the grave not down from heaven. And don’t you think that Lasarus would have said something about heaven and being in the presence of God? I think that I would have been a little miffed at being called out of God’s presence back down to this sinful earth. Well, the fact is Lasarus was never in heaven because he was dead.

I’m afraid to say I think I’ve lost you.
It is unfortunate, we had many things to discuss. Well I really hope it wasn’t something I said. If i really did insult you I am sorry. Wish you the best in your spiritual life.

May God Bless You

 

[barboza21]

Dan 7:13 - I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

“like the Son of man” = like one of us

In the above verse Jesus is going from the Holy to the Most Holy place in the heavenly sanctuary. God the Father and The Son come together to start the pre-advent judgment. (Rev 20:12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

We will be judged…(Jas 2:12) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. ( the 10 commandments).

written with love

Alright so… in the heavenly Sanctuary, where or what is the Holy and where is the Most Holy place?? There must be a distinction.
I guess up until 1844, Jesus was in the Holy place, which was I don’t know where. So afterward, He was in the Most Holy where He and the Father started a judgment.

What is this judgment? Who are they judging and why??

I’d love to hear your response. Thanks!

 

[benidict]

I’m afraid to say I think I’ve lost you.
It is unfortunate, we had many things to discuss. Well I really hope it wasn’t something I said. If i really did insult you I am sorry. Wish you the best in your spiritual life.

May God Bless You

I wouldnt say It was you he found insulting my friend… I will give you 3 guesses, who might have though. Truth can be painful for some. Peace

 

[benidict]

I must say. The disecction of these hard passages, by my Catholic Brothers/Sisters, has been most informative and enlightening. I hope this proves to some out there in internet land, that Catholics can, and do study and understand the Bible. Peace

 

[ryanoneil]

Judgment was initially fulfilled within Christ’s generation, as a result of recieving his kingdom when he ascended to heaven. I still don’t, and probably never will, understand the significance of 1844.

In otherwords, all the scripture cited in post #93 had been initially fulfilled in the first century. They may recapitulate in a final fulfillment at the end of time, but it would happen during the battle of Gog and Magog, from the Catholic perspective. We have been in the millenium since Christ Advent, death, resurrection, and ascension.

 

[barboza21]

I wouldnt say It was you he found insulting my friend… I will give you 3 guesses, who might have though. Truth can be painful for some. Peace

") Well I truly hope he didn’t think it was me. But its true what you say. Truth can be painful sometimes. This has happened to me before with other people. Although I wish they would continue to seek the truth, not stop writing or talking about it.
I really wish we were all united into one truth. Not only would there be less problems with the faith, but we would make Him happy. ")

 

[barboza21]

In otherwords, all the scripture cited in post #93 had been initially fulfilled in the first century. They may recapitulate in a final fulfillment at the end of time, but it would happen during the battle of Gog and Magog, from the Catholic perspective. We have been in the millenium since Christ Advent, death, resurrection, and ascension.

Hi.
I know what Dan 8 14 is saying
And he said to him: Unto evening and morning two thousand three hundred days: and the sanctuary shall be cleansed.
Ver. 14. Days. That is, six years and almost four months; which was the whole time from the beginning of the persecution of Antiochus till his death. (Challoner) — He began A. [in the year] 143, and died A. [in the year] 149, according to the era of Seleucus. (Haydock) — The temple was purified in the mean time. (1 Machabees i. 21. and vi. 16.) (Worthington) — Full days are specified. Sacrifice entirely ceased for three years, in the year 145. (Chap. vii. 25.) Sym. [Symmachus?] has 2,400, others 2,200, as quoted by St. Jerome. We know not whether the solar year of 365 days, or the lunar of 354, be meant.

But what about Dan 8:17?
*17 And he came and stood near where I stood: and when he was come, I fell on my face trembling, and he said to me: Understand, O son of man, for in the time of the end the vision shall be fulfilled.
*
Ver. 17. Man. So Ezechiel is usually styled, to shew that the human nature is different from that of angels, and would be greatly honoured by Jesus Christ, who takes this appellation. (Worthington) — Of the end, or determined. This shall take place, (Calmet) but the period is distinct. (Grotius ver. 26.)

If this happened until the death of Antiochus, its not literally saying that this vision is about the end of time, or that it will be fulfilled then, is it??

It sound like you know about this stuff, so I am hoping you can help ")

thanks.

 

[ryanoneil]

Hi.
I know what Dan 8 14 is saying
And he said to him: Unto evening and morning two thousand three hundred days: and the sanctuary shall be cleansed.
Ver. 14. Days. That is, six years and almost four months; which was the whole time from the beginning of the persecution of Antiochus till his death. (Challoner) — He began A. [in the year] 143, and died A. [in the year] 149, according to the era of Seleucus. (Haydock) — The temple was purified in the mean time. (1 Machabees i. 21. and vi. 16.) (Worthington) — Full days are specified. Sacrifice entirely ceased for three years, in the year 145. (Chap. vii. 25.) Sym. [Symmachus?] has 2,400, others 2,200, as quoted by St. Jerome. We know not whether the solar year of 365 days, or the lunar of 354, be meant.

