"What does islam and catholicism have in common?"

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Ok if anyone has been following my last thread “Need your help” you know what I am dealing with. He has now moved on to a different subject and this is all he said:

What does Islam and Catholicism have in common?

Anyone have any idea where he is going with this?

Mods I am sorry if you think I should have posted this in the other folder but I thought it was a different argument and needed a new thread. If I am wrong I apologize.

 

[SemperJase]

Anyone have any idea where he is going with this?

I’d guess that he would say the both historically have spread their faiths through war.

If you choose to respond to him, I suggest something along the lines of:

"I understand you do not like the catholic church. I assure you I love Christ and my faith centers on him. Whatever you think the catholic church has in common with Islam does not change the fact that this is what the catholic church believes and teaches the faithful:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I type in the question into yahoo to see where he is getting his arguments… I found a site by Mike Gendron (which is funny because he is someone that he originally told us to check out) I dont know if this is what he is going off of but he has used Gendron’s arguments in the past. anyways here is the article.

reachingcatholics.org/islam_rome.html

What is funny is that I am relatively new to catholicism (last Easter) and I saw this guys lies a mile away. The funniest thing about the article is his references, he posts a whopping 2 references and one of them just so happens to be:

Dave Hunt, A Woman Rides the Beast (Harvest House Publishers, 1994), p. 458.

Hahahaha LOL

 

[sara888]

**They have nothing in common.!

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

Jan**

 

[Genesis315]

Actually, given the origins of Islam, they are similar. It is considered by many a Catholic heresy. Muhammed took Catholicsm, and got rid of the things he couldn’t understand: the Incarnation (and thereby the Trinity,death, and Resurrection) and the Sacraments. They still believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, one God who is the creator of all and all virtuous, and they retained a similar moral code.

A good read on this subject is Hillaire Belloc’s “Great Heresies.” Here is the chapter on Islam:

ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY4.TXT

One of the greatest popes of all time, St. Greogry VII in 1076 wrote to Al-Nasir, the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya, present day Algeria: ‘Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. You and we owe this charity to ourselves especially because **we believe in and confess one God, admittedly, in a different way, and daily praise and venerate him, the creator of the world and ruler of this world.’
**

 

[Church_Militant]

No point in pursuing SS with him, and there is no correlation between Islam and us, though he may attempt to assert that there is, make him do that work, since it’s his allegation. remember, in dabate…the one making the aassertion bears the burden of proof. What is unproven or unprovable is an empty argument.

This is a fairly common tactic used by many a-Cs to shift gears when they have been refuted. Let it go and I would just fail to respond to this latest and maybe he’ll go away and bother someone else.
Pax tecum,

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Thanks again Church, I appreciate everything. I have no illusions that this will be the last we hear from him on the matter. I know where he is going with this whole Islam thing now. I have read Mike Gendron’s article about the connections between Islam and the RCC. reachingcatholics.org/islam_rome.html

I have to say I wasnt impressed. Mostly intellectual dishonesty and his bias towards the Catholic church severly compramises his objectivity. Of course this is just my opinion, until I looked at the CCC references he used and actually looked at where he got them from and noticed he butchered their context completely and used them to fit his argument. Both Gendron and Hunt come off as self proclaimed historians but they are poor ones at that. I especially loved this:

Nearly 50 years ago, Roman Catholic Bishop Fulton Sheen predicted that Islam would be converted to Catholicism “through a summoning of the Moslems to a veneration of the Mother of God.” He reasoned, “The Koran…has many passages concerning the Blessed Virgin. First of all, the Koran believes in her Immaculate Conception and also in her Virgin Birth. Mary, then, is for the Moslems the true Sayyida, or Lady.” 1

Good I noticed that he cited where he got this quote so I could check his reference to make sure that he got the quote in its proper context. Well lets see where he got this quote from:

1 Dave Hunt, A Woman Rides the Beast (Harvest House Publishers, 1994), p. 458.

I was expecting to find a primary source for this quote, a link to a speech, or perhaps something written by the Sheen himself. instead I find this? All Gendron offers is someone else’s interpretation of Sheen’s quote. Surely it wouldnt have been hard to shift through Hunt’s book to find a proper citation of this quote so someone could find the quote themselves right? So then why leave it out? What is both Hunt and Gendron hiding? So this sparked my interest and I found the primary source of this quote here: catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0182.html

So what does Sheen have to say for himself?

