What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[SHW]

Hi Howie,

I am sorry that my posts are above your level of understanding. I did not know this fact. However, I do not write for just your benefit alone and hopefully others have profited from my posts.

Since this is a Sacred Scripture forum, how is it that you expect teaching which is not also backed up by Scripture? Perhaps you should join a forum for persons who only want to spout their own “opinions” with no Scriptural proofs.

If you continue with this forum, then from now on, I will only give you a few Scriptures at a time so that you will be able to comprehend them.

1 Corinthians 10:10-13 “Neither should ye murmur, as some of them also murmured – and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now all these things happened unto them by way of example, and are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12Therefore let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall. 13There hath no temptation taken hold of you but such as is common to man. But God is faithful; He will not suffer you to be tempted beyond that which ye are able to bear, but with the temptation will also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

1 Timothy 3:6-7 “He must not be a novice in the faith,** lest being lifted up with pride, he fall into the condemnation of the devil**. 7 Moreover he must have a good reputation with those who are outsiders, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.”

2 Peter 3:17 “Ye therefore, beloved, seeing that ye know these things beforehand, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.”

Hebrews 4:11 “Let us labor (work) therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall according to the same example of unbelief.”

Conclusions:

1. Pride comes before a fall.
2. If you fall, you are no longer saved.
3. We must labor (work) in order to be able to enter into our rest.

Pax,
SHW

One more conclusion:

1. If I fail to work in order to enter my rest, then I am but another “example” of “unbelief;” I am just the same as those who do not believe because I will receive the same punishment as these unbelievers.

What is the punishment for “not believing” in the gospel or for “failing to obey” the gospel of Jesus?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

The punishment is “everlasting destruction in flaming fire” or in another word: hell.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Howie01]

ryanoneil:

I don’t disagree. God is powerful enough to will someone to infallibly accept his grace without taking away his freewill.

Efficacious grace.

ryanoneil:

We are freed from sin and reborn as sons and daughters of God. We become members of Christ and are incorporated into his Church and mission.

What do you mean by that?

ryanoneil:

God gives all men sufficient grace to be saved. This is true because God antecedently wills all to be saved, meaning that all have the possibility of salvation.

How do you square that statement with this question by Paul:**Romans 9:21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

And this statement by Peter:

1 Peter 2:8

and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this they were also appointed.**

ryanoneil:

When you start talking about terms like efficacious, operating, and cooperating grace there is no equality.

**Deuteronomy 7:1-2, 6When the Lord your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you, and when the Lord your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them…For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.**Explain God’s equality of grace in His election of Israel, over all the other nations of the earth, to whom, through Israel, God shows no favor?

And this:**1 Corinthians 1:30Out of Him now you are in Christ Jesus….**How then does belief come to one group, and how does belief not come to another group, if not by a more efficacious grace given by God to the former group (knowing that all begin with equal standing before God, remember, all come from “the same lump” [Rom 9:21] )?

ryanoneil:

Jesus says plenty about security.

**You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. (Mt 10:22)

But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. (Mt 24:13)**

But, you, yourself, believe that one can choose not to persevere? How then is it you see Jesus speaking of “security” in those verses?

ryanoneil:

Salvation happens at baptism or through faith…

That’s ambiguous. Which is it for you, baptism, or through faith?

…but salvation is a process also. Remain in Christ and your salvation is assured. Fall away and your salvation is not assured.

Sanctification is a process; justification is not.

ryanoneil:

Those who don’t believe someone can lose their salvation.

C’mon. Belief in eternal security does not exclude human reponse. One must believe to be saved; isn’t believing a response?

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

One more conclusion:

**If I fail to work in order to enter my rest…I am just the same as those who do not believe because I will receive the same punishment as these unbelievers.**You’ve taken the verse out of context; the passage is a call to the Gospel of those uncommitted Jews who were “hardening their hearts” because of persecution, and who were considering a return to Judaism because that persecution was becoming too much for them. Read the entire chapter, and an historical background to the epistle; those to whom this passage is addressed had not converted.

Therefore, if you fail to enter God’s rest in the manner cited above, you are not the same as an unbeliever, you are an unbeliever.

Eternal rest is given by grace, it’s not entered by work; otherwise, grace is no longer grace (Rom 11:6).

SHW:

What is the punishment for “not believing” in the gospel or for “failing to obey” the gospel of Jesus?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

The punishment is “everlasting destruction in flaming fire” or in another word: hell.

Unbelievers will go to hell; thank you for that information, I guess.

 

[ncgolf]

I understand the significance of sacraments to you, and that you cannot deny them and remain Catholic.

