What does Faith Without Works mean?

[Hiskid1973]

Weak in faith, or being immature in faith are different from having DEAD or EMPTY faith. If we know God’s command to do good, and we ignore it…if we know that we are sinning, and we sin anyway…are we saved?

That is a defiance of God, and would be evidence of a lack of faith, and evidence of not loving God or cooperating with his grace! How could we be saved then? The Bible says we could not.

I know a few that really struggle with besetting sin…There is a difference from a struggler and
someone with a dead faith…Christian in name only.There are hot, lukewarm and cold, sheep/goats around us all…I know you know all this…It’s Christ who saves not the “work”

 

[chypmonk]

I would say that you have caught us at a bad time, Catholics that is.

Catholics will say to Protestants that one is not saved by works but they don’t really believe that.

I mean officially the Church teaches that works done outside of the Mystical Body, the Church= in Christ, are of no use to salvation.

But when the same Catholic will speak to a “Feeneyite” and not a Protestant, he will say if the person lives a good life (works) he will be saved because his works show his desire, usually called “Baptism” of Desire, even if they never acknowledged Jesus as Lord and savior or even reject him as a Jew or a Islamic do… Basically they are saying that a person can earn Grace by being good (works).

So how one is saved isn’t very clear for a majority of Catholics, it is debated often on CAF. Some say you can be saved outside the Church; some say you can’t; some debate what constitutes a member of he Church. Is partial membership enough? Does partial membership even exist?

So as I said, you caught us at a bad time, the past 60 years or so this has not been clear.

 

[Barbkw]

don’t be mean!!! No one was asking you to insult them.

back on topic please…ignore this person’s mean spirit.

I’m mean? IMO, faith without works is a person who talks the talk and doesn’t walk the walk. I insulted no one, I gave my opinion.

You’re comment however concerning my opinion, was rude and mean spirited.

 

[Juliebug108]

I know a few that really struggle with besetting sin…There is a difference from a struggler and
someone with a dead faith…Christian in name only.There are hot, lukewarm and cold, sheep/goats around us all…I know you know all this…It’s Christ who saves not the “work”

The difference with sin is if we are truly repentant or not. Repentance in itself could be considered an act or work of true faith. Struggling is normal and to be expected of all believers. We are not talking sin here though…we are talking about indifference to doing works as commanded by Christ.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Serap]

I still hold on to my 9th grade European History teacher’s lesson. Don’t know why I paid more attention that day than most, but I clearly remember that the works Luther had issue with was the sale of indulgences to wealthy parishioners by greedy priests.

Now that the RCC has reformed this, I often wonder where Luther would attend mass?

Yeah you’re right about that.

However, Luther still had an issue that Purgatory even existed. He may never have gone to the extent of reforming though.

 

[Hiskid1973]

The difference with sin is if we are truly repentant or not. Repentance in itself could be considered an act or work of true faith. Struggling is normal and to be expected of all believers. We are not talking sin here though…we are talking about indifference to doing works as commanded by Christ.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

If someone is unconcerned then it goes back to if the person has been reborn in the Spirit.
Works open up a slippery slope…People living fearful whether they have enough on the list.
How many works is enough? Did that sin now erase the good I did …

 

[chypmonk]

Do we have true faith?..Our those weak in faith or immature still saved ?
Sheep vrs. Goats…He says depart…He didn’t know them…He knows who are His sheep and who is not…

A human faith will not save you. It must be the theological Divine gift of Faith ( which is a gift=grace). We receive this gift (grace) in Baptism. If one puts no obstacles to this Divine gift of Faith then an immature faith, such as an infant receive, which is often called the habit of Faith, is enough for salvation. When the child grows there is a time of discernment (age? debatable) there he/she should make an act of explicate faith in the basics: Trinity, Jesus as Lord and savior…the Nicene Creed and no “will of opposition” to all the Church teaches. This will save you provided you don’t wreck it with a serious sin. It really isn’t that hard once Baptized.