Mary is the advent of Christ, bringing Christ to the people before Christ Himself is born. In any apologetic endeavor, it is always best to start with that which people already accept. Because the Moslems have a devotion to Mary, our missionaries should be satisfied merely to expand and to develop that devotion, with the full realization that Our Blessed Lady will carry the Moslems the rest of the way to her Divine Son.

Sheen is discussing how Catholic missionaries could better reach Muslims for Christ, and a genious way at that. Shame on you Fulton Sheen for trying to find a way to reach Muslims for Christ…

 

[Church_Militant]

WOOT! R_C, I am WAAAAY impressed! You beat the dude at his own game and by being smart enough to go behind him and check his sources.

I don’t think Gendron would know a fact if it barked in his face, and I find a great many other n-C/a-C guys whose “scholarship” is poor (to be charitable about it) and it drives me nuts, but the great part is that just like you did just then, you can make a very reasonable effort and be rewarded with excellent information to refute their propaganda. If I had a nickel for every time that has paid off (in every case without fail, I might add) I’d be retired in the islands, sittin’ on the beach with a rum drink (complete with little umbrella in it) melting in my hand as I watch the tide roll in.
Pax tecum,

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Well it did not take long for another reply, He did not persue the islam thing, maybe because I told him I had already read mike Gendron’s article, maybe not, either way he has moved on again. We have gone in the course of 2 days from sloa scriptura to Islam and not to this. This is what he wrote:

Therefore,since we have been FREELY justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. Rom.5:1-2
A church has nothing to do with it…and does not have authority over scripture, Gods breathed instruction…

And then he sent something that was created by a web-site for mass production which stated:

While most of the information about Jesus’ crucifixion is contained in the Gospels, many people are surprised to learn that a great number of details regarding it are found in prophecies in the Old Testament.

It is in Isaiah 50:6 that we find that the Lord wore a beard - and that His enemies would pull it out.
In Isaiah 52:14 , we read that He would be beaten so unmercifully that He would be unrecognizable.
Psalm 22 describes in graphic detail the pain and suffering Christ would experience, both physically and emotionally, as He became the sin-bearer for all of mankind.

Isaiah 53:3-12 tells what His agony would accomplish… the redemption of multitudes from eternal destruction to life and joy and peace everlasting.

“As many were astonied at thee; His visage was so marred , more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men: So shall He sprinkle (cleanse) many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at Him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider” Isaiah 52:14,15.

The term “astonied” (Hebrew Shamem) means literally “like a stone”, or “petrified.” Isaiah paints a tremendously horrific word picture. The person is described as so disfigured that those who see Him are petrified. What they are hearing and seeing is indescribably graphic, and never before seen in all history.

The Hebrew word translated “visage” (mar’eh) is ordinarily used to describe a beautiful face, but now that face had been “marred” (literally “corrupted”) more than any other had ever experienced. His face and body had been so cruelly tortured that He no longer even looked human. But who has been treated like this ?

“…My Servant”(Isaiah 52:13). The Holy Son of Man has been so beaten and tortured that He was no longer recognizable. He was not only suffering for human sin, He became sin personified “For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.” (2 Cor 5:21). Why? It is because “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all” (Isaiah 53:6).

The verb “laid on” indicates a crushing, shattering pummeling. We see, however, its triumphant outcome: “He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied: by His knowledge shall My Righteous Servant justify many; for He shall bear their iniquities.”

(Isaiah 53:11). After sheddi ng His blood as an offering for sin, He was lifted up to heaven, and seated at the right hand of God. All who believe and receive Him as Lord and Savior will join Him for all eternity! (John1:12). (Henry M. Morris)

I have not had time to look at it completely, I am off to class right now, I will look at it when I get back. I figured I would give everyone a head start for me

 

[Church_Militant]

This one’s a and I wouldn’t even acknowledge receiving it. What it really is another effort to push SS, though his first shot is more an attack on the authority of the church.

He’s wrong on both counts, and SS we have already dealt with, so just blow that long one off.

Therefore,since we have been FREELY justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. Rom.5:1-2
A church has nothing to do with it…and does not have authority over scripture, Gods breathed instruction

…In fact, this is also sort of SS related as well.

The really sad part is that his preaching is so disjointed and contextually messed up that I really pity anyone in his congregation.