Nevertheless, they are to me, an addition to the completed and perfect work of Christ.

Understood … based on your theology your supposition is one you must maintain … though I find it unbiblical for sacraments are conduits of grace available to all.

My point in saying what I did is, even good works are not a guarantee that one is in the faith, nor are they a guarantee of salvation.

Neither is faith alone … that is the whole point … but when lives a live in faith supported by works, love … one can be confident in the promises of Christ … one should not be afraid.

That’s tolerant of you.

Why tolerant … it is just a fact.

Wait a minute! The guarantee of which I speak is not “man-made.” It’s made by God:Ephesians 1:13-14

Yes … for those that endure.

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Sounds like Baptism.

Ephesians 4:30

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Sin does not grieve the HS?

I don’t hear Paul saying “reasonably assured,” but “confidently assured.”

Ok … confident but I do not ever infer the words absolute assurance from Paul’s writings.

But the difficulty in that is, you combine sanctification with justification. To you, they are the same.

There is no santification without justification or am I missing something.

Therefore, I don’t see how can have any assurance, but only a “hope so “ hope.

You must think we think God won’t keep his promises.

I know my sanctification can falter, but my justification is sure.

One is justified by faith … yes … but that is sustained by grace … and in our Tradition that grace may be refused … we are a stupid, stubborn people sometimes.

We are sanctified by the acts of mercy and charity which justification has opened us up to.

Here’s the part of the catechism I had in mind:

CCC, under the heading Grace and Justification, para 1989:

”Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.
​

I agree with this … when one is justified and cooperates with sanctifying grace one is renewed and becomes more Christ-like … isn’t this the whole point of Christianitiy?

I have faith only in Christ.

How does that explain the difference between me and you?

Because the Church is Christ … the mystical body we are enjoined at Baptism. We see no difference between Christ and His Church.​

 

[moondweller]

God promised to save everyone who looked to the bronze serpent in search of his mercy. Jesus sees this as an image of his own Crucifixion and the healing it will bring.

Healing? Eternal life is more than just a “healing,” it’s a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17).

Yes, the other key word is first. Belief comes first and it is a gift from God. But it isn’t a one shot deal though, and it cannot remain isolated.

It is a “one shot deal” when it’s based on one historical event: “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” - the cross.Rom 3:22-24 “…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace (How? On what basis?) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

Justification is not imputed. God infuses His grace into souls and changes the inner person.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land. Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me. (Mat 5:3-11)

I see nothing in this passage about “infused grace” into a soul. You’re applying your doctrine to the passage. According to Divine revelation what changes the justified believer is spiritual regeneration. Having been once dead (spiritually) in trespasses and sins, the justified believer is made alive with Christ in the Spirit:Eph 2:5 "…even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Col 2:13 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,"This isn’t “infusion” but “regeneration.”

Here are examples of “doing” righteousness, not just being “imputed” external righteousness.

“External righteousness?” The righteousness that is credited to the believer is indeed a “foreign” righteousness; to be exact, the “righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil. 3:9). But it’s not “external.” It thoroughly belongs, giftwise, to the justified believer. This is what what justification means.

We are not just defendants in a courtroom who have been exonerated. We are children of God endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit by whose grace we can become righteous. And there are tons of examples in the OT.

Examples in the O.T.? You need to get up to speed, my friend. Didn’t you know, Someone greater than Moses has come, and through Him a better covenant based on better promises? Read the Book of Hebrews. The Holy Spirit endows no one with the “grace” to “become” righteous. God reckons men righteousness through faith; it’s gifted by God:Rom 3:23-24 “…for all sinned and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

2 Cor 5:21 “He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

Righteousness is a New Covenant gift from Christ.

To be accurate, righteousness (justification) is gift of God to the believer and is based on the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. Read Rom. 3:24 above.

It is first given in Baptism and is received by faith.

To be Biblically accurate God Himself justifies both the Jew and Gentile by/through faith in Christ alone (read Romans. chpts. 3-4). But nowhere is it stated that one must “receive” it by faith. It’s gifted upon faith in Christ alone.

It denotes our restored relationship with God as an adopted son or daughter.

And according to Catholicism, how many times can an adopted son or daughter be kicked out of God’s household? According to Catholicism God runs an awfully dysfunctional household; yet much more is expected from an elder/overseer in the church (1 Tim. 3:4-5).

This gift of righteousness can then increase through love and obedience to God’s covenant.

But Scripture calls it “the righteousness of God” (Rom. 3:22) You’re telling me “the righteousness of God” isn’t perfect? Man has to complete it? Since when does man perfect an attribute of God? Is man greater than God? Is God subject to man?

