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Protestant101
Guest
I can Amen that one!
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benidict
Guest
I can agree with you on this my friend. they were from all different denominations. However, the SDA movement would never have gotten off the ground without the visions of E.G. White. She brought in doctrines that were unique only to them. without her writings, and backing from one of Millers close associates, the SDA would never have existed. PeaceWell; actually, they were not Miller’s followers. Like many good Roman Catholics, many Millerites sought truth, and looked unto Jesus as the Author and Finisher of their Faith. Discovery of Bible truth can take time and that’s really all that can be said. The ones who separated from the Millerites were from all denominations, including your’s.
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benidict
Guest
And I am glad you are still here. I was getting worried for your health. I thank God you are doing well.
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Protestant101
Guest
Well now that’s actually not true what you just posted about Ellen G White. The Adventist Church has never been dependant upon her for their doctrinal formation and development. It would be interesting to hear your reference for that comment.I can agree with you on this my friend. they were from all different denominations. However, the SDA movement would never have gotten off the ground without the visions of E.G. White. She brought in doctrines that were unique only to them. without her writings, and backing from one of Millers close associates, the SDA would never have existed. Peace
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benidict
Guest
Im sure I can find some references for you. In the mean time, I am interested in your views on who the founder or founders of the SDA movement are. Who were the principles involved in laying the groundwork for this organization? Peace
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Richard_Kastner
Guest
Hi bar
No there is nothing that you said that has offended me. The fact is that I believe that I have come down with a touch of pneumonia and I’m having a hard time maintaining a vertical position much less wrap my brain around some of the questions you pose. I think that we were wandering too far off the thread coarse anyway. BTTG seems to have a handle on what this prophecy is all about. Perhaps you could direct your queries to him. I will in the future attempt to bring an overview of the prophecies of Dan 2,7,8,9 and how they tie into the book of Rev.and are germaine right up until the present day. Which I believe looking at bible indicators is the end time for planet earth. I have some healing to do first tho. BTW why would you think that because I stopped posting on this forum for a time that I stopped seeking the truth? Just wondering.
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benidict
Guest
I will pray for your healing my friend. Please get better soon.
Peace to you and health.
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benidict
Guest
For about 20 years, the Adventist movement consisted of a small loosely knit group of people who came from many churches whose primary means of connection and interaction was through James White’s periodical, The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald. They embraced the doctrines of the Sabbath, the heavenly sanctuary interpretation of Daniel 8:14, conditional immortality and the expectation of Christ’s premillennial return. Among its most prominent figures were Joseph Bates, James White, and Ellen G. White. Ellen White came to occupy a particularly central role; her many visions and spiritual leadership convinced her fellow Adventists that she possessed the gift of prophecy.wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_founded_the_Seventh_Day_Adventist_Church
O.K. It was NOT just E.G. White. We have Joseph Bates, a High Level Mason. We have James White. The husband of Ellen, and an Arian to boot. And we have the completion of this trinity, Ellen. who claimed the gift of prophecy. Am I getting warmer as to the founder or founders of the Adventist church? If not my friend, then please educate me. Peace
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ryanoneil
Guest
Throughout the OT there are different example of the day of the Lord as a symbol for God’s judgment on sin. So, Jeremiah and Ezekiel interpreted the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem as the judgment of God on Israelite unfaithfulness. They saw the invasion as the beginning, or even part of, the day of the Lord (Jer 30:7; Ezek 30:3).
John the Baptist said "to the crowds who came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?” (Lk 3:7). And Jesus said You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna? Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! (Mt 23:33-37).
This is “a” day of the Lord when God’s judgment came on the wicked generation who rejected the Messiah. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple end the Old Covenant age wich was in already in transition to the New Covenant age that had started.
It is a “shadow” of things to come. They point to something greater. Abel’s sacrifice is a type and Christ’s Sacrifice is the antitype. Same with the sacrifice of Issac. Melchisedech is a type and Christ is the antitype. The manna in the desert pointed to the bread of life brought by Christ. The same is true of the judgment of the Old Covenant world in Christ’s generation. It points to judgment of the entire world at the end of the New Covenant age.
When Jesus decribes events in Mt 24-25 his first reference is to things that will happen to his generation, using apocalyptic language. God’s judgment will visit Jerusalem and the Temple after Christ takes his seat at the right hand of power, ending the age.
