What does God make of feminism?

[Sair]

Feminism is a about choice? No one should be arguing that women are/should be recognized as human beings or equal to men in Gods eyes as his creations.

The trouble is, of course - and this is really the whole point - that for much of our history, women have quite patently not been recognised as equals, nor afforded the same opportunities for employment, participation in society or self-expression as men.

It took feminist activists to point out that this state of affairs was unjust, and it was not really until the latter part of the last century that women in general were able to engage with Western society in a manner comparable to that of men (in some cultures, of course, women are still treated as subhuman). Many women still feel pressured to conform to socially-constructed notions of what it means to be feminine and a ‘real woman’. Conversely, many men also feel bound by these kinds of artificial standards pertaining to masculinity and what it means to be a ‘real man’. This process of labelling, defining and trying to fit people into boxes instead of recognising them as individuals denies everyone their God-given freedoms.

As to what God may think about feminism, one might suppose that something as trivial as gender would matter little if at all to the divine being. Justice and equality, however, would seem to be far more important considerations. Therefore, if I were to presume to conjecture what God thinks, I would like to think God would approve of any action or concept whose purpose was to promote these ideals. True feminism certainly fits that mould.

 

[goodknight439]

The trouble is, of course - and this is really the whole point - that for much of our history, women have quite patently not been recognised as equals, nor afforded the same opportunities for employment, participation in society or self-expression as men.

It took feminist activists to point out that this state of affairs was unjust, and it was not really until the latter part of the last century that women in general were able to engage with Western society in a manner comparable to that of men (in some cultures, of course, women are still treated as subhuman). Many women still feel pressured to conform to socially-constructed notions of what it means to be feminine and a ‘real woman’. Conversely, many men also feel bound by these kinds of artificial standards pertaining to masculinity and what it means to be a ‘real man’. This process of labelling, defining and trying to fit people into boxes instead of recognising them as individuals denies everyone their God-given freedoms.

As to what God may think about feminism, one might suppose that something as trivial as gender would matter little if at all to the divine being. Justice and equality, however, would seem to be far more important considerations. Therefore, if I were to presume to conjecture what God thinks, I would like to think God would approve of any action or concept whose purpose was to promote these ideals. True feminism certainly fits that mould.

:ehh: I bet you are really a blast at parties.

 

[marietta]

goodknight439:

“I bet you are really a blast at parties.”

What is the purpose of this remark to Sair?

If partyin’ in your thing, maybe your signature should read, “Viva Las Vegas”.

marietta

 

[Salonika]

One would think I might have learned by now that arguing with a black-and-white worldview is well nigh impossible - I suspect it is only through vanity that I persist. I really should fix that…

Now some people might say might say that about people who continue posting in response black and white views but I don’t (and you may have been speaking tongue-in-cheek).

I think there are a number of reasons to continue to post in this situation - to allow other views to be heard, to explain a point of view further, to clarify a response, to introduce new material.

The situation I find difficult is where I have been considered to have advocated something I have not advocated - do I ignore this as it can be argued it doesn’t matter but if I don’t then I am giving them amunition to use against me and others.

It took feminist activists to point out that this state of affairs was unjust, and it was not really until the latter part of the last century that women in general were able to engage with Western society in a manner comparable to that of men (in some cultures, of course, women are still treated as subhuman). Many women still feel pressured to conform to socially-constructed notions of what it means to be feminine and a ‘real woman’. Conversely, many men also feel bound by these kinds of artificial standards pertaining to masculinity and what it means to be a ‘real man’. This process of labelling, defining and trying to fit people into boxes instead of recognising them as individuals denies everyone their God-given freedoms.

Another, good description of feminism, Sair.

So often people forget that feminism not only offers choice to women but to man. Some women and men will continue to make traditional choices, and that’s fine to me (as long as they have thought about them and the consequences). Other men and women will make non-traditional choices, and again that is fine, as long as they have thought about them and the consequences.

Also do not believe that we should throw out feminism because some people make bad choices or what some people consider a bad choice. We are not in their shoes and they are not in ours.

