What does God make of feminism?

[wildleafblower]

God is undoubtedly entitled to my worship and my obedience. That he seeks it from me is clearly beyond our knowing. God needs absolutely nothing!

Hi SpiritMeadow

God needs us. We are God’s children:

**The life of the children of God **

"Since by your **obedience to the truth **you have purified yourselves so that you can experience the genuine love of brothers, love each other intensely from the heart; for your new birth was not from any perishable seed but from imperishable seed, the living and enduring Word of God. For all humanity is grass, and all its beauty like the wild flower’s. As grass withers, the flower fades, but the Word of the Lord remains for ever. And this Word is the Good News that has been brought to you.

Rid yourselves, then, of all spite, deceit, hypocrisy, envy and carping criticism. Like new-born babies all your longing should be for milk - the unadulterated spiritual milk - which will help you to grow up to salvation, at any rate if you have tasted that the Lord is good.

He is the living stone, rejected by human beings but chosen by God and precious to him; set yourselves close to him so that you, too, may be living stones making a spiritual house as a holy priesthood to offer the spiritual sacrifices made acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. As scripture says: Now I am laying a stone in Zion, a chosen, precious cornerstone and no one who relies on this will be brought to disgrace. To you believers it brings honour. But for unbelievers, it is rather a stone which the builders rejected that became a cornerstone, a stumbling stone, a rock to trip people up. They stumble over it because they do not believe in the Word; it was the fate in store for them.

But you are a chosen race, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation, a people to be a personal possession to sing the praises of** God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light**. Once you were a non-people and now you are the People of God; once you were outside his pity; now you have received pity."

From the first letter of the apostle Peter (1, 22 - 2, 10)

Prayer

Almighty and ever-living God,
your Spirit made us your children,
confident to call you Father.
Increase your Spirit of love within us
and bring us to our promised inheritance.
Grant this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son,
who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever.

Prepared by the Spiritual Theology Department
of the Pontifical University of the Holy Cross
vatican.va/spirit/documents/spirit_20010417_pietro-apostolo_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/spirit/documents/spirit_20010417_pietro-apostolo_en.html

 

[marietta]

Telemachus writes:

“Women deciding what they want to do with their lives free of coercion? No, that’s just fine by me.”

Would this include artificial birth control? Abortion? Maintaining separate checking and savings accounts and investments? If your 12-year-old daughter is stricken with spinal meningitis, who takes time off from a lucrative job to care for her? Would you assume that, since your wife has more natural ability to care for and comfort the child, this responsibility should naturally fall on her?

Nothing is all-black or all-white. This includes the priesthood. Even the references Eric_Olsen provided tell us that nowhere in the Bible does it specifically say, “Boys Club - Keep Out!” It is a long-held and jealously-guarded tradition that the priesthood be open to men only, but I don’t see where Jesus said, “This is an honor open exclusively to men”.

My problem is not the messenger. If women want to pursue the priesthood in the Catholic Church, then get on with it. My problem lies in the message itself, particularly in the way it is manipulated in order to corral the faithful. My experiences in CCD as a kid and a teenager forever turned me about 170 degrees away from the teachings of the Church. I keep reading post after post here on this forum and there is such vitriol and name-calling that the message is lost. Catholics here feel *attacked *even is an innocent poster asks how he or she came to a particular conclusion. Those who reply with gentility and a willingness to represent Christ’s message without rancor are few and far between.

Why would a woman even want to be a Catholic priest? It seems like such a limited gig.

marietta

 

[wildleafblower]

Hi Marrieta

The priests of the Church are men. As a Roman Catholic woman I wouldn’t attend a church where women were priests. I’ve lost tract of the years that I’ve helped Roman Catholic priests. They are phenomenal! They tend to God’s children.