Jesus left the temple area and was going away, when his disciples approached him to point out the temple buildings. He said to them in reply, “You see all these things, do you not? Amen, I say to you, there will not be left here a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.” As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately and said, “Tell us, when will this happen, and what sign will there be of your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Mt 24:1-3)
The events of 70 AD were historical events in the life of the nation that was interpreted as a visit from Christ, but not Christ’s second coming in glory. Mt 24-25 was initially fulfilled in the first century, but his warning points to a more significant fulfillment at the end of time when he comes in glory.
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ryanoneil
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We don’t assume the first resurrection is a bodily one on earth. They are the “souls” of those who were beheaded and the Apostles, who rule with Christ in heaven. We don’t assume any of this is happening on earth. Christ reigns from heaven. Don’t forget this is apocalyptic language. Resurrection is used to describe the spritual reconstitution, renewal, or rejuvenation of God’s people throught the entire bible. The first resurrection is being taken to heaven by God and being given a ruling role in the kingdom. That is why they will never experience the second death, which is eternal seperation from God in the lake of fire (after the final judgment). The second resurrection is when all are raised to be judged at the final judgment. The second death is damnation.
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ryanoneil
Guest
I submit to you that it does not have to be prophetic time of 2,300 years. There are many end times throughout the bible. This was talking about one time in particular before Christ. Daniel’s desolation was already in the past when Christ claimed it and applied it to his generation. There are four empires between Daniel’s lifetime and the Messianic Kingdom. They are all in the past.
I recognize the Church as the earthly evidence of Christ’s heavenly kingdom. It has been here since Christ’s Advent. Even though the Messiah’s kingdom can’t be seen in it’s full glory now, it will when Christ brings heaven down at the end of time.
Peace
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BTTG
Guest
Let’s examine this a little more in depth. In Dan. 8:26 , when Daniel says " the vision of the evenings and mornings", is this the vision of the 2,300 days?
Are the seventy weeks in Dan. 9:24, literal (about 1.5 years) , or prophetic ( 490 years) ?
written with love
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BTTG
Guest
I could not explain in better then this person…
God had shown Moses the pattern for the structure by opening heaven for him to see the heavenly sanctuary. There were actually two of them, the earthly sanctuary which was made according to the heavenly pattern which Moses saw, and the heavenly sanctuary which he copied.
Generally, that structure had two compartments separated by a heavy curtain. Every day the priest went into the first, or holy apartment, to sprinkle blood of the sacrifices. This blood symbolically carried the sins of the people and constituted a record of their sins as it was sprinkled before the veil. They would come, confess their sins over the animal, slay the animal, and then the priest would catch the blood, take it in to sprinkle it before that veil. The sinner, then, having confessed his sins over the animal and killed it with his own hand, had a record made of that sin through the sprinkled blood. The lamb represented Jesus and the sinner was showing his faith in Christ who would come later to die for his sin. Day after day through the year as the people sinned, they came with their lambs to confess their sins. Day after day the priest would catch the blood and sprinkle it in the Holy Place of the sanctuary.
For a full year the record of their sins was made through that sprinkled blood, but once a year on the Day of Atonement there was a service called the Cleansing of the Sanctuary and that record was then blotted out. It was considered the very day of judgment because anyone was cut off on that day who had not confessed their sins sometime through the year before the close of that Day of Atonement. To this day it is a most solemn yearly observance of the Jewish people. On that day the high priest cast lots on two goats, one for the Lord and one for the scape goat. On the Lord’s goat, representing Christ, he confessed all the sins of Israel, then killed the animal and carried the blood through the veil into the Most Holy Place. After sprinkling the blood on the mercy seat between the cherubims, he came out to put his hands on the scape goat’s head. That service beyond the veil had made atonement for or cleansed away the sins of the people which had accumulated through the year. The scape goat represented Satan; the guilt he would have to share and all the sins of the people was finally rolled back on him for punishment.
Well, you say, what does all this have to do with our prophecy? Alright, remember that the sanctuary was to be cleansed after 2300 days or years. That period ended, as we have learned, in 1844, but there was no earthly sanctuary at that time, of course. It had been destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. and was never rebuilt. But don’t forget that there were two sanctuaries, the one in heaven which served as a pattern and the earthly one which Moses had made from copying that heavenly sanctuary. And since there was no earthly sanctuary in 1844, this cleansing could only apply to the heavenly sanctuary.