 

[Sair]

As an aside, since this thread has been my first - and as it happens most extensive thus far - direct participation in this forum, I would like to say how much I appreciate those of you who have made supportive comments or have actively engaged in discussion with me. It is good to know that for every simplistic dismissal or personal barb cast in my direction, there is a contrasting intelligent and thoughtful response. Thank you

 

[Fitswimmer]

You don’t have to state your position. The mere fact that you question to any degree whatsoever the ultra orthodoxy expressed by some here is enough to paint you as “other”. Welcome to CAF. There are moderate voices here too, so don’t run away please. But pretty much, if you question what is considered as dogma in any respect whatsoever you are not a proper Catholic. Course, it’s always someone’s opinion of what is dogma, not necessarily what is in some cases. Feminism is deeply associated with only one topic here and that topic is abortion. If they could tie it to homosexuality that would be second. The two big agenda items here.

Amen, Sister!!! Actually I have heard it stated that all feminists are lesbians…the link is established!!!

Don’t forget modesty in dress-that’s number three…but only in regard to what women wear.

 

[Salonika]

Amen, Sister!!! Actually I have heard it stated that all feminists are lesbians…the link is established!!!

Don’t forget modesty in dress-that’s number three…but only in regard to what women wear.

and the one I’ve come up against most here - advocating women priests (though I had said nothing about it.)

and another hating or being jealous of men because (when what we actually want are choices for men and women.)

 

[Fitswimmer]

and the one I’ve come up against most here - advocating women priests (though I had said nothing about it.)

and another hating or being jealous of men because (when what we actually want are choices for men and women.)

Yeah, I’ve heard those too.

What are people so afraid of? What do they really think will happen if women are treated with equal dignity and justice??

 

[elts1956]

Yeah, I’ve heard those too.

What are people so afraid of? What do they really think will happen if women are treated with equal dignity and justice??

yeah? why is that? do you deny that we call God OUR FATHER?
Or do you take the feminist gender inclusive view that God is either female or no gender at all? It really grinds my gears when I hear christians refer to God as that. Jesus always refered to God as FATHER.

Methinks “someone” wants to start an argumentive “discussion”. He already said he wouldn’t discuss it.

Okay, here you go.

This is my take on it. Question: Who FIRST called God “Father”? Answer: A man. Who SECONDLY called God “Father”? Answer: His wife. Question: Why? Answer: Because her husband who was a MAN told her to and she didn’t have a choice, because she depended on him for her livlihood. He wouldn’t let her go out of the cave/tent to work.

 

[elts1956]

yeah? why is that? do you deny that we call God OUR FATHER?
Or do you take the feminist gender inclusive view that God is either female or no gender at all? It really grinds my gears when I hear christians refer to God as that. Jesus always refered to God as FATHER.

Methinks “someone” wants to start an argumentive “discussion”. He already said he wouldn’t discuss it.

Okay, here you go.

This is my take on it. Question: Who FIRST called God “Father”? Answer: A man. Who SECONDLY called God “Father”? Answer: His wife. Question: Why? Answer: Because her husband who was a MAN told her to and she didn’t have a choice, because she depended on him for her livlihood. He wouldn’t let her go out of the cave/tent to work.

 

[estesbob]

Yeah, I’ve heard those too.

What are people so afraid of? What do they really think will happen if women are treated with equal dignity and justice??

Of course its a lillte more complex than that. Supporting the Church’s doctine of a male only priethood has nothing whatsover to do with treating women with equal dignity and justice.

 

[elts1956]

Geeez! What century were you born in? OBEY? Cooperate, treat one another as equals, yes, but OBEY?? OBEY?? NATURAL ORDER??? NATURAL ORDER?? Maybe in Abraham’s day. Get a grip Jimmy.

 

[elts1956]

Sair,
I’m not scared of women having equal rights. You seem to think that it is not ok to judge evil actions (abortion). Jesus told us to judge the sin not the sinner. He will judge the sinner. And it is a sin to just stand by and not do anything when millions of babies are being murdered. I agree with Tantum ergo that there is no just reason to kill an innocent baby. You say that we don’t know others feelings or reasons. It doesn’t matter. It is still an intrinsically evil act that takes away the babies human right to live. I know a family whose teenage daughter was raped and pregnant with the rapists child. The family knew they would not kill this innocent child. They adopted this baby and have since adopted more. We cannot have this kind of heroic virtue on our own, but I believe that with prayer and God’s grace anything is possible.

