What does God make of feminism?

[estesbob]

God made me a lesbian (even though I know many people do not believe sexual orientation comes from birth-I have lived it for nearly 50 years and I do) Even if I was to deny that and force myself into a loveless marriage for the sake of “being who God made me to be” I cannot have children. Since I cannot do the most important work of society, what does that say to me about my worth as a human being?

Worth as much as Edith Stein, Theresa of Avilla and a whole host of other women who were spiritual giants and didnt have children or were ever married. All of us can be spiritual giants regadless of the circumsatnces of our lives.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Worth as much as Edith Stein, Theresa of Avilla and a whole host of other women who were spiritual giants and didnt have children or were ever married. All of us can be spiritual giants regadless of the circumsatnces of our lives.

Thanks, Friend. Sometimes in the cacophony of voices preaching that women can only fulfill their true purpose in life by having children I forget to listen to the history of our faith.

 

[BlestOne]

Worth as much as Edith Stein, Theresa of Avilla and a whole host of other women who were spiritual giants and didn’t have children or were ever married. All of us can be spiritual giants regardless of the circumstances of our lives.

Thanks Estes…
Fitswimmer… I am sorry if you were offended by my post. I do stand by what I said, however, I by no means intended to hurt anyones feelings. I did not intend for it to be taken as the only work or that spiritual work wasn’t important. I was taking it as the most important work of continuing society. Spiritual work is always important. Sorry I wasn’t clear about it.

 

[goodknight439]

goodknight439:

“I bet you are really a blast at parties.”

What is the purpose of this remark to Sair?

marietta

Yes. it was a smart-alleck remark aimed at Sair.

 

[elts1956]

Ya know… I’ve said it before, and I will say it again…
Equal and alike are not the same… (read A WRINKLE IN TIME)

As a woman, I am quite satisfied to know that my role and purpose is different than a man’s purpose. There are really two distinct definitions of feminism here… one states that women are to be treated equal (not alike) and the other seems to strive to prove superiority and alikeness in that superiority…

Women are tasked with bringing new life into the world and caring for all in their family while men are tasked with the overall protection of that family… There are so many instances where the folly of role reversal is explored yet some people never see the connection.

Take vampire stories for example. It is the allegorical story of what would happen if men and women abandoned their natural tendencies. Men preying on women, women preying on children. The entire story is about what would happen to a population where this was the norm. It is sad and even tragic to deny the nature that God has given us. Acting against our nature created a society that feeds on fear.

Women are elevated in the Catholic Church to a level that was previously unknown… We (women) were given the opportunity to be hospital administrators, deans of colleges and other highly respected positions when secular society didn’t allow women to hold these positions.

While women were given these opportunities, the Church in her infinite wisdom, has never forgotten that our primary drive and nature is to bear children and care for our families. It is a product of secular society that tells us that we should deny our nature and insist that we be treated like men. Why buy into an idea that is contrary to our nature?

As for the priesthood, Jesus did many things that shocked his fellow Jews. Not the least of which was talking to and teaching women. And yet, he appointed all men as his apostles… not even his own mother was an apostle. Why do you think that is? Jesus named 12 apostles to represent the 12 tribes of Israel. The 12 tribes had scattered and the first mission of the newly formed Church was to take the Word to the 12 tribes right? Right! So who were the heads of these tribes? Who protected them from harm and kept the tribes flourishing? It was the Elder male of the tribe wasn’t it? So to represent these tribes, Jesus chose men… he chose men who would take his word to the 12 tribes and then to the world. That pretty much set a precedence there. If Jesus was willing to break from typical tradition on so many fronts but not this one, isn’t it saying something important?

Why do women now scoff at this? Because they have been told by secular society that wanting a family and caring for a family are trivial and meaningless and undesirable. That is a lie! Raising up the next generation of society is the most important work. It is the insurance of the survival of a “people.” But to what end or degree is this? Face it, society today is much different from the societies of the past in some ways. First if all we have no assurance that women, children and widows will be taken care of by the males of our society.

Is that by the will of God or the will of man? Let’s see… hmmmm… I seem to remember something in Acts about this… oh right, deacons. The first deacons of the church were to make sure that the widows and orphans were cared for. As I recall these were all men, put in charge of seeing to the needs of the others in the group that could not provide for themselves. So in the plan of Christ’s Church all was shared with those who could not provide for themselves.

What we really need is not women trying to act in the role of men, or society telling us this is good and right. What we need is to live by the example that was set for us. I have no doubt it would be a hard task for some. But nothing worth having ever came easy did it.

