What does freedom mean to a Muslim

[BelFarfalla]

prove

PROVE? You want me to prove that the land which is now Israel belonged to others besides Muslims before Muslims invaded it shortly after Muhammad’s death? You are kidding right? There were no Muslims before Muhammad. People lived on that land before Muhammad so of course it belonged to others besides Muslims before Muslims invaded and took it way from others.

*The Muslim conquest and subjugation of Palestine began with a battle, the August 20, 636, battle of Yarmk (it is believed that 75,000 soldiers took part – hardly bloodless). With the help of the local Jews who welcomed the Muslims as liberators, the Muslims had subjugated the remainder of Palestine but had not been able to capture Jerusalem. Beginning in July 637, the Muslims began a siege of Jerusalem which lasted for five (hardly bloodless) months before Jerusalem fell in February 638. Arabs did not sack the city, and the Arab soldiers were apparently kept in tight control by their leaders. No destruction was permitted. This was indeed a triumph of civilized control, if imperialism, colonization, and bloody conquest can ever be said to be “civilized.” It was at this conquest that many significant hallmarks of Muslim colonialism began. The conquered Christian and Jewish people were made to pay a tribute to the colonialist Muslims. In addition, Baghdad used the imperialist, colonialist, bloody wars of conquest throughout the life of its empire to provide the Caliphate with a steady stream of slaves, many of whom were made eunuchs. *

 

[redmars3000]

to know that usa is the cause of what heppening there see the difference before and after occupation
uptill now you didnt tell reasons justifying war on iraq

USA is the cause!!! ARe you saying those people dont have their own freedom to choose what they are going to do? Whether they have a choice to target a market full of civilians, or a military patrol??? THey dont have that choice to make, the US is making that choice for them?

Nice long reply to my long list of gripes. Is that how you plan on debating me?

And when did the U.S. Invade Chechnya?

Justifying the Iraq war was never the question to begin with by you. You asked why your people were always called terrorists. I dont have to Justify the Iraq war to answer your question. What your question was about was the conduct of warfare. And why we make the distinction between a terrorist and a soldier. Answer my reply to that first, then we will talk about whether the Iraq war was justified. If not, I will assume you have no defense and are admitting defeat.

And please dont give these ridiculous one sentence answers you have been lately" Where is the proof." That will make you look like an ostrich with his head stuck in the ground to any westerner.

 

[redmars3000]

redmars, you do know about google, don’t you? Iraqi civilians, especially women and children, have been killed in far greater numbers than US soldiers. As in, orders-of-magnitude greater. Look it up. You are not personally answerable for them necessarily as a Christian or a Catholic or even a US citizen…and neither are individual Muslims for atrocities done by members of their faith. Somehow, I feel personally responsible for all the killings, though I adhere to no religion.

Nepethne, you do know the difference between targeting civilians and collateral damage dont you? The one is intended, the other is not. Besides, the major reason for civilian deaths is not caused by U.S. soldiers. Who is shooting the bullets at the people, and there you will find the guiltly party.

You can feel responsible for it if you want, but I dont see the point of your post. You aren’t really being clear here.

 

[Verisimilitude]

tell me ,(((((((with proof)))))))

I wanted your view about the history of your nation.

Old Kingdom
(2686-2160 BC)

First Intermediate Period
(2160-2040 BC)

Middle Kingdom
(2040-1633 BC)

Second Intermediate Period
(1786-1558 BC)

New Kingdom
(1558-1085 BC)

Third Intermediate Period
(1085-525 BC)

Persian rule
(525-332 BC)

Greek rule
(332-30 BC) (also called the Hellenistic)

Roman rule
(30 BC-700 AD)

Islamic rule
(700 AD to present)

Unlike the American Indian, Egyptians lost their heritage, seemingly.

 

[redmars3000]

is there a proof?

What do you need for proof. Aren’t the actions of your people available to you to view on your T.V.s? whereever you are? Or do you think it is some conspiracy?

 

[ahmadhassan]

PROVE? You want me to prove that the land which is now Israel belonged to others besides Muslims before Muslims invaded it shortly after Muhammad’s death? You are kidding right? There were no Muslims before Muhammad. People lived on that land before Muhammad so of course it belonged to others besides Muslims before Muslims invaded and took it way from others.