 

[SHW]

I don’t read posts that consist of pages and pages of scripture used to mask the call to works-righteousness, and works salvation.

Original post by SHW: I am sorry that my posts are above your level of understanding. I did not know this fact. However, I do not write for just your benefit alone and hopefully others have profited from my posts.

Since this is a Catholic Sacred Scripture forum, how is it that you expect teaching which is not also backed up by Scripture? Perhaps you should join a forum for persons who only want to spout their own “opinions” with no Scriptural proofs.

If you continue with this forum, then from now on, I will only give you a few Scriptures at a time so that you will be able to comprehend them.

Original Post by Howie01

"How presumptuous of you.

Just know that’s as far as I read.

I have a bible of my own.

So, I am supposed to believe that instead of a lack of comprehension on your part, that you are actually just being “rude” and that is why you refuse to read the Scriptures that I have quoted and my accompanying comments and conclusions? Your choice. Pick one or the other.

You are either refusing to read what I write due to your inability to use reason and logic in order to comprehend the conclusions that I make or else you are too rude to bother to try because you believe that you cannot possibly be wrong because you are your own “pope.” You believe that your own interpretation is infallible and that our interpretations cannot be, simply because ours do not agree with yours.

For your information: This is a Catholic Sacred Scripture forum. We Catholics are here to discuss the interpretation of Scripture passages/verses. We do not just quote Scripture. We apply logic and reasoning to our discussions in order to reach a conclusion as to what they actually mean so that we can further understand the richness of Truth which is the Catholic faith (the gospel of Jesus).

Since you already have a Bible and you are also refusing to actually read and study what we are saying about these Scripture verses in order to comprehend our beliefs, why are you here?

Ponder on this Scripture passage in your own Bible:

Acts 10:34-36 “Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—”

Conclusion: If you do not fear God and also work righteousness, then you will not be accepted by Him. In other words, you will not be saved and you will not inherit eternal life unless you fear (obey) Him and work righteousness (do good works) as proof of your genuine faith.

SHW

 

[moondweller]

If being thrown into a fire after being separated from the vine isn’t damnation, I don’t know what is. The meaning is quite clear. And your error comment just earned you a trip to the moderators.

The meaning is based on the context. The context is fruit bearing, not salvation/damnation. What comment did I make in error?

And it’s possible to falsely proclaim a faith, never do any works, and never enter salvation upon death.

I agree. But I disagree that it’s upon death that men enter salvation.

 

[SHW]

You’ve taken the verse out of context; the passage is a call to the Gospel of those uncommitted Jews who were “hardening their hearts” because of persecution, and who were considering a return to Judaism because that persecution was becoming too much for them. Read the entire chapter, and an historical background to the epistle; those to whom this passage is addressed had not converted.

Therefore, if you fail to enter God’s rest in the manner cited above, you are not the same as an unbeliever, you are an unbeliever.

Eternal rest is given by grace, it’s not entered by work; otherwise, grace is no longer grace (Rom 11:6).

One last time for Howie01:

Romans 11:6 is about our initial redemption and justification through Baptism. This gives us “hope” of eternal life, not guarantee of eternal life. We must continue in this justification by obeying God’s commandments and producing good fruits or else we will lose our inheritance to eternal life.

Jesus did not come to earth to die for us so that we can then disobey His commandments without consequences.

James 2:17 “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.”

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”

Conclusions:

1. Dead faith does not save us. Dead faith condemns us.
2. We must continue to be justified by both faith and works after our initial justification by grace, or else our faith will not be found genuine at our deaths.
3. If you do not do good works, (if you disobey God’s commandments and/or fail to produce food fruits) then you deny Him by your works and you are abominable to God. Abominable persons do not inherit the kingdom of God.

SHW

 

[SHW]

Unbelievers will go to hell; thank you for that information, I guess.

So will those “Christians” who do not obey the gospel of Christ. They also go to hell.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

SHW

 

[jean8]

Healing? Eternal life is more than just a “healing,” it’s a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17).It is a “one shot deal” when it’s based on one historical event: “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” - the cross.Rom 3:22-24 "…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace (How? On what basis?) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"I see nothing in this passage about “infused grace” into a soul. You’re applying your doctrine to the passage. According to Divine revelation what changes the justified believer is spiritual regeneration. Having been once dead (spiritually) in trespasses and sins, the justified believer is made alive with Christ in the Spirit:Eph 2:5 "…even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Col 2:13 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,"This isn’t “infusion” but “regeneration.”“External righteousness?” The righteousness that is credited to the believer is indeed a “foreign” righteousness; to be exact, the “righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil. 3:9). But it’s not “external.” It thoroughly belongs, giftwise, to the justified believer. This is what what justification means.Examples in the O.T.? You need to get up to speed, my friend. Didn’t you know, Someone greater than Moses has come, and through Him a better covenant based on better promises? Read the Book of Hebrews. The Holy Spirit endows no one with the “grace” to “become” righteous. God reckons men righteousness through faith; it’s gifted by God:Rom 3:23-24 “…for all sinned and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

