What does God make of feminism?

[edwest2]

It would seem obvious that, for some people, that is very much the case.

Perhaps you might have saved that for a reply to a Christian poster - I just move into ‘here we go again’ mode.

The thing is, edwest, that virtually every response from you tends to come over to me as: “50’s and 60’s - The Movie: Part XVIII - The Wrath of Ed”. Where “damned hippies/feminists!” (or whatever) stands in for any kind of social/cultural (never mind economic) analysis.

Where, to take a few examples, is there any consideration of the the Second World War and its effects? They were considerable in America and enormous in Europe? Where is any analysis of the Cold War on social attitudes? Where is any analysis of the changing nature of the economy?

No, to Ed, it’s all hippies and feminists.

So American Catholics are, for example, going to dis-invent technology and return the economy to the 1950’s. Or not.

“dis-invent technology”? Catholics will be encouraged to follow Church teaching as outlined in Humanae Vitae, all other technology will remain. The fog is being lifted on that. There is now, a greater emphasis on sexual morality, which, by the way, stands at the heart of most of the hot button issues of today.

My father was a World War II vet. It was his generation that had kids in the 1950s. It was his generation that only wanted a place where bullets weren’t flying and bombs weren’t falling on their heads.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Salonika]

So, it is not that his (edwest2) analysis is wrong it is that you do not like it?

At best, it is only a partial analysis and at worst it is not an analysis but the 50’s and 60’s seem through a particularly set of eyes.

I would be more interested in seeing an anaylsis of the why feminism arose and had such an effect in the post war era. Edwest’ comment about the desires of the World War 2 vets would be part of this anaysis.

Without such an analysis we run the risk of undoing the positive side of the changes of the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s. Modern technology alone makes going back to the immediate post war world impossible.

 

[marietta]

edwest2:

I’m sorry, but your posts are hilarious! They’re cute in a dated sort of way.

“However, for Catholics, there is hope,” you assure us.

For Catholics only?

marietta

 

[edwest2]

At best, it is only a partial analysis and at worst it is not an analysis but the 50’s and 60’s seem through a particularly set of eyes.

I would be more interested in seeing an anaylsis of the why feminism arose and had such an effect in the post war era. Edwest’ comment about the desires of the World War 2 vets would be part of this anaysis.

Without such an analysis we run the risk of undoing the positive side of the changes of the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s. Modern technology alone makes going back to the immediate post war world impossible.

Everything I’ve written can be verified quite easily. I have read books by others with different viewpoints, their conclusions are essentially the same.

I study the history of technology. So-called “modern” technology is not very modern. A television report admitted that contemporary washing machines may have different styling but are essentially the same as those used in the 1950s. Airport radars still use tubes manufactured in the late 1950s. The world’s best machine gun design dates back to a German World War II model. Technology does not advance just because the date changes on the calendar. If something works, it stays in service. Train lines dating back to the Civil War are still in use.

The desires of the World War II vets were simple: peace, quiet, work and family. This was life. The concept of having enough or being content was another key feature. Everyone I knew would have liked more but they knew the meaning of having enough.

Undoing the positive of the 50s, 60s and 70s? Please identify these things.

Modern technologies are powerful but each generation must be taught. The internet is not the World Wide Web but the Wild Wild West. A lawless place with few sheriffs. Other technologies have less utility than advertised. Cell phones are significant but over used. Somehow, throughout most of the 20th Century, people survived without them. A power blackout a few years back rendered most modern technology useless.

Feminism arose as part of a planned social engineering project. It was unBiblical and divisive. It hurt people and did not heal. It lacked compassion, trust, reconciliation and the possibility of forgiveness.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Salonika]

“Feminism” suggests a separate, exclusivistic agenda. For example, WHAT IF…the feminst in charge is an atheist???

Would depend on the feminist I would say. In the same way as there are a range views within any group, there are a range of opinions amongst atheists. King Alfred and those on this thread with similar views are likely to find supporters among athests and so are us with the opposing views.

 

[Salonika]

edwest2:

Undoing the positive of the 50s, 60s and 70s? Please identify these things.

Think these have already been well mentioned on this thread. But I will reiterate what to me is the most important was CHOICE for women to decide on their role based on factors other than economics eg ability, personal characteristics and not to be (as) criticised for them.