I didn’t see anything in Sair’s postings that equated with your posting “You seem to think that it is not ok to judge evil actions (abortion).” How did you come by that interpretation?

 

[Fitswimmer]

Of course its a lillte more complex than that. Supporting the Church’s doctine of a male only priethood has nothing whatsover to do with treating women with equal dignity and justice.

Exactly, but every time a Catholic woman dares to suggest anything about equality we are told that they are the same issue. A person can be completely for the treatment of women’s rights and still understand and accept the concept of a male only priesthood.

Personally, I have zero issue with a male priesthood, but I have a LOT of issues with a man doing the exact same job as I do, with the exact same level of experience and education-but making more money to do it.

 

[elts1956]

Do you think the rise of feminism has bettered the world we live in, or made it worse?

thomfra, you rascal, you are at it again.

Having read several posts on this thread, I am still trying to form a definition of feminism for myself. I wonder if men have as much difficulty being “true to self” and their individual natures as women do? I wonder if it is even possible to define the feminine or the masculine within ourselves?? There are no clear cut, or definitive answers regarding this, other than what we decide the answers to be.

I also wonder if men who are the primary bread winners in a family ever regret their role? I think both men and women are becoming more aware that their roles do not have to be so rigidly defined and followed. Men can priortize in a more socially acceptable way to spend more time with their children, something my Grandfather and Father didn’t even realize was necessary.

Women CAN choose a career outside the home, but with restrictions. Hopefully if they do choose this, they will be allowed to give their primary attention to their children. But sometimes in the work world, in our monetary society, this isn’t possible. Or the woman is so darn tired she has nothng left to give to children, or husband, after she finishes work for the day. This is where the demands of society become unjust to both the Mother, her children and her husband. But the ones who lose out the most are the children. They have no choice, but then neither does the Mother. She can be a stay at home Mom, and raise the kids while knowing she is just as smart and capable as the man who is free to choose his career without the encumberance placed on the woman by herself and by society, ie. guilt for leaving the raising of her children to someone else, and dealing with the frustration of not being able to fully use the talents God gave her to better society. Or she can choose career over everything else, be married and have children and deal with all the negatives listed above. Liviing life in this way can be spiritually devastating.

The poster who said he would have no trouble in the event his wife decided to find a job for a “bit” of time outside the parameters of the home “after” the children are raised has no idea what HOOPS women have to go through for freedom of choice. The little woman can have her hobby. Well whoop de do! That is subtle disrespect. Sometimes we don’t even know we have that attitude, so I can’t really call that poster to task…

I just hope all you male posters give some thought as to what you would do if you couldn’t at least try to follow the career path of your choice with no questions asked, with the full support of society… No “well who will take care of the children, who will cook the dinner?, wash the clothes, keep the silverware sparkling”? no “you are being selfish to want a career outside the home”.

I know men have their own sets of pressures delivered en masse by society, by tradition, expected roles of men and expectations they place upon themselves. But how many of you would be willing to give up that career, or the self esteem you gain through your work to be stay at home Dads??

 

[estesbob]

Exactly, but every time a Catholic woman dares to suggest anything about equality we are told that they are the same issue. A person can be completely for the treatment of women’s rights and still understand and accept the concept of a male only priesthood.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Fitswimmer;3962215:

But if you read this thread many believe that the Church should change their Doctriones in the name of “equality”.

IMO the biggest harm to the womans movement was when their so called leaders decidede abortion was a fundamental right. Back in my college days i was a supporter of the ERA and actively campaigned for it. but the Roe v Wade came down and the womans movement was hijacked by the radical left. It is unfortuanlte that abortion clouds our view of the legitimate issues but it is something i have to constatly work on.

Of course they is still a problem with the old chain em to the kitchen crowd-one need only look at the current thread on “cleavage” to see this. It is interesting the opinions men have on the displaying something they dont have.

I dont have a problem with eqaul pay for eqaul work. Studies show when you allow for women taking time out for child bearing their is eqaulity in pay-in fact women who dont take leaves for maternity actually earn a little more than men in the same profession.