Here’s a great article to read:
Congregation for the Clergy
Priesthood
a greater love
International Symposium on the Thirtieth Anniversary of the
Promulgation of the Conciliar Decree
Presbyterorum Ordinis
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cclergy/documents/rc_con_cclergy_doc_28101995_intsy_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...nts/rc_con_cclergy_doc_28101995_intsy_en.html

Marietta, I’m sorry to hear of your experiences in CCD. I did teach it and lead youth groups. I recall a project with 15 kids when we painted on the outside of the rectory wall a gigantic picture of Jesus holding a child with a rainbow overhead. And, a hugh tree with birds, flowers, animals and fishes surrounding Him. I also took my class on wonderful hikes along the cliffs where we all held hands as we bellowed in joyful song as the seagulls flitted about. CCD class was often taught outside under the blue sky with the priest eventually showing up to greet and bless us. Everyone had a great time! I wish you had been there.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Not everything has a gray area either Marietta.
I think it’s penis envy of the women and nuns who insist that they be ordained. Not to mention, they are embracing the radical fem ism of the 60’s of Betty Friedan.

Real feminists don’t promote gender inclusiveness, de-masculinity of men, artificiality of gender roles and abortion.

Nothing in the Bible suggests that Jesus ordained women either.
Again, you seem to not grasp the notion of MOTHER church and Christ the BRIDEGROOM.

Telemachus writes:

“Women deciding what they want to do with their lives free of coercion? No, that’s just fine by me.”

Would this include artificial birth control? Abortion? Maintaining separate checking and savings accounts and investments? If your 12-year-old daughter is stricken with spinal meningitis, who takes time off from a lucrative job to care for her? Would you assume that, since your wife has more natural ability to care for and comfort the child, this responsibility should naturally fall on her?

Nothing is all-black or all-white. This includes the priesthood. Even the references Eric_Olsen provided tell us that nowhere in the Bible does it specifically say, “Boys Club - Keep Out!” It is a long-held and jealously-guarded tradition that the priesthood be open to men only, but I don’t see where Jesus said, “This is an honor open exclusively to men”.

My problem is not the messenger. If women want to pursue the priesthood in the Catholic Church, then get on with it. My problem lies in the message itself, particularly in the way it is manipulated in order to corral the faithful. My experiences in CCD as a kid and a teenager forever turned me about 170 degrees away from the teachings of the Church. I keep reading post after post here on this forum and there is such vitriol and name-calling that the message is lost. Catholics here feel *attacked *even is an innocent poster asks how he or she came to a particular conclusion. Those who reply with gentility and a willingness to represent Christ’s message without rancor are few and far between.

Why would a woman even want to be a Catholic priest? It seems like such a limited gig.

marietta

 

[Eric_Olsen]

So, girls, if you cannot bear children, you are SOL here - you have no place, no role, no identity. Maybe it’s time to consider what the Episcopal church has to offer in the way of realizing your full potential as far as carrying the message of Jesus Christ to His people.

marietta

Whats wrong with being a nun?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

personal experience.
And just look at the Episcopalians.
Letting women be ordained did “wonders” for that church.

Well your personal experiences hardly count as an indictment of all women who preach. Women preached in the early church. And I’m unaware of what terrible thing has occured from having women ordained in the episcopal faith. That you clearly dispise the practice is not a evidence. I cannot imagine why you have such an obviously mean attitude about this. Does this extent to any and all places where women have positions of power and leadership or just preaching?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

ummm…Marietta. When the Catholic Church ordains women as priests…then the gates of hell will have prevailed. Again…look at what women priests have done to the protestant denominations. I have been there and experienced it. Sorry but it was more than a “few” women who were radical feminists.

What a shameful thing to say. As if you are now the definer of truth. You have proven nothing that has happened to protestant denominations, just stated a blanket condemnation without evidence. That you cannot stand women being preachers is obvious. A fact or two might be worth more than your opinion, however.

And you are comparing apples and oranges with your analogies below and please don’t start preaching about tolerance. Christ’s apostles were men. Men and women play distinct roles in the Catholic church.

This is simply not true. There is every reason to believe that Mary Magdalen and others were considered as preaching women in their time. Jesus first appeared to women who went and were the first to preach the Good News of his resurrection. That some men in retelling the stories assumed they were not of the full stature of some of their bretheran is not their fault.

Women who want to be priests do it for political reasons. If you listen to their sermons, most are bitter women and preach it from the pulpit.