So some of us decided not to marry and have children as much for the benefit of the man we did not marry and the children we did not have.

As I agree with some other posters who have said we are going round in circles in some of the discusssion on this threas I am not going to respond/take the bait on this aspect of the discussion again. New and other aspects - yes.

 

[edwest2]

Choice. I see. Without a proper yardstick, as I call it, to determine if a choice is a good or a bad one, it is not as useful as it could be.

I have always been for equal access to the workplace and equal pay, but this was not the goal of the feminists, not the primary goal.

Peace,
Ed

 

[elts1956]

Not so, Bob. The feminism that created Ms. as a separate title for women who were “liberated” from the patriarchal society, the patriarchal Church and from the enemy, men, is what I’m talking about. To have sex when they want with who they want whenever they want - I think I’ve mentioned Sex and the City often enough. I’ve also written that if they (feminists) can’t trust men, then they should start some sort of self-funded commune and just spend time enjoying each other’s company.

I’m all for equal pay for equal work and equal access to jobs based on ability. I have no problem with that. But just look up the National Organization for Women.

God bless,
Ed

Don’t bother looking up NOW. Personally, I dislike most of what they say. To me feminism or masculinism either one means each of us having the opportunity to actualize our potential given to us by God. This means, no unaccepted role by any individual, which both men and women have been subject to for centuries. For instance many women consider raising a family a career, but when is the first time you have heard a man saying raising a family is a career? I really feel the male half of society has the greater opportunity to develop skills, gifts, perceptions etc. than the female half. Women are in a conundrum. We want to be mothers, wives, companions to our husbands etc., but it is also frustrating to be limited by societal roles if we want to experience other forms of personal growth outside the family circle. Sometimes in having to make a choice, full attention to family, or full attention to career outside the home, we feel pulled apart, dissatisfied in both arenas. To me this is a no win situation. By nature women are meant to be mothers and care givers. This deals with the emotional part of our nature. But then comes another drive, to be more than what nature intends. Since I am not a man, I can’t see that a man has to fight his nature to be successful in business or career. Emotionally, I am not sure where the male species stands. Enlighten me. Thanks.

 

[wapsi]

Technology does not advance just because the date changes on the calendar. If something works, it stays in service.

That isn’t quite true. If something works better, it replaces what works. Otherwise we would still be driving Model Ts and using enormous black telephones with rotary dials.

Feminism arose as part of a planned social engineering project.

Whoa… this sounds like a conspiracy. Is that what you mean?

 

[dianaballein]

I personally wish this generation embraced men who open doors for us, who pull the chair out and who stand when we get up to leave the room. I am 42 years old and I dream of not working and making a warm and happy home for my family. In all our efforts to be included, some of the best traditions were buried.

 

[Kaninchen]

“dis-invent technology”? Catholics will be encouraged to follow Church teaching as outlined in Humanae Vitae, all other technology will remain. The fog is being lifted on that. There is now, a greater emphasis on sexual morality, which, by the way, stands at the heart of most of the hot button issues of today.

Actually, I was talking about the technology which is the weft and weave of our current stage of capitalist development. The state of any society is tied in with the state of its technological development - the framework of the 50’s no longer exists, the state of the labor and financial markets is entirely different - the 50’s cannot be re-engineered.

By the way, if you really want women back in the home, you could dis-invent washing machines, vacuum cleaners, refrigerators, freezers, microwaves . . . because if you were to look at what first opened up women’s horizons, you’ll find that it was ‘time’.

My father was a World War II vet. It was his generation that had kids in the 1950s. It was his generation that only wanted a place where bullets weren’t flying and bombs weren’t falling on their heads.

So, the vast increase in various consumer goods markets was entirely incidental?

Hardly.

 

[edwest2]

I personally wish this generation embraced men who open doors for us, who pull the chair out and who stand when we get up to leave the room. I am 42 years old and I dream of not working and making a warm and happy home for my family. In all our efforts to be included, some of the best traditions were buried.

You were deceived along with other people. Women were told they are eternal victims. That’s why Women’s Studies courses began appearing in colleges. You were shown how you have been trodden down by men, how women were different, set apart. This was all designed to make you feel alienated from men. These people followed no Christian principles. They were deceptive and only wanted women to feel hostility toward men while, at the same time, claiming to “empower” them. You were lied to by a group of middlemen who placed themselves between you and the God given order of things.