 

[Juliebug108]

If someone is unconcerned then it goes back to if the person has been reborn in the Spirit.
Works open up a slippery slope…People living fearful whether they have enough on the list.
How many works is enough? Did that sin now erase the good I did …

It’s not about making a grade. It’s simply about living as Christ taught us - being kind, compassionate, giving to the needy, serving others. Only God knows our motives and our heart. We shouldn’t be doing good works to EARN salvation, but we should be doing them out of our love for God. If we have true faith, and truly love God, our good works will be evidence of that.

If we are indifferent to the needs and sufferings of others, then how could we love God? How could we say that God’s love is in us?

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Hiskid1973]

It’s not about making a grade. It’s simply about living as Christ taught us - being kind, compassionate, giving to the needy, serving others. Only God knows our motives and our heart. We shouldn’t be doing good works to EARN salvation, but we should be doing them out of our love for God. If we have true faith, and truly love God, our good works will be evidence of that.

If we are indifferent to the needs and sufferings of others, then how could we love God? How could we say that God’s love is in us?

Peace and blessings,
Julie

Amen… No good work earns salvation…God bless…

 

[chypmonk]

If someone is unconcerned then it goes back to if the person has been reborn in the Spirit.
Works open up a slippery slope…People living fearful whether they have enough on the list.
How many works is enough? Did that sin now erase the good I did …

Phil. 2:
"12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation."

That is, be equally upon your guard against presumption and despair. Paul is anxious to inspire a just confidence in Jesus Christ, but he is not less solicitous to root out all self-confidence arising from our supposed merits or excellence.

"13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will."

It is God who works in you both to will and to accomplish. We can neither have a will, nor begin, nor fulfil any thing of ourselves, in order to a reward in heaven. Our free-will is not taken away, or we should not be commanded to work; but it is added, with fear and trembling, , that we might not be proud of our good works.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Amen…Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saves us…

 

[Serap]

I see where Luther was coming from when he said that good works should come out of our faith.

I am stumped with the claim that the Papal office is the anti-Christ.

Did Luther really believe this?

I have also read that Luther was very anti-Jewish and that the Nazi’s got many of their ideas from Luther.

Is this also true?

 

[Hiskid1973]

I see where Luther was coming from when he said that good works should come out of our faith.

I am stumped with the claim that the Papal office is the anti-Christ.

Did Luther really believe this?

I have also read that Luther was very anti-Jewish and that the Nazi’s got many of their ideas from Luther.

Is this also true?

I heard that stuff to, but always remember God uses imperfect people to do His will…We always reap what we have sown.Something was going on there that obviously needed changing…

 

[Juliebug108]

I see where Luther was coming from when he said that good works should come out of our faith.

I am stumped with the claim that the Papal office is the anti-Christ.

Treatise on the power and Primacy of the Pope:
bookofconcord.org/treatise.php

Did Luther really believe this?

…Yes…

I have also read that Luther was very anti-Jewish and that the Nazi’s got many of their ideas from Luther.

Is this also true?

Luther was very anti-Jewish, yes.
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html

His influence on the Nazi’s…I’m not sure…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism#Debate_on_influence_on_Nazis

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[Serap]

I heard that stuff to, but always remember God uses imperfect people to do His will…We always reap what we have sown.Something was going on there that obviously needed changing…

Yes, this is true.

I just have really hard time with Catholics being so judgmental towards Protestants, so I am trying to learn more about Christianity as a whole.

See, Luther saw how corrupt the CC was and tried to reform the church. I think when any religion becomes big and organized, corruption erodes the organization from within. It’s human nature and no organization of religion is void of internal corruption.

We now see this with large Protestant churches also. Humans are very imperfect, yes.

I do not necessarily believe that Catholics are the only ones with the whole truth. Many Protestants are model Christians and if Catholics imitated them, the CC would be a much better organization.