That is simply a clear personal opinion. First yuou have no basis for knowing what is in someone else’s heart. Second ou have not met clearly all the women who desire to be priests. You denigrate the faith of hundreds of others because you personally cannot stomach this idea. What women who are priests have you been listening to BTW? It is so simplistic to dismiss a entire class by using odious pejorative words such as bitter. That you hate women in ecclesiastical position is clear, let’s keep it clear that that is your opinion based on nothing so far by again your opinion.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

The Original Catholic Encyclopedia, as referenced by Eric_Olsen, offers us this enlightened view of the role of women in today’s society and today’s Church:

“This may strike some as unfair, but realize that God has given women other gifts that he has not given to men. For example, women bring the body of Christ (souls) into the world one birth at a time. Men do not have this privilege. Priests bring the body of Christ (Eucharist) into the world one Mass at a time—a gift reserved to them, acting in the person of Christ.”

Motherhood as a trade-off for priesthood? There are no words to describe how lame this argument is.

So, girls, if you cannot bear children, you are SOL here - you have no place, no role, no identity. Maybe it’s time to consider what the Episcopal church has to offer in the way of realizing your full potential as far as carrying the message of Jesus Christ to His people.

marietta

You know, when I was in graduate school, and we were discussing the issue of women priests, Father brought a letter than accompanied the “definitive” answer to the issue. He read it to us. It was from the Vatican as I recall, and was sent to all practicing priests and those in teaching positions.

It said, that the findings on the issue were not biblical, indeed the vatican could find no biblical prohibition against women priests. The determination was based soley on the fact that all recorded history of the Church seemed to suggest that only men had ever been priests. It was thought that this “tradition” was best left alone. The matter was considered closed.

I find it interesting that all priests have always been men so we should continue that practice. Well, duh, of course that was the case. The Church arose during the time of patriarchy. Paul had to slow women down in several churches because it was found so unseemly by Roman authorities and was making it more difficult for the church to exist. Yet the scriptures undeniably suggest that women were in roles that are prohibited now. There are references to deconesses for instance, though I’m sure excuses are now made to suggest that doesn’t mean what it says. Women in the NT often preached the Good News, even the woman at the well went and preached Jesus to her neighbors. Mary Magdalen was the first to preach the Good news of resurrection.

I have never had a big issue with it either way for a long time. But I do know a sister or two, who never suggested it of course, but somehow you can tell, that they were so very drawn to this, yet denied it. And I do feel terribly sad for them. To be called in such a way and to have no means of redress is deeply distressing to me. I wonder if God means for our deepest yearnings to serve him in this way to be denied based on “that’s the way its always been rhetoric.”

I have no doubt that some of our most famous women saints who wrote so extensively used this outlet as their only means of “preaching”. That the Church ignores this vast talent is to be lamented. Surely Jesus relationship to women, expecially those hwo were not “acceptable” in society for a variety of reasons, suggest perhaps that he too tried in vain to strike down some old stereotypes.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Not everything has a gray area either Marietta.
I think it’s penis envy of the women and nuns who insist that they be ordained. Not to mention, they are embracing the radical fem ism of the 60’s of Betty Friedan.

Well i do believe that’s a first. In 30 years I don’t recall any man having the audacity to suggest that the only thing wrong with women is their desire to be men. How very OLD OLD OLD fashioned of you. ROFL. Nothing more need be said. You have made yourself and who you are quite clear.

 

[Kaninchen]

All this moaning about feminism really does seem like the intellectual equivalent of a craft like hand-loom weaving - interesting in its way and very important at one time but that’s before technology together with capitalist development and its consequent social upheavals left it all far behind.

 

[marietta]

Eric_Olsen:

“Whats wrong with being a nun?” you wonder. Nothing is wrong with being a nun, if that is what a woman wants to do with her life. My aunt was a Sister of Charity for 70 years. She entered the convent at age 21. Her father, a stout, devout Roman Catholic, wept when she told him what she intended to do. He saw potential in her, and envisioned options open to her, that she could not acknowledge due to her calling. And in 1930 it was extremely emotionally risky to defy one’s father. Although she never regretted it, he did.