I open doors for women, I pull the chair out and stand up when they get ready to leave the room. But you were taught that you could no longer accept such “condescending” treatment from men. Remember the Helen Reddy song, “I am woman, hear me roar.”? The complementary male-female relationship was turned into a power struggle. Reject this.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Actually, I was talking about the technology which is the weft and weave of our current stage of capitalist development. The state of any society is tied in with the state of its technological development - the framework of the 50’s no longer exists, the state of the labor and financial markets is entirely different - the 50’s cannot be re-engineered.

By the way, if you really want women back in the home, you could dis-invent washing machines, vacuum cleaners, refrigerators, freezers, microwaves . . . because if you were to look at what first opened up women’s horizons, you’ll find that it was ‘time’.

So, the vast increase in various consumer goods markets was entirely incidental?

Hardly.

Time did nothing. Only words and actions based on those words change things. Markets is a meaningless term. Consumer goods are bought in useless quantity.

The key concept that drove the 1950s and early 1960s was contentedness. Sophisticated advertising techniques blurred the distinction between necessities and wants.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

That isn’t quite true. If something works better, it replaces what works. Otherwise we would still be driving Model Ts and using enormous black telephones with rotary dials.

Whoa… this sounds like a conspiracy. Is that what you mean?

Technology is not that important. While working in health care, I noticed a patient who was 100 years old but certainly did not look it. I asked him to compare life today with the way it was when he was in his 20’s. His reply? “Things happen a lot faster but they’re basically the same.”

Look up “social engineering.” It’s done all the time.

God bless,
Ed

 

[wapsi]

wapsi:

edwest2:

Feminism arose as part of a planned social engineering project.

Whoa… this sounds like a conspiracy. Is that what you mean?
Look up “social engineering.” It’s done all the time.

Okay, but who are the people doing the “planned social engineering” that you refer to?

 

[edwest2]

Don’t bother looking up NOW. Personally, I dislike most of what they say. To me feminism or masculinism either one means each of us having the opportunity to actualize our potential given to us by God. This means, no unaccepted role by any individual, which both men and women have been subject to for centuries. For instance many women consider raising a family a career, but when is the first time you have heard a man saying raising a family is a career? I really feel the male half of society has the greater opportunity to develop skills, gifts, perceptions etc. than the female half. Women are in a conundrum. We want to be mothers, wives, companions to our husbands etc., but it is also frustrating to be limited by societal roles if we want to experience other forms of personal growth outside the family circle. Sometimes in having to make a choice, full attention to family, or full attention to career outside the home, we feel pulled apart, dissatisfied in both arenas. To me this is a no win situation. By nature women are meant to be mothers and care givers. This deals with the emotional part of our nature. But then comes another drive, to be more than what nature intends. Since I am not a man, I can’t see that a man has to fight his nature to be successful in business or career. Emotionally, I am not sure where the male species stands. Enlighten me. Thanks.

Unfortunately, so-called modern feminism is selling a product with different names. They want to “empower” you. Well, what does that mean? They want to give you “choices.” Uh, OK.

If you are Catholic, you should study what the Church has to say. There are plenty of online resources. But let’s review:

Here are your choices:

You can stay single and celibate.

Or you can go the heavily promoted single and fornicating, especially with cohabitating.

Or you can get married, and have or not have children.

Then there is single motherhood, the leading cause of poverty for women in the US.

The Church teaches that single men and women should have nonfornicating relationships. Then, if you find someone you like, there should be courtship where the two of you get to know each other. Then, if you really want to explore the possibility of marriage with this person - talk. Talk about your plans, talk about kids, talk about your career ideas and so on. If both of you are agreeable, then you move on to engagement. You meet each other’s parents and siblings. Duing this time, you begin to finalize how the two of you, in partnership, will now conduct your lives. The Church views marriage as a sacred vocation, a sacrament, a gift from God and not to be entered into lightly.

Sadly. Very sadly. The most commonly advertised method for conducting a relationship today is to have sex first and ask questions afterward. It pains me to hear actresses say the following, “It’s just sex.” What? It’s like going to the bathroom? I use you and you use me?