Someone might say, “Well why should the things in heaven need any cleansing?” Well, it’s a good question, friends, and it has a good Bible answer too. Let’s notice something now in Hebrews 8:1, 2, “Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.” Now notice when Jesus went back to heaven, friends, he went as our high priest right into that heavenly throne room or into that sanctuary above. He went as our intercessor. Notice how it was foreshadowed by the earthly type which Moses had built for the Jews. We read in Hebrews 9 from verse 2 and onward describing that earthly one which had been copied from the true sanctuary in heaven, “For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; and over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercy seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of his people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:”
to be continued in next post
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BTTG
Guest
I could not explain it better then this person
God had shown Moses the pattern for the structure by opening heaven for him to see the heavenly sanctuary. There were actually two of them, the earthly sanctuary which was made according to the heavenly pattern which Moses saw, and the heavenly sanctuary which he copied.
Generally, that structure had two compartments separated by a heavy curtain. Every day the priest went into the first, or holy apartment, to sprinkle blood of the sacrifices. This blood symbolically carried the sins of the people and constituted a record of their sins as it was sprinkled before the veil. They would come, confess their sins over the animal, slay the animal, and then the priest would catch the blood, take it in to sprinkle it before that veil. The sinner, then, having confessed his sins over the animal and killed it with his own hand, had a record made of that sin through the sprinkled blood. The lamb represented Jesus and the sinner was showing his faith in Christ who would come later to die for his sin. Day after day through the year as the people sinned, they came with their lambs to confess their sins. Day after day the priest would catch the blood and sprinkle it in the Holy Place of the sanctuary.
For a full year the record of their sins was made through that sprinkled blood, but once a year on the Day of Atonement there was a service called the Cleansing of the Sanctuary and that record was then blotted out. It was considered the very day of judgment because anyone was cut off on that day who had not confessed their sins sometime through the year before the close of that Day of Atonement. To this day it is a most solemn yearly observance of the Jewish people. On that day the high priest cast lots on two goats, one for the Lord and one for the scape goat. On the Lord’s goat, representing Christ, he confessed all the sins of Israel, then killed the animal and carried the blood through the veil into the Most Holy Place. After sprinkling the blood on the mercy seat between the cherubims, he came out to put his hands on the scape goat’s head. That service beyond the veil had made atonement for or cleansed away the sins of the people which had accumulated through the year. The scape goat represented Satan; the guilt he would have to share and all the sins of the people was finally rolled back on him for punishment.
Well, you say, what does all this have to do with our prophecy? Alright, remember that the sanctuary was to be cleansed after 2300 days or years. That period ended, as we have learned, in 1844, but there was no earthly sanctuary at that time, of course. It had been destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D. and was never rebuilt. But don’t forget that there were two sanctuaries, the one in heaven which served as a pattern and the earthly one which Moses had made from copying that heavenly sanctuary. And since there was no earthly sanctuary in 1844, this cleansing could only apply to the heavenly sanctuary.
Someone might say, “Well why should the things in heaven need any cleansing?” Well, it’s a good question, friends, and it has a good Bible answer too. Let’s notice something now in Hebrews 8:1, 2, “Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.” Now notice when Jesus went back to heaven, friends, he went as our high priest right into that heavenly throne room or into that sanctuary above. He went as our intercessor. Notice how it was foreshadowed by the earthly type which Moses had built for the Jews. We read in Hebrews 9 from verse 2 and onward describing that earthly one which had been copied from the true sanctuary in heaven, “For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; and over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercy seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of his people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:”
to be continued… next post
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BTTG
Guest
continued from post #133
Now, friends, this is merely repeating what we’ve said before describing how the priest went every day into the first compartment and only the high priest once a year into the most holy on the Day of Atonement. But notice that all of this was just a type. It said this signified actually the way into the holiest of all." Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices that could not make him that did the service perfect, . . . which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, . . . . But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Hebrews 9:9-12. Oh, friends, this is a beautiful picture of that heavenly sanctuary, and how Jesus went there to be our high priest and took his own blood instead of the blood of animals as they did here in the earthly services.
Now we’re prepared to read verses 22-24 of Hebrews 9. “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.” Now friends, that plainly says that the heavenly things did need cleansing but with better sacrifices than those used in the earthly, and that better sacrifice was the blood of Christ Himself.