2 Cor 5:21 "He made Him who knew no sin {to be} sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."To be accurate, righteousness (justification) is gift of God to the believer and is based on the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. Read Rom. 3:24 above.To be Biblically accurate God Himself justifies both the Jew and Gentile by/through faith in Christ alone (read Romans. chpts. 3-4). But nowhere is it stated that one must “receive” it by faith. It’s gifted upon faith in Christ alone.And according to Catholicism, how many times can an adopted son or daughter be kicked out of God’s household? According to Catholicism God runs an awfully dysfunctional household; yet much more is expected from an elder/overseer in the church (1 Tim. 3:4-5).But Scripture calls it “the righteousness of God” (Rom. 3:22) You’re telling me “the righteousness of God” isn’t perfect? Man has to complete it? Since when does man perfect an attribute of God? Is man greater than God? Is God subject to man?

Hi moon,
The original question has really taken on a lot of different ideas.
To abide is to 'remain, stay.
I found the following passages in my KJV which uses this word when it’s appropiate to what is being said.

Lu.19:5 “and Jesus came to the place, he looked up and saw him, Zaccheus, make haste, and come down, for today I miust abide at your house.” (stay)

Jn.12: 46 " I am come light into the world, that whoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. (remain)

God bless,
jean8

See also Acts 15:34, Rom.11:23 1Pet.1:23, 1Jn.2:16,10,14. (KJV)

 

[ryanoneil]

What do you mean by that?

Our sins are forgiven and our souls are cleansed by an infusion of the supernatural life.

So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. (2 Cor 5:17)

How do you square that statement with this question by Paul:Romans 9:21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

And this statement by Peter:

1 Peter 2:8

and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this they were also appointed.

Paul is describing this action of God. God hardens unbelievers hearts as a punishment for their sin of unbelief. God used Pharoah’s hardness of heart as both a punishment to unbelievers (they drowned in the Red Sea) and a manifestation of His glory (God parted the Red Sea for Moses the faithful.)

For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.” (R0m 9:17)

God hardens the hearts of those who choose to disbelieve.

Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills. (Rom 9:18)

**“A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this they were also appointed. (1 Peter 2:8)

Paul is not saying that God predetermines certain people to hell. Instead, Paul is explaining that God will use even the unfaithful ones, whose hearts are hardened (like Pharoah), to punish sinners and manifest His glory. God’s will can never be thwarted.

How then does belief come to one group, and how does belief not come to another group, if not by a more efficacious grace given by God to the former group (knowing that all begin with equal standing before God, remember, all come from “the same lump” [Rom 9:21] )?

God, who is the Prime Mover, grants man grace which moves man’s will toward the good. It is all God at this point. God makes the first move. This “operating grace.” At this point, man can resist or not resist the grace. If man does not resist the grace, it is the grace that is allowing his nonresistance and cooperation. Then, by using his freewill, man can actually move toward the good, and the grace strengthens and supports his will toward that end. This grace is called “cooperating grace.” Both operating and cooperating grace are the same grace, but they produce two effects. The first is to move the will (by virtue of the grace alone); the second is to will the movement of the will (by virtue of the same grace along with human freewill).

This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.(1 Tim 2:3-4)

When man habitually resists God’s grace so that He places himself in opposition to God, God withdraws His grace and allows the person to fall away (hardens their heart). Thus, God antecedently wills all men to be saved, but consequently wills some to be damned as a punishment for their rejection of grace, as His justice exacts. Thus, salvation and damnation come from the same immutable will of God, who wills to save all men, but who also wills to punish evil.

But, you, yourself, believe that one can choose not to persevere? How then is it you see Jesus speaking of “security” in those verses?

We are secure in the fact that we are saved, so long as we persevere in faith. You might not think that is security but it is. That is a promise.

Let me ask you a similair question. Are you absolutely certain that your faith is a “saving faith”? Can you predict the future? Do you even know if salvation is yours to begin with?

That’s ambiguous. Which is it for you, baptism, or through faith?

Both. I am saved. I am being saved. I will be saved.

C’mon. Belief in eternal security does not exclude human reponse. One must believe to be saved; isn’t believing a response?

Belief is a gift and a response. Wouldn’t that make it a works based salvation? **

 

[moondweller]

Jesus did not come to earth to die for us so that we can then disobey His commandments without consequences.