You go on to argue, “I think it’s penis envy of the women and nuns who insist that they be ordained. Not to mention, they are embracing the radical feminism of the 60’s of Betty Friedan.” The struggle for women’s rights did not begin with Betty Friedan, nor will it end in your lifetime. To suggest that a nun, for heaven’s sake, would suffer “penis envy” should buy you about, oh, 1000 days in Purgatory. It is inexcusable. Women seeking a better life for themselves do not suffer from “penis envy”. Men who have a visceral fear of women becoming empowered suffer from castration anxiety.

“Also - I have seen what women ministers brought to protestant denominations,” you say, “and it is watered down theology thanks to politically correct inclusive language.” How do you think a large portion of the female population has felt, sitting in a Catholic Church Sunday after Sunday after Sunday, being read to by men, letters and such ostensibly written by men, about the Prodigal Son or Cain and Abel or Moses or the 12 male apostles? The Catholic Church has maintained a patriarchy in the face of the women’s movement and has alienated a good many of us right out its doors. I have no doubt you relish this thought, but we are still present, many of us contaminated ever after with the inextinguishable core of being “less than” due to the boys’ club mentality that rushes down from the Vatican. You must be supremely grateful that your Catholic Church will not ever budge on the issue of the antiquated roles of women in the Church. What a relief that must be!

“Women priests is the assumption that the church is not the bride of Christ,” you declare. “ In the CATHOLIC church, the church is the bride and Christ is the groom. Priests are representatives of Christ.” Why aren’t the priests groomsmen? Hey, every person who believes that Jesus was the Son of God is a representative of Christ. Even you. Do you think Christ would look kindly on your rancor?

Your masterpiece: “Real feminists don’t promote gender inclusiveness, de-masculinity of men, artificiality of gender roles and abortion.” First of all, what is a “real” feminist? What is gender inclusiveness? How is a man de-masculinized? How are gender roles made to be artificial? And, of course, “real” feminists may not promote abortion, but millions of us endorse the legal option to choose abortion.

“And you are comparing apples and oranges with your analogies below and please don’t start preaching about tolerance.” Far be it from me to even attempt to preach tolerance to you.

**Kaninchen: **

“All this moaning about feminism really does seem like the intellectual equivalent of a craft like hand-loom weaving - interesting in its way and very important at one time but that’s before technology together with capitalist development and its consequent social upheavals left it all far behind.” At the risk of de-masculinizing you, if you can’t stand the moaning, get out of the kitchen.

wildleafblower:

God does not need us. We may need Him, but He needs nothing. If He were needy, He would not be God.

marietta

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I am a somewhat young woman (38).
I was born I guess during the feminist movement.

I am grateful for many things, I can have a career that I want, I can study anything I want. I can have children and be their mom. I can vote. I can run for office if I want. I can own property, have credit cards etc.

But, I am also a revert Catholic. And I tend to be Orthodox, in the sense that I believe the Catechism of the Catholic Church to be true and correct, and frankly quite beautiful.

Being a priest is not only about preaching the gospel. I can preach the gospel. Mother Angelica is a wonderful example of a woman preaching the gospel, because of her network many people learn about the Catholic faith, and have come to the Catholic faith.

Being a priest is also about the Eucharist, the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus. Jesus passed the priesthood on to the 12 apostles, who were all men. He didn’t include women. There is no evidence of this. That was His decision, not mine. He could have chosen his own mother, to be ordained…but He didn’t.

So, when I go to Mass…I want the real presence. A female “priest” is not capable of giving me the Eucharist.

The Pope couldn’t change this…it isn’t up to him.

 

[Kaninchen]

At the risk of de-masculinizing you, if you can’t stand the moaning, get out of the kitchen.

Erm? I make an observation about the silliness of people moaning about feminism and I’m at risk of de-masculinization by somebody’s use of a cliché?

[hint: check people’s profiles before saying things like that, then you might know who is male and who is female]

 

[Salonika]

Except, I’m a man, so any definition of feminism by me is inherently wrong, I suppose.