But what about Dan 8:17?
*17 And he came and stood near where I stood: and when he was come, I fell on my face trembling, and he said to me: Understand, O son of man, for in the time of the end the vision shall be fulfilled.
*
Ver. 17. Man. So Ezechiel is usually styled, to shew that the human nature is different from that of angels, and would be greatly honoured by Jesus Christ, who takes this appellation. (Worthington) — Of the end, or determined. This shall take place, (Calmet) but the period is distinct. (Grotius ver. 26.)

If this happened until the death of Antiochus, its not literally saying that this vision is about the end of time, or that it will be fulfilled then, is it??

It sound like you know about this stuff, so I am hoping you can help ")

thanks.

It “points” to end of time. The initial fulfillment in Antiochus time refers to the end his persecution and defiling of the Temple. That became a type for Christ’s time, when the “day of the Lord” brought judgment on the unbelieving Old Covenant world (Jerusalem and the Temple in particular). The end time of the Old Covenant age at the dawning of the New Covenant. That event became a type that points to the “day of the Lord” at the very end of time and the dawn of eternity.

Does that make sense?

The inintial fulfillment of prophecy (past events) themselves become prophecy that points to a greater more substantial fulfillment. It happens all the time in scripture.

 

[barboza21]

It “points” to end of time. The initial fulfillment in Antiochus time refers to the end his persecution and defiling of the Temple. That became a type for Christ’s time, when the “day of the Lord” brought judgment on the unbelieving Old Covenant world (Jerusalem and the Temple in particular). The end time of the Old Covenant age at the dawning of the New Covenant. That event became a type that points to the “day of the Lord” at the very end of time and the dawn of eternity.

Does that make sense?

The inintial fulfillment of prophecy (past events) themselves become prophecy that points to a greater more substantial fulfillment. It happens all the time in scripture.

The day of the lord brought judgement? What do you mean? Sorry I am used to talking about scripture in Spanish…It became a type for christ’s time?

 

[BTTG]

In otherwords, all the scripture cited in post #93 had been initially fulfilled in the first century. They may recapitulate in a final fulfillment at the end of time, but it would happen during the battle of Gog and Magog, from the Catholic perspective. We have been in the millenium since Christ Advent, death, resurrection, and ascension.

If we are in the millennium now how do you explain:

(Rev 20:5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

(Rev 20:6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

(Rev 20:7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

thank you

written with love

 

[BTTG]

Alright so… in the heavenly Sanctuary, where or what is the Holy and where is the Most Holy place?? There must be a distinction.
I guess up until 1844, Jesus was in the Holy place, which was I don’t know where. So afterward, He was in the Most Holy where He and the Father started a judgment.

What is this judgment? Who are they judging and why??

I’d love to hear your response. Thanks!

Sorry I have not had time to respond, will respond soon

written with love

 

[BTTG]

It “points” to end of time. The initial fulfillment in Antiochus time refers to the end his persecution and defiling of the Temple. That became a type for Christ’s time, when the “day of the Lord” brought judgment on the unbelieving Old Covenant world (Jerusalem and the Temple in particular). The end time of the Old Covenant age at the dawning of the New Covenant. That event became a type that points to the “day of the Lord” at the very end of time and the dawn of eternity.

Does that make sense?

The inintial fulfillment of prophecy (past events) themselves become prophecy that points to a greater more substantial fulfillment. It happens all the time in scripture.

With due respect, as I mentioned in post #76 and #81, Dan 8:14, cannot be 2,300 literal days, it has to be prophetic time of 2,300 years.

 

[BTTG]

It “points” to end of time. The initial fulfillment in Antiochus time refers to the end his persecution and defiling of the Temple. That became a type for Christ’s time, when the “day of the Lord” brought judgment on the unbelieving Old Covenant world (Jerusalem and the Temple in particular). The end time of the Old Covenant age at the dawning of the New Covenant. That event became a type that points to the “day of the Lord” at the very end of time and the dawn of eternity.

Does that make sense?

The inintial fulfillment of prophecy (past events) themselves become prophecy that points to a greater more substantial fulfillment. It happens all the time in scripture.

With due respect, as I mentioned in post #76 and #81, Dan 8:14, cannot be 2,300 literal days, it has to be prophetic time of 2,300 years.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

riginally Posted by barboza21
Hi.
I know what Dan 8 14 is saying
And he said to him: Unto evening and morning two thousand three hundred days: and the sanctuary shall be cleansed.
Ver. 14. Days. That is, six years and almost four months; which was the whole time from the beginning of the persecution of Antiochus till his death. (Challoner) — He began A. [in the year] 143, and died A. [in the year] 149, according to the era of Seleucus. (Haydock) — The temple was purified in the mean time. (1 Machabees i. 21. and vi. 16.) (Worthington) — Full days are specified. Sacrifice entirely ceased for three years, in the year 145. (Chap. vii. 25.) Sym. [Symmachus?] has 2,400, others 2,200, as quoted by St. Jerome. We know not whether the solar year of 365 days, or the lunar of 354, be meant.