*The Muslim conquest and subjugation of Palestine began with a battle, the August 20, 636, battle of Yarmk (it is believed that 75,000 soldiers took part – hardly bloodless). With the help of the local Jews who welcomed the Muslims as liberators, the Muslims had subjugated the remainder of Palestine but had not been able to capture Jerusalem. Beginning in July 637, the Muslims began a siege of Jerusalem which lasted for five (hardly bloodless) months before Jerusalem fell in February 638. Arabs did not sack the city, and the Arab soldiers were apparently kept in tight control by their leaders. No destruction was permitted. This was indeed a triumph of civilized control, if imperialism, colonization, and bloody conquest can ever be said to be “civilized.” It was at this conquest that many significant hallmarks of Muslim colonialism began. The conquered Christian and Jewish people were made to pay a tribute to the colonialist Muslims. In addition, Baghdad used the imperialist, colonialist, bloody wars of conquest throughout the life of its empire to provide the Caliphate with a steady stream of slaves, many of whom were made eunuchs. *

i`m saying that its not belong to jews but arab (they were not muslims ) now arabs mostly are muslims

 

[ahmadhassan]

USA is the cause!!! ARe you saying those people dont have their own freedom to choose what they are going to do? Whether they have a choice to target a market full of civilians, or a military patrol??? THey dont have that choice to make, the US is making that choice for them?

Nice long reply to my long list of gripes. Is that how you plan on debating me?

And when did the U.S. Invade Chechnya?

Justifying the Iraq war was never the question to begin with by you. You asked why your people were always called terrorists. I dont have to Justify the Iraq war to answer your question. What your question was about was the conduct of warfare. And why we make the distinction between a terrorist and a soldier. Answer my reply to that first, then we will talk about whether the Iraq war was justified. If not, I will assume you have no defense and are admitting defeat.

And please dont give these ridiculous one sentence answers you have been lately" Where is the proof." That will make you look like an ostrich with his head stuck in the ground to any westerner.

we are talking about situation in iraq and who is responsible for ,and you have to justify the war bec who made it are christians why dont you call them terrorists while calling muslims terrorists while they trying to reback their land in palestine ,i agree that there are conflicts in iraq but usa is responsible for bec that conflicts were not exist before occupation

 

[ahmadhassan]

I wanted your view about the history of your nation.

Old Kingdom
(2686-2160 BC)

First Intermediate Period
(2160-2040 BC)

Middle Kingdom
(2040-1633 BC)

Second Intermediate Period
(1786-1558 BC)

New Kingdom
(1558-1085 BC)

Third Intermediate Period
(1085-525 BC)

Persian rule
(525-332 BC)

Greek rule
(332-30 BC) (also called the Hellenistic)

Roman rule
(30 BC-700 AD)

Islamic rule
(700 AD to present)

Unlike the American Indian, Egyptians lost their heritage, seemingly.

you are wrong you know why ? bec when muslims entered egypt ,they were just 3 million and egyptian were 7 millions ,now muslims are 90 millions and christians 10 millions ,dont you know that egyptian converted to islam see
^ “The people of Egypt before the Arab conquest in the 7th century identified themselves and their language in Greek as Aigyptios (Arabic qibt, Westernized as Copt); when Egyptian Muslims later ceased to call themselves Aigyptioi, the term became the distinctive name of the Christian minority.” Coptic Orthodox Church. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. 2007

 

[hosemonkey]

we are talking about situation in iraq and who is responsible for ,and you have to justify the war bec who made it are christians why dont you call them terrorists while calling muslims terrorists while they trying to reback their land in palestine ,i agree that there are conflicts in iraq but usa is responsible for bec that conflicts were not exist before occupation

It is very difficult to make sense of the poster’s fractured English, but I will do my best to respond:
So, this poor deluded man honestly believes that the U.S. just decided one day to take out poor 'ol Saddam Hussein 'cause we did not like the way he combed his hair. Nevermind that he and his regime were responsible for mass murder, he was also guilty of exporting terror to the region and coveting the property of his neighbors. A particularly nasty sort of criminal. Ironic to see that palestinians are trying to steal back what they originally stole in the first place.

 

[ahmadhassan]

It is very difficult to make sense of the poster’s fractured English, but I will do my best to respond:
So, this poor deluded man honestly believes that the U.S. just decided one day to take out poor 'ol Saddam Hussein 'cause we did not like the way he combed his hair. Nevermind that he and his regime were responsible for mass murder, he was also guilty of exporting terror to the region and coveting the property of his neighbors.

can you prove ? dont you know that judgement of saddam was under occupation by a court held by order of temporary president of iraq primer ?

A particularly nasty sort of criminal. Ironic to see that palestinians are trying to steal back what they originally stole in the first place.

prove that they stole it

 

[Verisimilitude]

you are wrong you know why ? bec when muslims entered egypt ,they were just 3 million and egyptian were 7 millions ,now muslims are 90 millions and christians 10 millions ,dont you know that egyptian converted to islam see

Umar was the one who asked Egypt to convert, correct?

