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fish90
Guest
Just curious, what is everyone’s opinion on affirmative action?
Am I a bad Catholic if I oppose affirmative action and/or restitution?
Am I a bad Catholic if I oppose affirmative action and/or restitution?
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stringbeanduck
Guest
I say give the job to the person who’s most qualified for it. Just because a person’s black, gay, or Arab doesn’t mean they’re entitled to a job.
po18guy
Well-known member
My ancestors were forcefully colonized by a foreign power. Some were carried off to slavery in a foreign nation. They were treated as inferior and many were put to death when they protested. My ancestors were forced to adopt the language of their oppressors, forced to change their clothing and even their social customs. To this day, they are viewed as inferior and suffer from both covert and overt discrimination. It would appear that I need affirmative action in order to be treated fairly, but I do not qualify. Why? I’m Scotch/Irish.
Discrimination is discrimination, no matter the color.
Discrimination is discrimination, no matter the color.
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fish90
Guest
I agree fully with your statements.
Why are we taught to agree with affirmative action and are taught to fell bad if we disagree, if it is so wrong? Is not every group in America been mistreated in this country? Is easing of costs to the poor and disadvantaged who meet criteria considered charity not affirmative action?
Why are we taught to agree with affirmative action and are taught to fell bad if we disagree, if it is so wrong? Is not every group in America been mistreated in this country? Is easing of costs to the poor and disadvantaged who meet criteria considered charity not affirmative action?
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fulbert4605
Guest
Affirmative action first reminds me of senior year in high school. In Intensive Writing class we wrote all sorts of different essays. Now was time for writing a persuasive essay. In order to help prepare for this we broke off into debate groups in the classroom. One of the topics we debated was affirmative action. When it came time to debate affirmative action we all just looked at each other. No one knew what affirmative action was; the teacher had to explain it.
Now, this high school that i went to was one of those high schools that was 4-star or 5-star, i don’t remember which. But we got all sorts of honors and awards for high test scores in math, english, science, the social studies, and star #5 might have been good attendance.
When affirmative action is discussed it is usually in the context of a political news program, which i dare say hardly any kids ever watch. And even at that, usually slanted to the political left. To answer the question posed right above my post, the media is mainly controlled by the liberals and since they have such a large megaphone, they have the luxury of being able to manipulate public perception.
My personal viewpoint? i am unabashedly opposed to affirmative action. i don’t care if i am called insensitive, close-minded, etc. for believing the most qualified person should get the job.
As far as a Catholic outlook, affirmative action is a step towards Communism and the Church does not look highly upon Communism.
Now, this high school that i went to was one of those high schools that was 4-star or 5-star, i don’t remember which. But we got all sorts of honors and awards for high test scores in math, english, science, the social studies, and star #5 might have been good attendance.
When affirmative action is discussed it is usually in the context of a political news program, which i dare say hardly any kids ever watch. And even at that, usually slanted to the political left. To answer the question posed right above my post, the media is mainly controlled by the liberals and since they have such a large megaphone, they have the luxury of being able to manipulate public perception.
My personal viewpoint? i am unabashedly opposed to affirmative action. i don’t care if i am called insensitive, close-minded, etc. for believing the most qualified person should get the job.
As far as a Catholic outlook, affirmative action is a step towards Communism and the Church does not look highly upon Communism.
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Drawmack
Guest
First of all restitution and affirmative action have nothing to do with one another.
As for restitution, I would like anyone to explain to me why anyone deserves money for what happened to their great-great-great-grand parents?
As for affirmative action, I need to preface this by stating that I got into college because of affirmative action because I was a high school drop out.
There is nothing affirmative about affirmative action. If you place a quota which states that I have to hire x number of people that meet criteria y then everyone will always wonder if any one who meets criteria y got their position because they are qualified or because I had to meet a quota. This is divisive by nature!
You cannot make society race-blind by forcing us to consider race – that is simply self-evident.
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perfectpeach
Guest
I believe affirmative action is an attempt to keep blacks and other minorities “in their place.” Keep them victims. It is one step forward, but two steps back.
Instead of this, we should teach people that EVERYONE will be discriminated against. For some it will be race, age, weight, religion, monetary status. But instead of falling victims to this discrimination and hate, we should rise above it. Yes there will be people who will not give jobs or college positions because of race (or age, weight, religion) but instead of stooping to their level and crying about it, find someone who will. Rise above it. Beat them at their own game.