 

[Juliebug108]

I heard that stuff to, but always remember God uses imperfect people to do His will…We always reap what we have sown.Something was going on there that obviously needed changing…

I agree. If you compare Luther’s actions to those of the Pope he was challenging…boy oh boy…Luther looked like an angel.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

 

[PJM]

I would like to understand this concept better.

This is related to the division of the CC and Luther.

It can be well summurized in James chapter two:

IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT CATHOLICS CAN EARN / WORK THERE WAY INTO HEAVEN… FAITH is ALWAYS required.

“So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”

The Teaching of James is not some new or novel idea; It’s based on the ONE WORD that could be used to describe the entire Bible: LOVE…

**John 13: 34-35 **“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

The understanding of the Protestant community is simply too simplistic for God. While God is surely a God of Love and Mercy; these attributes are counter-balanced by God’s absolutely necessary Divine Justice and Fairness. To accept that one can follow God in His Glory without ALSO following Him in His suffering is at best; naive. The message by Christ “to take up your cross daily and follow Me” appears five separate times in the Bibles; the same as the Eucharist. . Luke.14: 7 “Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” …. **Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.” **Rev.2: 23 **“and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

All too often non-catholics tend to look at God as they would like God to be; NOT as God has to be, or actually is. This same approach seems to apply to personal interpration of the Bible. Make it fit my beliefes; not what it actually teaches.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Hiskid1973]

Yes, this is true.

I just have really hard time with Catholics being so judgmental towards Protestants, so I am trying to learn more about Christianity as a whole.
I do not necessarily believe that Catholics are the only ones with the whole truth. Many Protestants are model Christians and if Catholics imitated them, the CC would be a much better organization.

Amen…I actually had catholic’s on the forum make fun of my born anew experience…It’s all the same Jesus we put our trust in…God Bless…

 

[Serap]

It can be well summurized in James chapter two:

IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT CATHOLICS CAN EARN / WORK THERE WAY INTO HEAVEN… FAITH is ALWAYS required.

“So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”

The Teaching of James is not some new or novel idea; It’s based on the ONE WORD that could be used to describe the entire Bible: LOVE…

**John 13: 34-35 **“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

The understanding of the Protestant community is simply too simplistic for God. While God is surely a God of Love and Mercy; these attributes are counter-balanced by God’s absolutely necessary Divine Justice and Fairness. To accept that one can follow God in His Glory without ALSO following Him in His suffering is at best; naive. The message by Christ “to take up your cross daily and follow Me” appears five separate times in the Bibles; the same as the Eucharist. . Luke.14: 7 “Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” …. **Heb.6: 10 **“For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.” **Rev.2: 23 **“and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

All too often non-catholics tend to look at God as they would like God to be; NOT as God has to be, or actually is. This same approach seems to apply to personal interpration of the Bible. Make it fit my beliefes; not what it actually teaches.

God Bless,
Pat

Thank you

 

[JonNC]

Agh…this is completely where it falls apart for me. So, good works must necessarily follow faith, otherwise one’s faith is dead…but good works aren’t necessary for salvation???

…how are good works not contributing to our salvation if they are the evidence of our true faith?! It seems completely contradictory.

Peace and blessings,
Julie

In what way do we access justification? Simply by grace through faith, and not by works. It is as gift of God.
Luther said:

We say that justification is effective without works, not that faith is without works. For that faith which lacks fruit is not an efficacious but a reigned faith. “Without works” is ambiguous, then. For that reason this argument settles nothing. It is one thing that faith justifies without works; it is another thing that faith exists without works.”

Works do not justifiy, but faith does. However, the regenerate do not have the option to forego good works, as they are a command of Christ Himself. Failure to do as Christ commands is sin, and repeated and unrepented sin leads to a loss of faith. Failure to do what Christ commands is a rejection of the faith that justifies.

Jon