Don’t think anything I’ve said suggests this. Men can be feminists - those who supported women getting the vote because the believed all adults had the right to vote were feminists. Same for men who supported women’s education for the same reasons. Same for men who now support choices for women.

Achieving what? That’s what I don’t understand. You live in a society where there is almost no judgement concerning people’s choices, right or wrong. Feminism has won if that’s the case.

Only got to look on some of the threads to see this isn’t the case. I want to see everyone, men and women, able to make their choices free of coercion.

personally would like to have a wife that would put our children ahead of her career

Fine as long as the women you married knew this before you married, realised the implications and you were prepared to at least consider altering the arrangement if circumstances changed.

I’ll always be of the opinion that the woman, not the man, is best-suited to staying home and taking care of children.

Nurturing is on a continuum, and so some men will be further up the line than some women. Also there may be other reasons why a couple decide that the guy will stay home eg his work is more easily done from home.

So, I guess this is my question. Do you believe that God established a “natural order” – that is, an unchanging form of relations and behaviors – concerning men and women?

Yes, relationships and behaviours based on freedom, respect and people being able to be who they really are. No, in the sense that there is a blueprint for men and a blueprnt for women, to which they must conform.

what actually distinguishes men and women besides physical characteristics? Or are they simply interchangable?

What men and women have in common is much greater than what is different. No they are not intrerchangeable in the same way as individuals are not interchangeable.

 

[Salonika]

I think it’s penis envy of the women and nuns who insist that they be ordained. Not to mention, they are embracing the radical feminism of the 60’s of Betty Friedan.

No, I think most of them feel they are called to the ministry/priesthood because the want to preach God’s love for everyone.

Also I think that what some men think of as as penis envy is actually feeling called to perform roles previously restricted to males. Don’t see why people should consider that men are being demasculinsed because women are taking roles only men could take on in the past.

Real feminists don’t promote gender inclusiveness, de-masculinity of men, artificiality of gender roles and abortion.

I believe real feminists DO promote gender inclusivess, the dignity of men and roles for both men and based on choice and attributes. Real feminists also believe that decisions on moral issues should be decided by those involved after full consideration of ALL the factors.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Well your personal experiences hardly count as an indictment of all women who preach. Women preached in the early church. And I’m unaware of what terrible thing has occured from having women ordained in the episcopal faith. That you clearly dispise the practice is not a evidence. I cannot imagine why you have such an obviously mean attitude about this. Does this extent to any and all places where women have positions of power and leadership or just preaching?

so you believe ordaining wome in the RCC is just going to be rainbows and butterflies?

 

[Eric_Olsen]

No, I think most of them feel they are called to the ministry/priesthood because the want to preach God’s love for everyone.

yeah and too bad thats not what happens 99% of the time.

Also I think that what some men think of as as penis envy is actually feeling called to perform roles previously restricted to males. Don’t see why people should consider that men are being demasculinsed because women are taking roles only men could take on in the past.

because women who think they are being called really do not understand church doctrine of arrogantly reject it.
Ordination is not a right…its a privelege.

I believe real feminists DO promote gender inclusivess, the dignity of men and roles for both men and based on choice and attributes. Real feminists also believe that decisions on moral issues should be decided by those involved after full consideration of ALL the factors.

Real feminists are confortable with their own feminity and do not need language changed or modified to be gender neutral. The ones promoting gender inclusiveness are the betty friedan types who are insecure with themselves.
God decides what is moral and just…not men and women.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

Amen!

I am a somewhat young woman (38).
I was born I guess during the feminist movement.

I am grateful for many things, I can have a career that I want, I can study anything I want. I can have children and be their mom. I can vote. I can run for office if I want. I can own property, have credit cards etc.

But, I am also a revert Catholic. And I tend to be Orthodox, in the sense that I believe the Catechism of the Catholic Church to be true and correct, and frankly quite beautiful.

Being a priest is not only about preaching the gospel. I can preach the gospel. Mother Angelica is a wonderful example of a woman preaching the gospel, because of her network many people learn about the Catholic faith, and have come to the Catholic faith.