I met a strikingly beautiful young lady recently. She told me she was divorced. I asked how long she had been married. The reply? 9 months. What happened? I asked. “I had to kick my husband out of the house because I found out he was a nut.”

God bless,
Ed

 

[dianaballein]

You were deceived along with other people. Women were told they are eternal victims. That’s why Women’s Studies courses began appearing in colleges. You were shown how you have been trodden down by men, how women were different, set apart. This was all designed to make you feel alienated from men. These people followed no Christian principles. They were deceptive and only wanted women to feel hostility toward men while, at the same time, claiming to “empower” them. You were lied to by a group of middlemen who placed themselves between you and the God given order of things.

I open doors for women, I pull the chair out and stand up when they get ready to leave the room. But you were taught that you could no longer accept such “condescending” treatment from men. Remember the Helen Reddy song, “I am woman, hear me roar.”? The complementary male-female relationship was turned into a power struggle. Reject this.

God bless,
Ed

Dear Ed,

I wasn’t taught this. Did you not read my post? I adore men who do those things. I EMBRACE being a woman and allowing a man to be a gentleman. My parents did not raise me to be a feminist. They encouraged me and of course, told me I could do or be anything, and that is true…but my genuine hearts desire is to be a wife and a Mom moreso than a career person who doesn’t need anyone.

May God bless you too…and you keep doing those wonderful things!!!

 

[elts1956]

There’s an assumption behind all this that the 50’s were a ‘modern’ face of all the past generations - this is more than highly questionable, they were where capitalism was at the time. Neither did the the 60’s just turn up as some kind of deus ex machina to spoil it all. The history, even more distant history, of it all is more complex than that.

I expect that you do.

Don’t you think these capitalistic 50s were a result of the “winning” of World War II. So many men came back to what they believed were unending opportunities for wealth, comfort and stability. After the depression this must have seemed to be a paradise.

And I agree, what comes before lays the groundwork for what comes next.

 

[elts1956]

There’s an assumption behind all this that the 50’s were a ‘modern’ face of all the past generations - this is more than highly questionable, they were where capitalism was at the time. Neither did the the 60’s just turn up as some kind of deus ex machina to spoil it all. The history, even more distant history, of it all is more complex than that.

I expect that you do.

Unfortunately, so-called modern feminism is selling a product with different names. They want to “empower” you. Well, what does that mean? They want to give you “choices.” Uh, OK.

If you are Catholic, you should study what the Church has to say. There are plenty of online resources. But let’s review:

Here are your choices:

You can stay single and celibate.

Or you can go the heavily promoted single and fornicating, especially with cohabitating.

Or you can get married, and have or not have children.

Then there is single motherhood, the leading cause of poverty for women in the US.

The Church teaches that single men and women should have nonfornicating relationships. Then, if you find someone you like, there should be courtship where the two of you get to know each other. Then, if you really want to explore the possibility of marriage with this person - talk. Talk about your plans, talk about kids, talk about your career ideas and so on. If both of you are agreeable, then you move on to engagement. You meet each other’s parents and siblings. Duing this time, you begin to finalize how the two of you, in partnership, will now conduct your lives. The Church views marriage as a sacred vocation, a sacrament, a gift from God and not to be entered into lightly.

Sadly. Very sadly. The most commonly advertised method for conducting a relationship today is to have sex first and ask questions afterward. It pains me to hear actresses say the following, “It’s just sex.” What? It’s like going to the bathroom? I use you and you use me?

I met a strikingly beautiful young lady recently. She told me she was divorced. I asked how long she had been married. The reply? 9 months. What happened? I asked. “I had to kick my husband out of the house because I found out he was a nut.”

God bless,
Ed

I think so much of what we are dealing with in our youth today is a result of the confusion of women in the 60s and 70s when the big Feminist push appeared. As a result many of our young people are raised without values, priorities and morals. Many are basically good, but very, very confused and living in an unstable society.

 

[Kaninchen]

Time did nothing. Only words and actions based on those words change things. Markets is a meaningless term. Consumer goods are bought in useless quantity.

The key concept that drove the 1950s and early 1960s was contentedness. Sophisticated advertising techniques blurred the distinction between necessities and wants.

Well, we’ve reached a point where conversation is completely pointless.