I am white, but my children are minorities. I will teach them better values than to support something like affirmative action. I cannot wait for the day where we start viewing others as apart of the human race and not the black race or white race… We are all humans. We just have different skin tones.
Instead of this, we should teach people that EVERYONE will be discriminated against. For some it will be race, age, weight, religion, monetary status. But instead of falling victims to this discrimination and hate, we should rise above it. Yes there will be people who will not give jobs or college positions because of race (or age, weight, religion) but instead of stooping to their level and crying about it, find someone who will. Rise above it. Beat them at their own game.
I am white, but my children are minorities. I will teach them better values than to support something like affirmative action. I cannot wait for the day where we start viewing others as apart of the human race and not the black race or white race… We are all humans. We just have different skin tones.
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maryjk
Guest
Which is why I think twice when I see a non-white doctor.
Did this black doctor make it into medical school because he was black? Did SHE make it in because she was the only female to apply? When you go to a white, male, you know he most likely got in because of good grades and test scores.
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Drawmack
Guest
Really, I guess that you are unaware that my white brother-in-law medical doctor is a high-school drop out so he got into college because of affirmative action too.Which is why I think twice when I see a non-white doctor.
Don’t misunderstand me, he is an awesome doctor – I’m just pointing out that affirmative action is not always based on race and gender it is based on any under represented population.
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Affirmative Action is, by definition, legalized discrimination.
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rpp
Guest
Succint and correct.
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fish90
Guest
Perfect Response for me.
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Porkchop2
Guest
My husband is in law enforcement, and some of the people are hired due to affirmative action…they “get in” with much lower scores, and experience because they are of a different color or gender. My husband refuses to work with them, because they are less qualified-which means during a life and death situation on the street, my husband would have to “carry” them, and therefore, HIS life would be in danger, because he could never trust the underqualified person who was hired only on the basis of gender or skin color/affirmative action.
Also, due to a lawsuit many years ago, when a list comes out for a particular job opening, the department MUST hire a certain percentage of women FIRST, and then go through the men. So, the women might not be fully qualified, but the department needs to fill its quota by law. Then, you have a bunch of law enforcement officials who have no respect for the lower qualifying persons due to affirmative action.
It can become such a mess! Also, a lot of the cities in southern CA hire by affirmative action, and if you call the city for something, the person working there is so unqualified, and so uneducated, it gets super frustrating.
I am all for hiring those who are qualified, regardless of gender or color.
Also, due to a lawsuit many years ago, when a list comes out for a particular job opening, the department MUST hire a certain percentage of women FIRST, and then go through the men. So, the women might not be fully qualified, but the department needs to fill its quota by law. Then, you have a bunch of law enforcement officials who have no respect for the lower qualifying persons due to affirmative action.
It can become such a mess! Also, a lot of the cities in southern CA hire by affirmative action, and if you call the city for something, the person working there is so unqualified, and so uneducated, it gets super frustrating.
I am all for hiring those who are qualified, regardless of gender or color.
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LisaA
Guest
I find an amazing irony in the entire concept of affirmative action. In areas of our life where it REALLY doesn’t matter (games or sports) the thought of affirmative action is laughable. Now why don’t they demand that a basketball team include short chubby white males or a football team include slender Asians? After all these are underrepresented populations in those endeavors! The OUTRAGE!!! There are probably short chubby white males who dreamed of being starring center for the Celtics!
OTOH where it IS a life or death matter such as the post above regarding law enforcement (or firefighting or medical school) we are told that we must accept those who cannot pass the tests, execute the physical requirements or even shoot straight because they are female or minority.
It is ridiculous. I would love to have some affirmative action proponent 'splain to me why this concept cannot be used in sports but must be used when my life is at risk.
Lisa A
OTOH where it IS a life or death matter such as the post above regarding law enforcement (or firefighting or medical school) we are told that we must accept those who cannot pass the tests, execute the physical requirements or even shoot straight because they are female or minority.
It is ridiculous. I would love to have some affirmative action proponent 'splain to me why this concept cannot be used in sports but must be used when my life is at risk.
Lisa A
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musicality
Guest
Disclaimer: I’m a white, middle class male. (Isn’t it terrible that I even feel the need to say that? )
Here’s my view on affirmative action:
Affirmative action should be in place for entrance into college (or other educational institutions). HOWEVER, one’s race should NEVER be a factor in determining the potential of an individual to succeed in an educational institution.
Affirmative action should be based on one’s socioeconomic status. Schools have been using race as a flawed indicator of socioeconomic status. It is true that statistically, minorities are more likely to fall into a lower socioeconomic category, but schools should not be using this fact to automatically give preference to minority students.