But why did the heavenly need any cleansing at all? For the simple reason that the record of sin is there, just as the record had been in the earthly through the sprinkled blood. But where is the record of sin to be made in heaven? Notice Revelation 20:12. “And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Yes, friends, you’ll be judged according to the record of your life in the books of heaven and that examination will be made before Christ returns. In every court case there are two phases of judgment , the investigative and the executive. The investigative is when the evidence is considered and the executive is when the sentence is actually carried out. We are now led to the startling fact that the cleansing of that heavenly sanctuary began in 1844 at the end of the 2300 year prophecy. Ever since that time the investigative judgment has been going on in heaven. Sins will be blotted from the books and every case will be settled before Jesus comes again. Look at Revelation 22:11, 12 to confirm that. “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still. . . . And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” Notice, that this decree goes forth just before Jesus’ return. Every case is settled, having been determined out of the books.
Now here’s the way Daniel describes that heavenly court scene, friends, and how it’s all going to be done from the books. You and I will not be there in person when our judgment takes place because it must be decided before Jesus returns. After all, when He comes back, we’ve found that the righteous are going to be caught up and rewarded immediately. The wicked are going to be slain; so the judgment has to be determined before He comes. Now here’s the way it’s described in Daniel 7: 9, 10. “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool; his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and then thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.”
Here we see pictured the great judgment scene when the life record of every soul must be examined. The angels will be the witnesses. You’ll not be there in person but the judgment takes place on the basis of the books. In verse 13 is brought to view the lawyer who’ll be there to represent you if your sins have been blotted out. “Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.” What a picture this is, friends, and it’s taking place now, according to prophecy.
the thoughts, but not the writing of BTTG
Now, friends, this is merely repeating what we’ve said before describing how the priest went every day into the first compartment and only the high priest once a year into the most holy on the Day of Atonement. But notice that all of this was just a type. It said this signified actually the way into the holiest of all." Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices that could not make him that did the service perfect, . . . which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, . . . . But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." Hebrews 9:9-12. Oh, friends, this is a beautiful picture of that heavenly sanctuary, and how Jesus went there to be our high priest and took his own blood instead of the blood of animals as they did here in the earthly services.
Now we’re prepared to read verses 22-24 of Hebrews 9. “And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.” Now friends, that plainly says that the heavenly things did need cleansing but with better sacrifices than those used in the earthly, and that better sacrifice was the blood of Christ Himself.
But why did the heavenly need any cleansing at all? For the simple reason that the record of sin is there, just as the record had been in the earthly through the sprinkled blood. But where is the record of sin to be made in heaven? Notice Revelation 20:12. “And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Yes, friends, you’ll be judged according to the record of your life in the books of heaven and that examination will be made before Christ returns. In every court case there are two phases of judgment , the investigative and the executive. The investigative is when the evidence is considered and the executive is when the sentence is actually carried out. We are now led to the startling fact that the cleansing of that heavenly sanctuary began in 1844 at the end of the 2300 year prophecy. Ever since that time the investigative judgment has been going on in heaven. Sins will be blotted from the books and every case will be settled before Jesus comes again. Look at Revelation 22:11, 12 to confirm that. “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still. . . . And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.” Notice, that this decree goes forth just before Jesus’ return. Every case is settled, having been determined out of the books.
Now here’s the way Daniel describes that heavenly court scene, friends, and how it’s all going to be done from the books. You and I will not be there in person when our judgment takes place because it must be decided before Jesus returns. After all, when He comes back, we’ve found that the righteous are going to be caught up and rewarded immediately. The wicked are going to be slain; so the judgment has to be determined before He comes. Now here’s the way it’s described in Daniel 7: 9, 10. “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool; his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and then thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.”
Here we see pictured the great judgment scene when the life record of every soul must be examined. The angels will be the witnesses. You’ll not be there in person but the judgment takes place on the basis of the books. In verse 13 is brought to view the lawyer who’ll be there to represent you if your sins have been blotted out. “Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.” What a picture this is, friends, and it’s taking place now, according to prophecy.
the thoughts, but not the writing of BTTG
R
ryanoneil
Guest
The two-horned ram represents the combined kingdom of the Medes and Persians, destroyed by Alexander’s Hellenistic empire. This vision is interested only in the Seleucid dynasty, which emerged from the dissolution of Alexander’s empire. The other three kingdoms that grew out of Greece were the Ptolemaic kingdom of Egypt, the Kingdom of Pergamon in Asia Minor, and Macedon, but they are not in focus in this vision. Out of the Seluecid dynasty came a little horn Antiochus IV.