Instead of lamenting about womens rights and degrading the masculinity of men, why don’t we all strive to be who God made us to be?

As for feminism… and the original question… I imagine God would say, “My dear children, I have loved you and created you. I knew you before you were formed in your mothers womb. I made you, man and woman that you might help each other find happiness on earth and fulfill the tasks I have given you in your hearts… and for women… that IS the ultimate form of feminism… being happily satisfied with your part in society.”

Dear Blest One. I am happy you have found your niche in life and your are content with it. You are truly blest.

As far as those women who want another path to follow, one that perhaps home maker doesn’t fulfill, I support them too.

We women have been taught by secular, and religious society that if the roles we have been given are not fulfilling, we must sacrifice ourselves for the good of others, namely family and children. Certainly in an ideal world the family would come first with both men and women, all women would be happy holding this unit together and our children would be raised to continue in this pattern. All in a tight isolated group.

But women have awakened to the fact they can do even more, because they have realised they have brains, courage and strength to do differently. I had a friend in high school (in the 50s) who decided to become not a medical technician, which is what she was thinking of doing and which would have been “acceptable” by our society, but a doctor. Her one statement to me and I admired her so much for it, was "Why should I be taking orders, when I can be giving them’? She then attended St. Louis University Medical School in MO, the Sorbonne in France, had a residency at Hopkins Hospital and became a brain surgeon. While in residency, she married, became pregnant and gave birth to twins. Now that to me is a well rounded woman. Say, what you will, with support women can achieve anything, at least mentally, that men can do and they can do one thing men will never be able to do, have children, and do it ALL very well.

 

[elts1956]

On the subject of adopting nontraditional roles, I recently watched an Australian documentary called Life At 3, which gave a snapshot of the lives of selected participants in a study of around 10,000 children from birth through the formative years of childhood. One little girl’s parents were almost the polar opposite of the traditional man-as-breadwinner-while-woman-stays-home family structure. The mum was a high-flying executive in her company, and the dad was the one who stayed home during the day (although IIRC he did part-time work as a firefighter - once their daughter was in preschool, at least).

The way this was portrayed, it was all perfectly natural - as it should be, if all parties are fulfilling their preferred roles. The father appeared to be having a fantastic time raising his daughter, and was really involved with her early learning, constantly playing with her and encouraging her creativity. The mother also seemed happy with being the primary breadwinner, and apparently found her work very fulfilling. I really like to see people stepping out of the box and pursuing the goals that will make them happy, regardless of society’s expectations.

But then we still have the question, is it genes or environement that form a person? Perhaps if we were given the freedom to choose our roles in society, we would find the answer.

 

[elts1956]

On the subject of adopting nontraditional roles, I recently watched an Australian documentary called Life At 3, which gave a snapshot of the lives of selected participants in a study of around 10,000 children from birth through the formative years of childhood. One little girl’s parents were almost the polar opposite of the traditional man-as-breadwinner-while-woman-stays-home family structure. The mum was a high-flying executive in her company, and the dad was the one who stayed home during the day (although IIRC he did part-time work as a firefighter - once their daughter was in preschool, at least).

The way this was portrayed, it was all perfectly natural - as it should be, if all parties are fulfilling their preferred roles. The father appeared to be having a fantastic time raising his daughter, and was really involved with her early learning, constantly playing with her and encouraging her creativity. The mother also seemed happy with being the primary breadwinner, and apparently found her work very fulfilling. I really like to see people stepping out of the box and pursuing the goals that will make them happy, regardless of society’s expectations.

Worth as much as Edith Stein, Theresa of Avilla and a whole host of other women who were spiritual giants and didnt have children or were ever married. All of us can be spiritual giants regadless of the circumsatnces of our lives.

Good for you Estes. Great answer. Sometimes it is easy to forget how great we can become because of societal mores and roles placed on each of us that weigh our spirits down. If we only give God the chance to help us be so, spiritual greatness can happen.

 

[marietta]

elts1956:

“Say, what you will, **with support **women can achieve anything, at least mentally, that men can do and they can do one thing men will never be able to do, have children, and do it ALL very well.”

With all the disclaimers and qualifications, is this supposed to be a compliment?

marietta

 

[BlestOne]

Dear Blest One. I am happy you have found your niche in life and your are content with it. You are truly blest.

As far as those women who want another path to follow, one that perhaps home maker doesn’t fulfill, I support them too.

We women have been taught by secular, and religious society that if the roles we have been given are not fulfilling, we must sacrifice ourselves for the good of others, namely family and children. Certainly in an ideal world the family would come first with both men and women, all women would be happy holding this unit together and our children would be raised to continue in this pattern. All in a tight isolated group.