 

[redmars3000]

we are talking about situation in iraq and who is responsible for ,and you have to justify the war bec who made it are christians why dont you call them terrorists while calling muslims terrorists while they trying to reback their land in palestine ,i agree that there are conflicts in iraq but usa is responsible for bec that conflicts were not exist before occupation

This is your **original quote **to which I responded:

why dont you say the reverse ? usa invaded iraq ,muslims are killed in shechania ,jews took land of muslims “palestine” when we do something to reback our land and resist occupation you call us terrorists open your eye

You include 3 placeshere to add to your argument. Iraq, shechania(Which I assume is Chechnya), and palestine.

Only one involves the Americans. The question you asked is why when European culture countries invade somewhere are they not called terrorists, but we call the muslim terrorists in palestine, chechnya, and Iraq ‘terrorists.’ Basically you are saying that you believe you see a double standard. To this I replied with an explanation in post number #36.

Justification for the war in Iraq was not the original question. You are dodging a response to my answer. I freely accept a debate about the basis forthe Iraq war, but first reply to the original debate between us.

I suspect you do not have a firm grasp of English. This is forgivable but if this is the reason for misunderstanding, please say so.

 

[paarsurrey]

What do you believe is the right punishment for those people who leave Islam?
Do you believe that there should be restrictions on religions (like Christianity and Judeism) for those poeple who live under Islamic rule?

Hi
There is no punishment of changing religion in this world, that would be judged in the hereafter.
There should be no restriction on any religion, everybody should be free to choose as per dictates of his conscience for entering or leaving a religion, that is what is termed by Quran 8:40
“And fight them until there is no persecuion and religion is wholly for Allah. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Watchful of what they do.”
Yes, people of other religions could live peacefully in the Islamic rule and practice their religions, if they do not make any mischief.
Thanks
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Qu’ran orders Muslims to fight non-Muslims until islam controls the earth.

Hi
Please quote from Quran.
Thanks
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.

 

[hosemonkey]

can you prove ? dont you know that judgement of saddam was under occupation by a court held by order of temporary president of iraq primer ?
prove that they stole it

I do not have to prove anything. History contains the record of moslem conquest. If you do not choose to make yourself familiar with your own history, then that is your problem. If you choose to believe a distorted moslem view of history, then nothing that I say will make any difference and you will remain in ignorance. An Iraqi court gave Saddam a trial, which was more than Saddam gave to most of his victims.

 

[hosemonkey]

Hi
Please quote from Quran.
Thanks
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.

You need to go sell this idea to your fellow moslems, but be careful that they don’t kill you first.

 

[Verisimilitude]

"And fight them until there is no persecuion and religion is wholly for Allah.

Why/how does the fight begin in the first place?

Yes, people of other religions could live peacefully in the Islamic rule and practice their religions, if they do not make any mischief.

Can you define this mischief?

And back to an original question, why was fighting permitted when Muhammad was 53 and older when he didn’t fight before?

 

[ahmadhassan]

I do not have to prove anything. History contains the record of moslem conquest. If you do not choose to make yourself familiar with your own history, then that is your problem. If you choose to believe a distorted moslem view of history, then nothing that I say will make any difference and you will remain in ignorance. An Iraqi court gave Saddam a trial, which was more than Saddam gave to most of his victims.

why dont you say that you cant?

 

[paarsurrey]

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimoon (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #193)

Hi
The true translation of the verse is as follows :
“And fight them unitl there is no persecution, and religion is freely professed for Allah. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors.”
Please remember that the Muslims believe only in the original text in Arabic, there is no sanctity for any translation if it does not convey what is written/revealed in Arabic.
Thanks
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.
GodAllahYHWH is All-Knowing and All-Wise; one should invariably give Claim and Reason on all important issues from one’s Revealed Book; one shouldn’t try putting one’s own words into God’s mouth.

 

[paarsurrey]

Note that the above quote states that polytheists can be fought even if they no wrong-doers.

Hi
Ploytheists or non-polytheists, they can live in a Islamic State peacefully with equal rights as per Quran/Islam, if they are not mischiefmongers against the state.There is no contradiction here, only the verse has not been correctly understood.
Thanks
The West, as I understand, due to certain disinformation has seen only MullahIslam or MullahShariah; the true face of Muhammad’sIslam and PromisedMessiahImamMahdi’sIslam is yet hidden from their eyes, which is truly speaking only peaceful.
GodAllahYHWH is All-Knowing and All-Wise; one should invariably give Claim and Reason on all important issues from one’s Revealed Book; one shouldn’t try putting one’s own words into God’s mouth.