He’s totally fouled up on the bolded part.

1. The church clearly has the defacto authority over the scriptures, since it has already excercised it in order to discern which writings are inspired and therefore canonical.
2. The Bible itself nowhere claims the authority to deal with it’s own inspired list, so therefore Christ must have intended it to work the way it did.
3. 1st Timothy 3:15

BTW, I don’t know what whacked out translation of the Word of God he’s using, but I would so drop that one off the nearest bridge. Look at what Romans 5:1-2 actually says.
1: Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2: Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. (RSV-CE 2nd Edition)

1 Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access through faith into this grace, wherein we stand, and glory in the hope of the glory of the sons of God.
(Douay-Rheims Bible)
Dude sure is a mess…
Pax tecum,

 

[Dancelittleewok]

He said the church has nothing to do with it, then I would ask why does he go to church every sunday to hear his pastor expound on the Word? Aren’t he and his pastor interpreting scripture? If God’s instruction were self-evident through the Word would be no different scriptural interpretions, which is not the case.

As for faith, I’d ask him what he thinks about James 2:24.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

He said the church has nothing to do with it, then I would ask why does he go to church every sunday to hear his pastor expound on the Word? Aren’t he and his pastor interpreting scripture? If God’s instruction were self-evident through the Word would be no different scriptural interpretions, which is not the case.

As for faith, I’d ask him what he thinks about James 2:24.

Great question and this is something that last year I had asked him… His answer is he doesnt have to go to Church because his church is out of his home… He attended an Assembly of God church (and as far as I am aware still considers himself AoG) but after he ran into disagreement with two of the local AoG churches (because they didnt preach about repentance enough he said) he decided to start his own church out of his home. Now this was last year and whether or not he still does this I don’t know but this was the answer I got.

I also asked him if all we needed was a Bible than why send people to preach? Why not just leave a pile of Bibles on a street corner and leave it at that since the Bible is up to everyone’s private interpretation? He has never replied back with his reasoning.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Another reply this one leaves me out of it and is directed completely towards my fiance here it is:

You have become so wise and all knowing of theology I scarcely can find words that would be relevant. If you can think of some for me please let me know. What were the four laws used to canonize the scriptures into the bible and why were others rejected by the theological scholars that did the work of God? What is the Church, it’s definition? What is the biblical definition of a saint?
P.S. what did you think of the passion of the cross? Do you think God is angry at the wicked everyday? Do you realize that you did that to him? He said it is FINISHED nothing need be added. How could anyone add to the work of the cross when God Himself said it is FINISHED? And if you could be good enough how do you make up for sins of the past? Don’t you guys try to do that through penance,indulgances and don’t forget the SACRED EUCHARIST WAFFER which the FATHER has the POWER to call down Christ and SACRIFICE Him over and over and over and over and over again. Go figure this does not make much sense but hay it doesn’t have to I’m just going to believe it because they tell me too.Work work work and more work. Oh and the don’t forget to pray the rosery bless HER SACRED HEART.Again the roman catholic church is not the New Testoment church of the bible I don’t care what they tell you. What ever,you need to wake up. Hope I didn’t make you too mad…Happy birthday! Don’t blow me up too bad O.K…think think think.

Its almost funny. I can tell he is frustrated that he made no ground with sola scriptura so now we get the, Eucharist, Rosary, Saints, Sacrafice of Mass and of course the roles priest play in the RCC. So I guess his tactic is if he cant get it with one point at a time he will throw many at the wall and hope one sticks…

Hey Church what do you think of this one?

 

[djrakowski]

What ever,you need to wake up. Hope I didn’t make you too mad…Happy birthday! Don’t blow me up too bad O.K…think think think.

Wow… that a man would say such nasty things to his own flesh and blood for the simple act of believing in a different religious tradition is astonishing. I will be praying for all of you.

Dan

 

[SemperJase]

Hey Church what do you think of this one?

I think he is escalating his rhetoric and becoming intentionally offensive in how he refers to the Eucharist and Mary. I notice he continues to misrepresent church teaching.

I strongly urge your fiance to set some boundaries with him. Insulting her and her faith is not the way to form a relationship with her.

My suggestion for her woud be to respond in this manner:

In that past I have attempted to explain to you my beliefs and what the Catholic Church teaches. In your last email you claimed that Catholics sacrifice Christ repeatedly. This is not correct. It IS finished which is why the church teaches that the sacrifice of the Mass is the same sacrifice re-presented. In addition, the church does teach that salvation is through Christ alone.