But women have awakened to the fact they can do even more, because they have realised they have brains, courage and strength to do differently. I had a friend in high school (in the 50s) who decided to become not a medical technician, which is what she was thinking of doing and which would have been “acceptable” by our society, but a doctor. Her one statement to me and I admired her so much for it, was "Why should I be taking orders, when I can be giving them’? She then attended St. Louis University Medical School in MO, the Sorbonne in France, had a residency at Hopkins Hospital and became a brain surgeon. While in residency, she married, became pregnant and gave birth to twins. Now that to me is a well rounded woman. Say, what you will, with support women can achieve anything, at least mentally, that men can do and they can do one thing men will never be able to do, have children, and do it ALL very well.

Dear Elts…what makes you think I am a stay at home mom? I have never had the opportunity. I am the Director of Information Technology and the mother of some very beautiful children (son, 21 twins 18 and daughter 16 as well as step mom to a 13 yo daughter and I have 4 saints in heaven). I never mentioned a thing about mens vs. womens mentality did I? You projected that… As for brains, courage, and strength… most women do have these in abundance. It has nothing to do with what I am saying at all… it seems that you have bought into the secular lie that having babies and being a wife is a mindless mundane task best left for the weak and stupid of the gender. I have found that being a mom and wife uses way more brain cells and takes more strength than any job I have ever had. What I did say is that women and men can be equal without being alike… we don’t fulfill the same roles and the priesthood is one of those roles.
I have worked in mostly male dominated career fields throughout my entire life and I have worked my butt off to prove I could do them. I have been a computer programmer, an electronics technician both in and out of the military, a network installer and website designer… and basically anything to do with electronics or computers… starting way back when there were no women in these fields. You don’t need to tell me about the ability of women or about courage or strength… but of all the jobs, being mom is the hardest and the most rewarding. My kids are the most important thing after my relationship with God… and raising good moral kids is a huge responsibility…definitely not for the faint of heart!

 

[Salonika]

Geeez! What century were you born in? OBEY? Cooperate, treat one another as equals, yes, but OBEY?? OBEY?? NATURAL ORDER??? NATURAL ORDER?? Maybe in Abraham’s day. Get a grip Jimmy.

and also in Abraham’s day, those of who were not marrried/not been married off would have been under the control of our father or if was dead a brother or brother-in-law.

And people wonder why we advocate feminism.

 

[elts1956]

Dear Elts…what makes you think I am a stay at home mom? I have never had the opportunity. I am the Director of Information Technology and the mother of some very beautiful children (son, 21 twins 18 and daughter 16 as well as step mom to a 13 yo daughter and I have 4 saints in heaven). I never mentioned a thing about mens vs. womens mentality did I? You projected that… As for brains, courage, and strength… most women do have these in abundance. It has nothing to do with what I am saying at all… it seems that you have bought into the secular lie that having babies and being a wife is a mindless mundane task best left for the weak and stupid of the gender. I have found that being a mom and wife uses way more brain cells and takes more strength than any job I have ever had. What I did say is that women and men can be equal without being alike… we don’t fulfill the same roles and the priesthood is one of those roles.
I have worked in mostly male dominated career fields throughout my entire life and I have worked my butt off to prove I could do them. I have been a computer programmer, an electronics technician both in and out of the military, a network installer and website designer… and basically anything to do with electronics or computers… starting way back when there were no women in these fields. You don’t need to tell me about the ability of women or about courage or strength… but of all the jobs, being mom is the hardest and the most rewarding. My kids are the most important thing after my relationship with God… and raising good moral kids is a huge responsibility…definitely not for the faint of heart!

Dear Blest One, I am sorry I misinterepreted your role in society, but you certainly didn’t clarify that, nor can you honestly say that what I stated hasn’t happened, can you? Nor, with your background, can you deny that women have a much more difficult time balancing several careers, that of their choice, IF THEY WANT THIS, in the secular world and that of homemaker, caretaker, cook and laundress and all with a smile on our face, because society TELLS us this is the way we must live.

"We women HAVE been taught by secular, and religious society that if the roles we have been given are not fulfilling, we must sacrifice ourselves for the good of others, namely family and children. Perhaps you bounded into the world in a era when you were not expected to do this. But I was not, and it has been a battle for me to try to be fulfilled in all areas all my adult life.

“CERTAINLY IN AN IDEAL WORLD the family would come first with both men and women, all women would be happy holding this unit together and our children would be raised to continue in this pattern. All in a tight isolated group.”

