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Serap
Guest
I would like to understand this concept better.
This is related to the division of the CC and Luther.
This is related to the division of the CC and Luther.
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gunner437
Guest
Hi Serap,
The way it was explained to me by a LCMS Lutheran Pastor was that “We do not do good works to make us Christians. We do good works because we are Christians”.
The way it was explained to me by a LCMS Lutheran Pastor was that “We do not do good works to make us Christians. We do good works because we are Christians”.
It is very much related to the division within the western Church, which started with the Reformation. It is probably the central issue of the Reformation, from a Lutheran perspective.
The Augsburg Confession states: *“Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for 2] Christ’s sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. 3] This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight. Rom. 3 and 4.” *
By this statement, Lutherans, citing Paul’s writings, confess that by grace through faith in Christ, and not by works, we are justified before God. We further confess that good works necessarily must follow faith, or it is a dead faith, and not a saving faith.
Again, from The Augsburg Confession:
Article VI: Of New Obedience.
1] Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God’s will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification 2] before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things, say: We are unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. The same is also taught by 3] the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone.
Jon
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pablope
Guest
Here is a link that explains both the CC and Protestant perspective:
Go the one that says “Salvation and Justification:”
chnetwork.org/Journal.html
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Juliebug108
Guest
Agh…this is completely where it falls apart for me. So, good works must necessarily follow faith, otherwise one’s faith is dead…but good works aren’t necessary for salvation???…how are good works not contributing to our salvation if they are the evidence of our true faith?! It seems completely contradictory.
Peace and blessings,
Julie
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Juliebug108
Guest
I agree with this statement. But…doing good works because we are Christians implies that good works are a byproduct of true Christian faith…without good works, the Bible tells us that our faith is dead. Other people have stated that faith without good works is an “empty” faith.
How then would good works NOT be necessary in salvation?
Grace of Faith → true faith → good works → salvation
Grace of faith–> no good works → empty/dead faith → no salvation
The Lutheran church is ridiculous about this matter…
Peace and blessings,
Julie
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Hiskid1973
Guest
Works do contribute as they are applied in the rewards process…We don’t work for the reward, we work out of a response of His love working through us…Here is where the works are judged…In I Cor. 3. The “works” themselves are not the “salvic” part that Christ’ died for…We could repent and choose Christ, then die in a car wreck the next day our flesh body to the grave our spirit in His presence…
…how are good works not contributing to our salvation if they are the evidence of our true faith?! It seems completely contradictory.
Peace and blessings,
Julie
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
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Barbkw
Guest
Backseat driving - arm chair quarterbacking Christians. All talk and no action.
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Hiskid1973
Guest
We’re either hot, lukewarm or cold…Lukewarm is a scary place to live…
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Serap
Guest
don’t be mean!!! No one was asking you to insult them.
back on topic please…ignore this person’s mean spirit.
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Juliebug108
Guest
“His love working through us”…in other words, we do good works by cooperating with God’s grace as the Holy Spirit works within us. **What if we do not cooperate? What If we choose to ignore that we are commanded by Christ to do good works? Do we have true faith? **
Here’s what Jesus had to say about that:
Jesus said: “But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous” (Luke 14:13-14).
Jesus said: “I tell you the truth, he said, this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth, but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on” (Luke 21:1-4).
Perhaps the most clear indication that we will be judged by our works is in Matthew 25: 31-46
Jesus said:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, **‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
**
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ***‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.***”
In other areas of the Bible:
1 John 3:17-18.
17 If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need** but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.**
19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And** this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ,* and to love one another as he commanded us.*** 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
I think that is pretty clear.
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Serap
Guest
and this is why Luther had an issue with the CC view…b/c of scripture?
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Hiskid1973
Guest
Do we have true faith?..Our those weak in faith or immature still saved ?
Sheep vrs. Goats…He says depart…He didn’t know them…He knows who are His sheep and who is not…**
[/quote]
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Juliebug108
Guest
PS - I know Paul is really important and wrote an awful lot of the New Testament…but when it comes down to it, Jesus’ words and the words of Peter and John (and the other apostles who walked with Christ before his death and resurrection) take precedence in my mind.
That is not to say that Paul’s writing contradict Jesus’ teaching, but they present another part of the picture. Too many protestants choose to emphasize Paul, and conveniently ignore the more important part, which is Christ’s command to do good to others!
Peace and blessings,
Julie
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Juliebug108
Guest
Luther for much of his time as an Augustinian monk never felt that he could be sure of his salvation…He never felt that he could DO enough. I believe that his emphasis on faith alone grew out of his own deep misunderstanding of the doctrine of justification of the CC.
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Hiskid1973
Guest
Who are sheep , who are the goats…Does He know who are His whether they are weak or immature?
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Juliebug108
Guest
Weak in faith, or being immature in faith are different from having DEAD or EMPTY faith. If we know God’s command to do good, and we ignore it…if we know that we are sinning, and we sin anyway…are we saved?
That is a defiance of God, and would be evidence of a lack of faith, and evidence of not loving God or cooperating with his grace! How could we be saved then? The Bible says we could not…except through having faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, and holding the great commandments:
“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
I think this is a great quote for this debate: “An indifference to God leads to an indifference to evil.” - Pope Benedict XVI
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icamay
Guest
I still hold on to my 9th grade European History teacher’s lesson. Don’t know why I paid more attention that day than most, but I clearly remember that the works Luther had issue with was the sale of indulgences to wealthy parishioners by greedy priests.
Now that the RCC has reformed this, I often wonder where Luther would attend mass?
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Juliebug108
Guest
God knows EVERYTHING.
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Juliebug108
Guest
Great point!
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