  You also claim that I only believe in the church because they tell me to. Yet you want me to believe what you teach because that is what you tell me. You have said you left your old church because they didn’t teach what you thought they should. Where is the authority? Your old church also claims to be led by the Holy Spirit. When everyone claims their own individual authority from God, then there is no authority at all.

(This is where she needs to set boundaries).

You keep telling me to think. I do think. I do not take anyone’s word alone as proof. I have studied the claims of the church and believe their is biblical and historical proof for those claims. That is the conclusion I have made. When you say otherwise, you are insulting my integrity. From this point, I am asking you not to mock my faith or claim that I am not thinking for myself.

 

[homewardbound]

Not sure if this has been said already but the only thing I know they have in common is that they share the same first four books of the Bible.

I believe we all worship the same God. I hope someday the spiteful remarks on both sides will cease and we can learn to either tolerate eachother(or convert them all)

Yes, I know thats a very idealistic way of thinking. But it is a nice thought.

 

[Church_Militant]

You have become so wise and all knowing of theology I scarcely can find words that would be relevant.If you can think of some for me please let me know

This is nothing but a left handed compliment and actually a slight. He’s implying that you are so into “theology” (as if that is a bad thing…it’s not, it is part of what helps insure sound doctrine.) Very often I have heard it alleged that we Catholics just blindly follow the Pope, which is (IMO) a screamin’ bad joke since the truth is that most Catholics bring their God-given brain to their faith and generally like to know just why we believe the things that we do. Otherwise, what’s the point of the CCC and then new Compendium and all the encyclicals and other teaching documents. It’s a ludicrous allegation. Notice that he totally ignores that you have refuted his attacks with the Word of God. Everyone knows that Catholics don’t read the Bible, and aren’t encouraged to, and don’t know the Bible, right?

What were the four laws used to canonize the scriptures into the bible and why were others rejected by the theological scholars that did the work of God?

Here he’s trying to draw you into the “reasons” that Protestants reject the DCs and such. It’s a bad place for him try to go because most all of it comes down to Martin Luther, and he was way wrong in his attitude toward the canon of scripture. Yes he dumped the DCs, but he also wanted to toss out Esther and worse still to eliminate from the NT the books of Hebrews, James, Revelation, and one of Peter’s epistles, none of which had been challenged since the canon was set. The fact is that he had to dump the books of Maccabees and James because they didn’t support his new pet doctrine of Sola Fide and Maccabees plainly supports Purgatory, which he had a rather large pet peeve with as most of the planet is aware.

What is the Church, it’s definition? What is the biblical definition of a saint?

I can go into a big thing here because he hasn’t got a correct doctrine of the church. (See CA’s online library for great stuff on that, but also I suggest you get into The Communion of Saints and One Church (Notes here) by John Martignoni. Good sources all.

P.S. what did you think of the passion of the cross?

It’s “The Passion of the Christ”…and tell him you loved it.

Do you think God is angry at the wicked everyday?

OT verse that says this is much used by fire & brimstone types. Irrelevent to this discusssion…

Do you realize that you did that to him?

Nah, Ya think? Needs no answer…just rhetoric.

He said it is FINISHED nothing need be added. How could anyone add to the work of the cross when God Himself said it is FINISHED?

The Catholic Church certainly doesn’t…though he will attempt to allege that we do. CA Library on Merit as well as purgatory. He’s toast on Purgatory, even the Jews still believe in something very like it to this day. My Post on it.
(Cont’d)

 

[Montie_Claunch]

You have become so wise and all knowing of theology I scarcely can find words that would be relevant. If you can think of some for me please let me know. What were the four laws used to canonize the scriptures into the bible and why were others rejected by the theological scholars that did the work of God? What is the Church, it’s definition? What is the biblical definition of a saint?
P.S. what did you think of the passion of the cross? Do you think God is angry at the wicked everyday? Do you realize that you did that to him? He said it is FINISHED nothing need be added. How could anyone add to the work of the cross when God Himself said it is FINISHED? And if you could be good enough how do you make up for sins of the past? Don’t you guys try to do that through penance,indulgances and don’t forget the SACRED EUCHARIST WAFFER which the FATHER has the POWER to call down Christ and SACRIFICE Him over and over and over and over and over again. Go figure this does not make much sense but hay it doesn’t have to I’m just going to believe it because they tell me too.Work work work and more work. Oh and the don’t forget to pray the rosery bless HER SACRED HEART.Again the roman catholic church is not the New Testoment church of the bible I don’t care what they tell you. What ever,you need to wake up. Hope I didn’t make you too mad…Happy birthday! Don’t blow me up too bad O.K…think think think.