Now, the question becomes why use socioeconomic status rather than race? Students who grow up in poor neighborhoods and go to schools with little funding are very likely to have received an education that is not comparable to the education that someone at an expensive private school has received. Schools should weigh the students aptitude by taking into account the opportunities that they were given throughout their education. Race is not a good or fair indicator of these opportunities.
All that being said, I do not believe that affirmative action belongs in the work place–the job/promotion should go to the most qualified and hardest working candidate, no exceptions.
)Here’s my view on affirmative action:
Affirmative action should be in place for entrance into college (or other educational institutions). HOWEVER, one’s race should NEVER be a factor in determining the potential of an individual to succeed in an educational institution.
Affirmative action should be based on one’s socioeconomic status. Schools have been using race as a flawed indicator of socioeconomic status. It is true that statistically, minorities are more likely to fall into a lower socioeconomic category, but schools should not be using this fact to automatically give preference to minority students.
Now, the question becomes why use socioeconomic status rather than race? Students who grow up in poor neighborhoods and go to schools with little funding are very likely to have received an education that is not comparable to the education that someone at an expensive private school has received. Schools should weigh the students aptitude by taking into account the opportunities that they were given throughout their education. Race is not a good or fair indicator of these opportunities.
All that being said, I do not believe that affirmative action belongs in the work place–the job/promotion should go to the most qualified and hardest working candidate, no exceptions.
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Drawmack
Guest
I dropped out of high-school in tenth grade, when I applied to college they couldn’t even ask me to take the SAT because of affirmative action. Granted, I have a degree that I achieved with good marks so I could have gotten in anyway. However, the seats in that college were limited. Why should I have been guaranteed admittance because I dropped out of high school?
This is the problem with affirmative action. You want real affirmative action – hold the public school system to a higher, better established standard. Level the playing field – do not adjust the length of the baseline.
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manualman
Guest
I can see both sides. Being a suburban white boy, err, 38 year old geezer, it grates on me to think that my own government has established programs that give preference to certain people purely because they have darker skin than me.
But as a consultant, I’ve also been in the room with powerful and wealthy men who speak their mind amongst underlings without fear. I’ve heard the N word, ‘ragheads’, wetbacks, spics… every racial slur you can think of.
The fact is that a large amount of the wealth of this country is controlled by old white guys who, when their guard is down, are still pretty darn racist.
How DO we work at fixing this? The Affirmative Action people think justice is served when the normal racial injustice is at least partially offset by institutional injustice in the opposite direction. The right wing folks think we should just close our eyes and hope the whole problem goes away. Neither is very productive, I fear.
I think we should have an affirmative action program that runs differently. In civil service tests, disadvantaged groups should be given preference when the TIE against others. That, at least addresses the problem that is created when lower standards create MORE of an atmosphere of contempt for the minority that was “helped.” But this isn’t enough help. AA should also be provided in the form of neighborhood and financial need scholarships to college. Focus on opening OPPORTUNITIES to those traditionally discriminated against, not handouts.
In any case, an AA program that, for example, admits an Obama daughter to an Ivy League school over a white coal miner’s daughter with higher scores is an outrage by any measure.
But as a consultant, I’ve also been in the room with powerful and wealthy men who speak their mind amongst underlings without fear. I’ve heard the N word, ‘ragheads’, wetbacks, spics… every racial slur you can think of.
The fact is that a large amount of the wealth of this country is controlled by old white guys who, when their guard is down, are still pretty darn racist.
How DO we work at fixing this? The Affirmative Action people think justice is served when the normal racial injustice is at least partially offset by institutional injustice in the opposite direction. The right wing folks think we should just close our eyes and hope the whole problem goes away. Neither is very productive, I fear.
I think we should have an affirmative action program that runs differently. In civil service tests, disadvantaged groups should be given preference when the TIE against others. That, at least addresses the problem that is created when lower standards create MORE of an atmosphere of contempt for the minority that was “helped.” But this isn’t enough help. AA should also be provided in the form of neighborhood and financial need scholarships to college. Focus on opening OPPORTUNITIES to those traditionally discriminated against, not handouts.
In any case, an AA program that, for example, admits an Obama daughter to an Ivy League school over a white coal miner’s daughter with higher scores is an outrage by any measure.
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royal_archer
Guest
Affirmative action in its current implementation is pure racism / sexism.
I have been through several sensitivity classes and I would like to share my perspective of why people who support this do so. . . know thy opposition.