What I do have a big problem with is the concept of “equivalent pay”. That is where the Govt decides that, for instance, being a teacher is equivalent to being being a union electrician and they should be paid the same.

Thursday I am going to a luncheon where my sister will recieve an award for being one of the top 25 most powerful women in the city she lives in. She makes more than me and has two kids! i am going to demand eqauivalent pay

Well, I don’t know where you got the figures that women who don’t take maternity leave earn more-but I can tell you from practical experience that I earn on average $5000 less a year than my male counterparts doing the same job. (a few of my co-workers like to brag) We’re all college educated, past experience is relatively similar.

 

[BlestOne]

Ya know… I’ve said it before, and I will say it again…
Equal and alike are not the same… (read A WRINKLE IN TIME)

As a woman, I am quite satisfied to know that my role and purpose is different than a man’s purpose. There are really two distinct definitions of feminism here… one states that women are to be treated equal (not alike) and the other seems to strive to prove superiority and alikeness in that superiority…

Women are tasked with bringing new life into the world and caring for all in their family while men are tasked with the overall protection of that family… There are so many instances where the folly of role reversal is explored yet some people never see the connection.

Take vampire stories for example. It is the allegorical story of what would happen if men and women abandoned their natural tendencies. Men preying on women, women preying on children. The entire story is about what would happen to a population where this was the norm. It is sad and even tragic to deny the nature that God has given us. Acting against our nature created a society that feeds on fear.

Women are elevated in the Catholic Church to a level that was previously unknown… We (women) were given the opportunity to be hospital administrators, deans of colleges and other highly respected positions when secular society didn’t allow women to hold these positions.

While women were given these opportunities, the Church in her infinite wisdom, has never forgotten that our primary drive and nature is to bear children and care for our families. It is a product of secular society that tells us that we should deny our nature and insist that we be treated like men. Why buy into an idea that is contrary to our nature?

As for the priesthood, Jesus did many things that shocked his fellow Jews. Not the least of which was talking to and teaching women. And yet, he appointed all men as his apostles… not even his own mother was an apostle. Why do you think that is? Jesus named 12 apostles to represent the 12 tribes of Israel. The 12 tribes had scattered and the first mission of the newly formed Church was to take the Word to the 12 tribes right? Right! So who were the heads of these tribes? Who protected them from harm and kept the tribes flourishing? It was the Elder male of the tribe wasn’t it? So to represent these tribes, Jesus chose men… he chose men who would take his word to the 12 tribes and then to the world. That pretty much set a precedence there. If Jesus was willing to break from typical tradition on so many fronts but not this one, isn’t it saying something important?

Why do women now scoff at this? Because they have been told by secular society that wanting a family and caring for a family are trivial and meaningless and undesirable. That is a lie! Raising up the next generation of society is the most important work. It is the insurance of the survival of a “people.” But to what end or degree is this? Face it, society today is much different from the societies of the past in some ways. First if all we have no assurance that women, children and widows will be taken care of by the males of our society.

Is that by the will of God or the will of man? Let’s see… hmmmm… I seem to remember something in Acts about this… oh right, deacons. The first deacons of the church were to make sure that the widows and orphans were cared for. As I recall these were all men, put in charge of seeing to the needs of the others in the group that could not provide for themselves. So in the plan of Christ’s Church all was shared with those who could not provide for themselves.

What we really need is not women trying to act in the role of men, or society telling us this is good and right. What we need is to live by the example that was set for us. I have no doubt it would be a hard task for some. But nothing worth having ever came easy did it.

Instead of lamenting about womens rights and degrading the masculinity of men, why don’t we all strive to be who God made us to be?

As for feminism… and the original question… I imagine God would say, “My dear children, I have loved you and created you. I knew you before you were formed in your mothers womb. I made you, man and woman that you might help each other find happiness on earth and fulfill the tasks I have given you in your hearts… and for women… that IS the ultimate form of feminism… being happily satisfied with your part in society.”

 

[Sair]

On the subject of adopting nontraditional roles, I recently watched an Australian documentary called Life At 3, which gave a snapshot of the lives of selected participants in a study of around 10,000 children from birth through the formative years of childhood. One little girl’s parents were almost the polar opposite of the traditional man-as-breadwinner-while-woman-stays-home family structure. The mum was a high-flying executive in her company, and the dad was the one who stayed home during the day (although IIRC he did part-time work as a firefighter - once their daughter was in preschool, at least).