As to having bought into the secular lie that “homemaking and child rearing is a mindless occupation”, please do not try to tell me what I have, or have not “bought” into. You sound like one of the Trads. I have run into often on other forums whose opinion seems to be “my way, or the high way”. If you interpreted my post as saying the above, in quotes, is what I meant, then that is your interpretation, not mine.

 

[Dale_M]

elts1956:

Say, what you will, with support

women can achieve anything, at least mentally, that men can do and they can do one thing men will never be able to do, have children, and do it ALL very well.
With all the disclaimers and qualifications, is this supposed to be a compliment?

Marietta, I think Elts was simply being honest. In general, men are physically stronger than women. And any accomplishments we have in life will be achieved with the support of others. The myth of the self-made man has always been a fiction.

 

[elts1956]

elts1956:

“Say, what you will, **with support **women can achieve anything, at least mentally, that men can do and they can do one thing men will never be able to do, have children, and do it ALL very well.”

With all the disclaimers and qualifications, is this supposed to be a compliment?

marietta

Well Marietta, did you take it as being derogitory? As Dale M said, I was stating an honest objective view. Women aren’t physically as strong as most men. So our one area of equality in doing equal work for EQUAL pay is mental. Would you say that is not being truthful? How or why you read what I said as being disrespectful, I don’t understand. Blunt, maybe, but honest.

 

[elts1956]

elts1956:

“Say, what you will, **with support **women can achieve anything, at least mentally, that men can do and they can do one thing men will never be able to do, have children, and do it ALL very well.”

With all the disclaimers and qualifications, is this supposed to be a compliment?

marietta

Marietta, I think Elts was simply being honest. In general, men are physically stronger than women. And any accomplishments we have in life will be achieved with the support of others. The myth of the self-made man has always been a fiction.

You are absolutely right Dale. No one is an island and ALL of us need the support of friends and family at one time, or another. Many thanks.

 

[Telemachus]

Dear Elts…what makes you think I am a stay at home mom? I have never had the opportunity. I am the Director of Information Technology and the mother of some very beautiful children (son, 21 twins 18 and daughter 16 as well as step mom to a 13 yo daughter and I have 4 saints in heaven). I never mentioned a thing about mens vs. womens mentality did I? You projected that… As for brains, courage, and strength… most women do have these in abundance. It has nothing to do with what I am saying at all… it seems that you have bought into the secular lie that having babies and being a wife is a mindless mundane task best left for the weak and stupid of the gender. I have found that being a mom and wife uses way more brain cells and takes more strength than any job I have ever had. What I did say is that women and men can be equal without being alike… we don’t fulfill the same roles and the priesthood is one of those roles.
I have worked in mostly male dominated career fields throughout my entire life and I have worked my butt off to prove I could do them. I have been a computer programmer, an electronics technician both in and out of the military, a network installer and website designer… and basically anything to do with electronics or computers… starting way back when there were no women in these fields. You don’t need to tell me about the ability of women or about courage or strength… but of all the jobs, being mom is the hardest and the most rewarding. My kids are the most important thing after my relationship with God… and raising good moral kids is a huge responsibility…definitely not for the faint of heart!

BlestOne: Thanks for posting here. I really like reading what you have to say. As a man, I can say exactly what you’re saying, and it doesn’t matter one lick. But for a working mother like yourself (like my mother too), feminists have to be quiet and listen.

The rest of you (including myself): After reading BlestOne’s posts, just go home people. I’ve been reading the rest of this thread, and we’re all just talking past one another. It’s “How dare you say that, feminism is about this” and then “How dare you say this, feminism is about that” back-and-forth.

What’s especially funny is the little side chats that some of the feminist posters have been having, “circlin’ th’ waguns” on a Catholic forum. Give it a rest. And I’m disappointed at some of the Catholic posters that have been on here, bringing female priests and abortion into the works. Of course these issues are linked, but bringing this stuff up just added to the confusion. As Jimmy Akin is wont to say, “more heat than light” has been generated, and it seems to always go this way with such threads.

It’s as simple as this: if you’re a Catholic, you can’t honestly ascribe to the present-day ideology that is generally referred to as “Feminism”; if you’re a Feminist, believe whatever you want, it doesn’t matter anyways. You’ve got your religion, and we’ve got ours. The twain shall ne’er meet.

God Bless,
Telemachus

 

[Sair]

As a woman, I am quite satisfied to know that my role and purpose is different than a man’s purpose.

Do you believe then, that all women, of all different personalities and abilities, have exactly the same purpose in life? And that this is also true of all men?