They say that all people have equal cognitive and other work related abilities regardless of genetics but some groups of people have experienced institutional racism/sexism to the point that it has impacted their very culture. Such people are less capable as a result of their environment. If we can break those cycles these people will eventually be able to acheive what white males have achieved. They believe the under achieving student is only under acheiving because of their cultural environment. They seem to believe the negative impact of putting a less qualified person in a possition is a necesary evil to level the playing field. They do not believe that the person from those protected groups can make it on their own.
Now my opinion.
I am all for giving someone a chance to sink or swim. For instance the colleges who have open enrollment but still have higher standards for who graduates. (a lot of people flunk out but everyone has a chance). I have had opportunities where someone took a chance. (I didn’t get paid a lot but I got a chance to prove myself.) This is why I enjoy giving opportunities to young workers who do not have the training or experience but have the spark of potential.
I have been through several sensitivity classes and I would like to share my perspective of why people who support this do so. . . know thy opposition.
They say that all people have equal cognitive and other work related abilities regardless of genetics but some groups of people have experienced institutional racism/sexism to the point that it has impacted their very culture. Such people are less capable as a result of their environment. If we can break those cycles these people will eventually be able to acheive what white males have achieved. They believe the under achieving student is only under acheiving because of their cultural environment. They seem to believe the negative impact of putting a less qualified person in a possition is a necesary evil to level the playing field. They do not believe that the person from those protected groups can make it on their own.
Now my opinion.
I am all for giving someone a chance to sink or swim. For instance the colleges who have open enrollment but still have higher standards for who graduates. (a lot of people flunk out but everyone has a chance). I have had opportunities where someone took a chance. (I didn’t get paid a lot but I got a chance to prove myself.) This is why I enjoy giving opportunities to young workers who do not have the training or experience but have the spark of potential.
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royal_archer
Guest
my opinion continued - -Glass ceilings:
Now there is a lot of talk about glass ceilings and they do exist for a variety of reasons. There are also what I like to call the glass rungs. Those are the entry level jobs. These are the jobs that anyone could do (with a minimum qualification set) and there is little risk of people failing in those jobs. These are the types of jobs that are ripe for affirmative action. This is where people get assigned to fill a quota with out negatively impacting the organization. Now for the person who does not qualify for AA support, these jobs are invisible. They can not compete for them and they therefore have to figure out a way to jump that rung and go for the higher rungs. So now those with out support have busted their backs to get to the second and third tier rungs and many of them have been filtered out so you are left with a very skilled group. Mean while those who got the entry level jobs have been on easy street since no one is expecting much out of them but they do get a promotion here and there.
Eventually there is an opening for a job on the forth rung. Those who have been sheltered with government support are now facing those who have been fighting on their own for years. But at this level things are different, the jobs come with more responsibility and more risk if the person fails. At this level a company can not afford having an unqualified person. At this point the balance shifts in favor of a person who had made it on their own regardless of their personal appearance. Meanwhile the person who has become used to things comming easy will find themselves in an environment they are not prepared for. This is where they perceive the glass ceiling in that everything they had done that brought them success early in their carreer seems to not be working.
The solution: give everyone an opportunity but don’t facilitate sub par performance.
Now there is a lot of talk about glass ceilings and they do exist for a variety of reasons. There are also what I like to call the glass rungs. Those are the entry level jobs. These are the jobs that anyone could do (with a minimum qualification set) and there is little risk of people failing in those jobs. These are the types of jobs that are ripe for affirmative action. This is where people get assigned to fill a quota with out negatively impacting the organization. Now for the person who does not qualify for AA support, these jobs are invisible. They can not compete for them and they therefore have to figure out a way to jump that rung and go for the higher rungs. So now those with out support have busted their backs to get to the second and third tier rungs and many of them have been filtered out so you are left with a very skilled group. Mean while those who got the entry level jobs have been on easy street since no one is expecting much out of them but they do get a promotion here and there.
Eventually there is an opening for a job on the forth rung. Those who have been sheltered with government support are now facing those who have been fighting on their own for years. But at this level things are different, the jobs come with more responsibility and more risk if the person fails. At this level a company can not afford having an unqualified person. At this point the balance shifts in favor of a person who had made it on their own regardless of their personal appearance. Meanwhile the person who has become used to things comming easy will find themselves in an environment they are not prepared for. This is where they perceive the glass ceiling in that everything they had done that brought them success early in their carreer seems to not be working.
The solution: give everyone an opportunity but don’t facilitate sub par performance.
- Status