Being a priest is also about the Eucharist, the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus. Jesus passed the priesthood on to the 12 apostles, who were all men. He didn’t include women. There is no evidence of this. That was His decision, not mine. He could have chosen his own mother, to be ordained…but He didn’t.

So, when I go to Mass…I want the real presence. A female “priest” is not capable of giving me the Eucharist.

The Pope couldn’t change this…it isn’t up to him.

 

[thomfra]

yep - and it still continues today. I spent time on the protestant side of the church and have seen female “ministers” in all their radical feminist glory.

That must have been very confronting for you Eric.

How should a woman be so that she isn’t too feminist for you?

 

[wildleafblower]

God does not need us. We may need Him, but He needs nothing. If He were needy, He would not be God.
marietta

Marietta, you state, “God does not need us. We may need Him, but He needs nothing. If He were needy, He would not be God.” I disagree with you Marietta. Here is one reason; read what was said by the Vatican:Holy See’s Cardinal Geraldo Majella Agnelo, Archbishop of São Salvador da Bahia (1) as President of the Episcopal Conference (BRAZIL), SYNODUS EPISCOPORUM BULLETIN, XI ORDINARY GENERAL ASSEMBLY, OF THE SYNOD OF BISHOPS, 2-23 October 2005, The Eucharist: Source and Summit of the Life and Mission of the Church)(2)

**I refer to no. 33 of the Instrumentum laboris where the reception of the Eucharistic mystery among the faithful is dealt with, and which recalls the “profound spiritual meaning to the sufferings of Catholic Christians in these lands”.​

We know how, from the first centuries of Christianity, special attention was paid to the faithful who could not attend in the celebration of the Eucharistic sacrifice, the reason for which the conservation of the Eucharist was instituted to meet the various needs for this impediment.​

Every person is subject to, sooner or later, some experience of suffering. I would like to underline the situation of the sick, prisoners and the elderly persons who cannot walk autonomously.​

I mention, here, the opportunity and the need to prepare the lay faithful that can promote visits by a priest for sacramental reconciliation and then continue the pastoral care by bringing Eucharistic communion*.​

Today, many persons feel alone because of the lack of close relatives, or because they have been placed in permanent nursing homes, or due to the limitations of being bed-ridden without the possibility of receiving visits from parents, friends or even rejected because they are no longer productive.​

In a world with so many means of communication available, often people, even if not sick, live in isolation and in silence.​

However, in a moment of suffering, people become sensitive and need an encounter with the manifestation of goodness and mercy of God. Thus God needs our arms and our testimony to make real the experience of his love. *

As a lay faithful (Roman Catholic woman) I have been prepared by a priest to ‘continue the pastorial care by bringing Eucharistic communion to the sick and elderly persons who cannot walk autonomously’.

1. vatican.va/news_services/press/documentazione/documents/cardinali_biografie/cardinali_bio_agnelo_gm_en.html
   http://www.vatican.va/news_services...ali_biografie/cardinali_bio_agnelo_gm_en.html
2. vatican.va/news_services/press/sinodo/documents/bollettino_21_xi-ordinaria-2005/02_inglese/b18_02.html
   http://www.vatican.va/news_services...o_21_xi-ordinaria-2005/02_inglese/b18_02.html

And as to ABC[Artificial Birth Control], well, you are going to have a hard row to hoe convincing even men that this is a bad thing if you arent’ Catholic. 85% of catholics use it, and 98% of the pop. at large believes it is a good thing.

SpiritMeadow, you state, “And as to ABC [Artifical Birth Control], well, you are going to have a hard row to hoe convincing even men that this is a bad thing if you arent’ Catholic. 85% of catholics use it, and 98% of the pop. at large believes it is a good thing.” If you don’t have a source for that claim then you need to retract it. I think you have made a bogus claim. It would be impossible to determine through a survey how many people within the entire Catholic population, let alone all the people of the United States use ABC. The Central Intelligence Agency(CIA)website(1) states that within the United States the population is 303,824,646 (July 2008 est.) and 23.9% of the population are Roman Catholic. I honestly don’t think it would be possible to interview everyone let alone those who are Roman Catholic, which include babies and young children!

1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html