Women are tasked with bringing new life into the world and caring for all in their family while men are tasked with the overall protection of that family… There are so many instances where the folly of role reversal is explored yet some people never see the connection.

I’m not sure I understand how role reversal is a folly. Nor even necessarily a reversal, in any real sense. People should feel free to fulfil whatever social role is best served by their individual abilities and interests.

While women were given these opportunities, the Church in her infinite wisdom, has never forgotten that our primary drive and nature is to bear children and care for our families. It is a product of secular society that tells us that we should deny our nature and insist that we be treated like men. Why buy into an idea that is contrary to our nature?

It is demonstrably not a fact that all women are driven to become mothers. The numbers of women who are currently choosing never to have children should be evidence enough of that. In the past, most women became mothers because their only other options were entering a convent or becoming objects of ridicule - the “old maids” of a (thankfully) bygone era. It came to be assumed that all women desired to become mothers, just because the majority of them did as a result of circumstance - and the fact that society offered them almost no option. Not all of them necessarily wanted to fulfil that social role. If all women were so completely fulfilled and satisfied by being housewives and mothers, why were so many of them taking valium during the supposedly idyllic era of family values that was the 1950s and early '60s?

Being a parent is a vocation, and not everyone feels called to that vocation. We see examples all the time of what happens when people who are not suited to being parents go against their nature and have children. It is always the children who suffer most, of course.

Interestingly, I have never heard anyone assert that all men are driven to become fathers…

And yet, he appointed all men as his apostles… not even his own mother was an apostle. Why do you think that is?

My guess would be that, in keeping with the human part of his nature, Jesus was a product of his time. Considering the low esteem in which women were held during this period of history, how fast and how far would the message of Christianity have spread if women had attempted to preach it? Choosing men for the task was just a means to an end.

 

[fix]

Dear Blest One. I am happy you have found your niche in life and your are content with it. You are truly blest.

As far as those women who want another path to follow, one that perhaps home maker doesn’t fulfill, I support them too.

We women have been taught by secular, and religious society that if the roles we have been given are not fulfilling, we must sacrifice ourselves for the good of others, namely family and children. Certainly in an ideal world the family would come first with both men and women, all women would be happy holding this unit together and our children would be raised to continue in this pattern. All in a tight isolated group.

But women have awakened to the fact they can do even more, because they have realised they have brains, courage and strength to do differently. I had a friend in high school (in the 50s) who decided to become not a medical technician, which is what she was thinking of doing and which would have been “acceptable” by our society, but a doctor. Her one statement to me and I admired her so much for it, was "Why should I be taking orders, when I can be giving them’? She then attended St. Louis University Medical School in MO, the Sorbonne in France, had a residency at Hopkins Hospital and became a brain surgeon. While in residency, she married, became pregnant and gave birth to twins. Now that to me is a well rounded woman. Say, what you will, with support women can achieve anything, at least mentally, that men can do and they can do one thing men will never be able to do, have children, and do it ALL very well.

I underlined the portion that jumped out as I was reading it. Is it really all about power in the end?

 

[Fitswimmer]

I underlined the portion that jumped out as I was reading it. Is it really all about power in the end?

For some people-of both genders-I would definately agree. There are men that want to keep their wives at home and under their thumb because they like the power of having a human being completely and totally dependant on them. There are men and women who want careers because of the power it brings them.

then there are others of both genders that just enjoy their choice of lifestyle-whether it’s staying home and raising a family or working outside the home and building a career. I would like to see women (and men!) feel free to choose either vocation without being ripped apart.

 

[fix]

For some people-of both genders-I would definately agree. There are men that want to keep their wives at home and under their thumb because they like the power of having a human being completely and totally dependant on them. There are men and women who want careers because of the power it brings them.

then there are others of both genders that just enjoy their choice of lifestyle-whether it’s staying home and raising a family or working outside the home and building a career. I would like to see women (and men!) feel free to choose either vocation without being ripped apart.

Well, if people define feminism as equality with men as in grasping at the worst attributes men sometimes display then I would not call that an advancement in any way.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Well, if people define feminism as equality with men as in grasping at the worst attributes men sometimes display then I would not call that an advancement in any way.

Neither would I, but if people define feminism as the freedom to choose one’s vocation in life despite traditional societal expectations then I have no problem with it. If a woman wants to work outside the home because she finds fulfillment in it-more power to her. If a man wants to stay at home and raise his children because he finds his fulfillment there-more power to him.

I don’t think people should be placed in little boxes, God has made us all unique and we should rejoice in that uniqueness!