The way this was portrayed, it was all perfectly natural - as it should be, if all parties are fulfilling their preferred roles. The father appeared to be having a fantastic time raising his daughter, and was really involved with her early learning, constantly playing with her and encouraging her creativity. The mother also seemed happy with being the primary breadwinner, and apparently found her work very fulfilling. I really like to see people stepping out of the box and pursuing the goals that will make them happy, regardless of society’s expectations.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Ya know… I’ve said it before, and I will say it again…
Equal and alike are not the same… (read A WRINKLE IN TIME)

As a woman, I am quite satisfied to know that my role and purpose is different than a man’s purpose. There are really two distinct definitions of feminism here… one states that women are to be treated equal (not alike) and the other seems to strive to prove superiority and alikeness in that superiority…

Women are tasked with bringing new life into the world and caring for all in their family while men are tasked with the overall protection of that family… There are so many instances where the folly of role reversal is explored yet some people never see the connection.

Take vampire stories for example. It is the allegorical story of what would happen if men and women abandoned their natural tendencies. Men preying on women, women preying on children. The entire story is about what would happen to a population where this was the norm. It is sad and even tragic to deny the nature that God has given us. Acting against our nature created a society that feeds on fear.

Women are elevated in the Catholic Church to a level that was previously unknown… We (women) were given the opportunity to be hospital administrators, deans of colleges and other highly respected positions when secular society didn’t allow women to hold these positions.

While women were given these opportunities, the Church in her infinite wisdom, has never forgotten that our primary drive and nature is to bear children and care for our families. It is a product of secular society that tells us that we should deny our nature and insist that we be treated like men. Why buy into an idea that is contrary to our nature?

As for the priesthood, Jesus did many things that shocked his fellow Jews. Not the least of which was talking to and teaching women. And yet, he appointed all men as his apostles… not even his own mother was an apostle. Why do you think that is? Jesus named 12 apostles to represent the 12 tribes of Israel. The 12 tribes had scattered and the first mission of the newly formed Church was to take the Word to the 12 tribes right? Right! So who were the heads of these tribes? Who protected them from harm and kept the tribes flourishing? It was the Elder male of the tribe wasn’t it? So to represent these tribes, Jesus chose men… he chose men who would take his word to the 12 tribes and then to the world. That pretty much set a precedence there. If Jesus was willing to break from typical tradition on so many fronts but not this one, isn’t it saying something important?

Why do women now scoff at this? Because they have been told by secular society that wanting a family and caring for a family are trivial and meaningless and undesirable. That is a lie! Raising up the next generation of society is the most important work. It is the insurance of the survival of a “people.” But to what end or degree is this? Face it, society today is much different from the societies of the past in some ways. First if all we have no assurance that women, children and widows will be taken care of by the males of our society.

Is that by the will of God or the will of man? Let’s see… hmmmm… I seem to remember something in Acts about this… oh right, deacons. The first deacons of the church were to make sure that the widows and orphans were cared for. As I recall these were all men, put in charge of seeing to the needs of the others in the group that could not provide for themselves. So in the plan of Christ’s Church all was shared with those who could not provide for themselves.

What we really need is not women trying to act in the role of men, or society telling us this is good and right. What we need is to live by the example that was set for us. I have no doubt it would be a hard task for some. But nothing worth having ever came easy did it.

Instead of lamenting about womens rights and degrading the masculinity of men, why don’t we all strive to be who God made us to be?

As for feminism… and the original question… I imagine God would say, “My dear children, I have loved you and created you. I knew you before you were formed in your mothers womb. I made you, man and woman that you might help each other find happiness on earth and fulfill the tasks I have given you in your hearts… and for women… that IS the ultimate form of feminism… being happily satisfied with your part in society.”

God made me a lesbian (even though I know many people do not believe sexual orientation comes from birth-I have lived it for nearly 50 years and I do) Even if I was to deny that and force myself into a loveless marriage for the sake of “being who God made me to be” I cannot have children. Since I cannot do the most important work of society, what does that say to me about my worth as a human being?