But what about Dan 8:17?
17 And he came and stood near where I stood: and when he was come, I fell on my face trembling, and he said to me: Understand, O son of man, for in the time of the end the vision shall be fulfilled.

Ver. 17. Man. So Ezechiel is usually styled, to shew that the human nature is different from that of angels, and would be greatly honoured by Jesus Christ, who takes this appellation. (Worthington) — Of the end, or determined. This shall take place, (Calmet) but the period is distinct. (Grotius ver. 26.)

If this happened until the death of Antiochus, its not literally saying that this vision is about the end of time, or that it will be fulfilled then, is it??

It sound like you know about this stuff, so I am hoping you can help ")

thanks.

**With due respect, as I mentioned in post #76 and #81, Dan 8:14, cannot be 2,300 literal days, it has to be prophetic time of 2,300 years.

written with love**

 

[BTTG]

Barboza21 stated:
know what Dan 8 14 is saying
And he said to him: Unto evening and morning two thousand three hundred days: and the sanctuary shall be cleansed.
Ver. 14. Days. That is, six years and almost four months; which was the whole time from the beginning of the persecution of Antiochus till his death. (Challoner) — He began A. [in the year] 143, and died A. [in the year] 149, according to the era of Seleucus. (Haydock) — The temple was purified in the mean time. (1 Machabees i. 21. and vi. 16.) (Worthington) — Full days are specified. Sacrifice entirely ceased for three years, in the year 145. (Chap. vii. 25.) Sym. [Symmachus?] has 2,400, others 2,200, as quoted by St. Jerome. We know not whether the solar year of 365 days, or the lunar of 354, be meant.

But what about Dan 8:17?
17 And he came and stood near where I stood: and when he was come, I fell on my face trembling, and he said to me: Understand, O son of man, for in the time of the end the vision shall be fulfilled.

Ver. 17. Man. So Ezechiel is usually styled, to shew that the human nature is different from that of angels, and would be greatly honoured by Jesus Christ, who takes this appellation. (Worthington) — Of the end, or determined. This shall take place, (Calmet) but the period is distinct. (Grotius ver. 26.)

If this happened until the death of Antiochus, its not literally saying that this vision is about the end of time, or that it will be fulfilled then, is it??

It sound like you know about this stuff, so I am hoping you can help ")

thanks.

**Response - If this prophecy was already fulfilled during that time period then who is the “little horn” in Dan. 8:9-13,

written with love**

 

[Protestant101]

They obviously didn’t believe that Jesus was comming in 1844 because He didn’t. Some fell away and either started or joined other denominations. Others saw that because Jesus did not come did not negate the fact of the prophecy. So with prayer and more study they came to the correct conclusion that the day of judgement was starting in heaven.

Well said Richard; almost 100% correct. I would just add that no Seventh-day Adventist ever believed the 1844 prophecy of Wm Miller. Miller was never a Seventh-day Adventist. However, that would not negate some of his other teachings from the Bible which have been very helpful to many people around the world.

 

[benidict]

Well said Richard; almost 100% correct. I would just add that no Seventh-day Adventist ever believed the 1844 prophecy of Wm Miller. Miller was never a Seventh-day Adventist. However, that would not negate some of his other teachings from the Bible which have been very helpful to many people around the world.

And this is because there WERE no Seventh Day Adventist until after Millers failed prophecy. However, it was a sizable number of his followers who formed the SDA after the great dissapointment. Peace

 

[benidict]

") Well I truly hope he didn’t think it was me. But its true what you say. Truth can be painful sometimes. This has happened to me before with other people. Although I wish they would continue to seek the truth, not stop writing or talking about it.
I really wish we were all united into one truth. Not only would there be less problems with the faith, but we would make Him happy. ")

I have been corrected by my Catholic brothers and sisters on this forum many times. (and a few Mormons as well, when discussing their faith.) I am thankful for this. Im not going to pick up my marbles and go home, simply because someone called me to task. I wish we were all united in One Truth also. And I believe at some point that will happen. Read Romans 11. It deals with the Jews and their reconciliation. It is a great comfort to me for the future. Peace

 

[Protestant101]

And this is because there WERE no Seventh Day Adventist until after Millers failed prophecy. However, it was a sizable number of his followers who formed the SDA after the great dissapointment. Peace

Well; actually, they were not Miller’s followers. Like many good Roman Catholics, many Millerites sought truth, and looked unto Jesus as the Author and Finisher of their Faith. Discovery of Bible truth can take time and that’s really all that can be said. The ones who separated from the Millerites were from all denominations, including your’s.