To be honest I find his sacrasm offensive.

I would like to suggest to you something that I did when I came up against something like this.
“Oh silly. You know that we really don’t beleive that (that Jesus is sacrificed over and over agian). What is really the matter?” Say something like that in the sweetest way.

I did that to this one gentleman who was just ranting that we almost worship the Church and not God (that we bleive that God is asleep or something). Just turning it around to wear there is something wrong with him and we are here to help him. I did that and the guy I was talking to really lost all of his fire poper. I almost got him to start opening up to me till the talks were discontinued.

 

[Church_Militant]

And if you could be good enough how do you make up for sins of the past? Don’t you guys try to do that through penance

Gee…what is “fruit worthy of repentance”? Ever read the Old Testament? Notice what every single repentant person, town, and even whole country did when they repented? Have look at the book of Jonah near the end and see what all of of them did after Jonah preached to them.

indulgances

Too bad he seems to have missed John 20 21-23 which plainly says, “21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained” and Matthew 18:17-18 which says, “17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.” Indulgences are part of that very binding and loosing power that belongs to Christ’s church.

, and don’t forget the SACRED EUCHARIST WAFFER which the FATHER has the POWER to call down Christ and SACRIFICE Him over and over and over and over and over again.

Lousy rhetoric here and goes after the Eucharist and wants you to believe that the NT teaches it’s just a symbol. It does not.

The “Father” bit is well refuted in Call No Man Father in the online CA Library.

The re-sacrifice bit is bunkum. The Catholic Church teaches that the once for all sacrifice is miraculously made present for us in the liturgy of the Eucharist. This is scriptural all day long as my linked posts above already show.

Go figure this does not make much sense but hay it doesn’t have to I’m just going to believe it because they tell me too.

This is rude and insulting and totally ignores that you have refuted his jive with the Word of God to date and will continue to do so, knowing from research that the ECF and historic Christianity all wrote that they believed the very same things.

Work work work and more work.

…So is street preaching and hassling others about their faith when they testify in your face that they are already believing Christians.

Obviously he is after the merit of works. No biggie. There’s a metric TON of passages that make this pretty plain. My personal favorites are Matthew 25:31-46 and all these passages as well.

Oh and the don’t forget to pray the rosery bless HER SACRED HEART

A slap at the Blessed Virgin and the Rosary. Ignore it for now. Mainly because he’s doing nothing here but making a long list of incoherent anti-Catholic rantings. When he can phrase it all in whole and rational sentences, then we’ll make an answer. (And he’ll get mad because he’ll be refuted again. )

Again the roman catholic church is not the New Testoment church of the bible I don’t care what they tell you.

All because he says so. He can’t prove this, but invite him to anyway. Tell him that you can show him the name Catholic Church in the original Greek of the NT (Acts 9:31) as well as one of the earliest writings of the ECF.

What ever,you need to wake up.

My response to such as this is generally “Physician, heal thyself.”

Hope I didn’t make you too mad…Happy birthday! Don’t blow me up too bad O.K…think think think.

God, but I hope this isn’t his idea of a birthday wish! I find it hard to get too mad at a man who is sincere…even if he is sincerely dead wrong. You won’t have to blow him up…as one of my sons once told me after seeing me add salt to a Godfather’s pizza, “One day you’re gonna get mad and your head is gonna explode.”

The bad news, (for him) is that being able to think for one’s self and read the Word of God as well as reason out rational presentations of Christian teaching is precisely why many of us are Catholic.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Great thanks again guys. I wanted to say that in the middle of my fiance and I typing up a response, he sent another email apologizing for this last email that was so nasty. He said he did not want to talk like this anymore, (even though my fiance and I have been nothing but charitable with him). However we still sent him a response about that last email, but hopefully now he is starting to understand and not that he agrees with the Church but maybe he can respect her decision to become Catholic, which is all she really wants anyways.

Thanks again I will let you know what he response with, if he responds.