This vision is about the Jews being victorious over the Selucids.
490 years is not literal. It is an approximation of time.
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ryanoneil
Guest
This happened when Christ ascended to heaven. Not in 1844.
Heb 9:23
Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified by these rites, but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these.
24
For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf.
25
Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own;
26
if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the age to take away sin by his sacrifice.
It does not say Jesus waited to enter for any period of time. The high priests went into the Holy of Holies year after year. Christ did it once. The end of the age is the final stretch of the Old Covenant era, which was ready to vanish away (Heb 8:13). That age ended when the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.
Heb 9:23
Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified by these rites, but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these.
24
For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf.
25
Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own;
26
if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the age to take away sin by his sacrifice.
It does not say Jesus waited to enter for any period of time. The high priests went into the Holy of Holies year after year. Christ did it once. The end of the age is the final stretch of the Old Covenant era, which was ready to vanish away (Heb 8:13). That age ended when the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.
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BTTG
Guest
Ok, Let’s take the 490 years first. I do not understand how it can be an “approximate time” as you comment, when the bible states it is 70 weeks. The time frame has to be either 70 literal weeks, or 490 years. With due respect, to use an “approximate time” is adding to what the bible does not indicate. Considering the start of the prophecy ( Dan. 9:25) " from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem ( 457 BC) until Messiah the Prince (27 AD) there shall be seven weeks and sixty two weeks". This period in itself is longer then a 70 week literal time.
written with love
B
BTTG
Guest
Reasons why Antiochus IV cannot be the little horn in Dan 7 and 8.
“a little horn [a horn which started small, NIV], which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land”. There is no evidence in history that Antiochus IV waxed exceedingly great towards south (Egypt), east (Greece) and pleasant land ( Judea/Syria). So the horn started out little but became exceedingly great, or big. As you saw in the passage, the size was an indication of its influence and power.
In Daniel 8, the ram is described as “great” (v.4), the goat that followed was “very great” and the horn that grew from littleness became “exceeding great”. Compared to Medo-Persia and then Greece, Antiochus was not great at all,certainly not exceedingly great. His father, Antiochus III, is barely a blip on the screen of history, yet he was much more successful than his son in holding back the advance of the Romans. Antiochus IV was a repeated looser faced with the rising power of the developing Roman Empire.
Alexander was called 'great" and you stated Antiochus IV would be the “exceeding great”. Who was more powerful Alexander or Antiochus IV? I believe it was Alexander.
Just three years after the desecration (168 BC) by Antiochus, the conservative Jews “cleansed” or restored the temple at Jerusalem with the building of a new altar. The problem is that this cleansing did not happen after even half of 2300 literal days and clearly not 2300 years.
In Dan 8:12 - scripture reads " he did all this and prospered" - the “he” being the little horn. If the he is talking about Antiochus IV, how did he prosper. I believe Antiochus IV did commit evil things to the Jews, but after his accomplishment he died, he didn’t prosper.
written with love
R
ryanoneil
Guest
Jeremiah’s prophecy of a Babylonian captivity of seventy years was an approximate time. It was not literal in the least bit. It only lasted 59 years from 597 BCE until 538 BCE. But it was a round number signifying the complete passing away of the existing generation.
However, Daniel is meditating on Jeremiah’s number because he still sees the conditions of exile existing during the persecution of Antiochus. So, Daniel extends Jeremiah’s number to seventy weeks of years. This is just as much an approximation as Jeremiah’s original number. And Daniel’s seven times seventy years characterizes the Jewish victory over the Seleucids as the fulfillment of the prophecy. But just as Daniel extended Jeremiah, Jesus extended Daniel to include his time. These are approximations.
The ultimate point I’m trying to make is: in order for futurist’s number to add up they have to insert a gap into the middle of (Dan 9:26) or the next verse. This is a gross adding of time to what the bible does not indicate. There is no indication of a gap between the first and second advent of the Messiah. There is no gap indicated between the 69th and 70th weeks. This is a preconcieved notion that is not there and all the previous number figuring is thrown out the window between the 69th and 70th week.
Do you see my point?
- Status