Why did He come to earth? What specifically are “His commandments?” What are the consequences for not keeping His commandments?

If you do not do good works, (if you disobey God’s commandments and/or fail to produce food fruits) then you deny Him by your works and you are abominable to God. Abominable persons do not inherit the kingdom of God.

What’s the difference between God’s commandments and Christ’s commandments? Please list the good fruits that must be produced by us to merit and maintain righteousness.

 

[moondweller]

Hi moon,
The original question has really taken on a lot of different ideas.
To abide is to 'remain, stay.
I found the following passages in my KJV which uses this word when it’s appropiate to what is being said.

Lu.19:5 “and Jesus came to the place, he looked up and saw him, Zaccheus, make haste, and come down, for today I miust abide at your house.” (stay)

Jn.12: 46 " I am come light into the world, that whoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. (remain)

God bless,
jean8

See also Acts 15:34, Rom.11:23 1Pet.1:23, 1Jn.2:16,10,14. (KJV)

Yes, Jesus did “stay” at the house of Zaccheus. And it is true that whoever believes in Christ does not “remain” in darkness. The reason being, he is now “in Christ.” I discussed the difference between “abiding” in Christ and being “in Christ” here

 

[Howie01]

ryanoneil:

Our sins are forgiven and our souls are cleansed by an infusion of the supernatural life.

So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. (2 Cor 5:17)

In order for me to make sense of that verse with your soteriology, that verse should include a caveat. Shouldn’t it say, “new things have come permanently for some, but for others, because of their disobedience, those new things will be pass away as well?”

ryanoneil:

Paul is describing this action of God. God hardens unbelievers hearts as a punishment for their sin of unbelief.

For the scripture says to Pharaoh,” For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name may be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” (Rom 9:17)

God clearly states that what He did with Pharaoh "was MY purpose."

IOW, it’s not the case that Pharaoh was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Rather, God “raised him up,” to destroy him. Based on statements in scripture, regarding God’s purposes, that purpose was purposed in eternity. God brought Pharaoh into the world, nurtured him for his whole life, protected him from diseases which could have killed him, brought him to that exact moment in history, and destroyed him.

God did that for the purpose of proclaiming his power over the things of the earth, including men in the earth, and the gods they worshipped. And it worked. Israel’s enemies were afraid of Israel because the news of Pharaoh’s demise at the hands of the God of Israel was widespread.

But that doesn’t answer my question which was asked in response to this statement by you:

God gives all men sufficient grace to be saved. This is true because God antecedently wills all to be saved, meaning that all have the possibility of salvation.

Here again is the question I asked, using the second verse that I posted:

How do you square your statement (God gives all men sufficient grace to be saved. This is true because God antecedently wills all to be saved, meaning that all have the possibility of salvation.) with this statement by Peter:

1 Pet 2:8

“…A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this they were also appointed.

ryanoneil:

God, who is the Prime Mover, grants man grace which moves man’s will toward the good. It is all God at this point. God makes the first move. This “operating grace.” At this point, man can resist or not resist the grace. If man does not resist the grace, it is the grace that is allowing his nonresistance and cooperation. Then, by using his freewill, man can actually move toward the good, and the grace strengthens and supports his will toward that end. This grace is called “cooperating grace.” Both operating and cooperating grace are the same grace, but they produce two effects. The first is to move the will (by virtue of the grace alone); the second is to will the movement of the will (by virtue of the same grace along with human freewill).

I don’t see that answering the question I asked, however, ISTM you’re contradicting yourself.

In your last post to me you said:

God gives all men sufficient grace to be saved. This is true because God antecedently wills all to be saved, meaning that all have the possibility of salvation. When you start talking about terms like efficacious, operating, and cooperating grace there is NO EQUALITY.

You make that statement, and then talk about “operating and cooperating grace.” Are you saying there’s no equality with God concerning salvation? If not, what is it you’re saying?

ryanoneil:

We are secure in the fact that we are saved, so long as we persevere in faith. You might not think that is security but it is. That is a promise.

That’s God promise, OTOH, but OTOH, you vociferously argue that a man cannot be sure he’ll persevere.

What kind of security is that?

ryanoneil:

Let me ask you a similair question. Are you absolutely certain that your faith is a “saving faith”?

Yes.

ryanoneil:

Can you predict the future?

I don’t need to predict the future, Ryan, I know the past. Justification is an event that is spoken of in the Gr aorist tense—an action, completed in the past. I believed, and when I believed, I was justified, and that justification is sure; it’s the mingling of justification and sanctification that leads to the belief that justification can be lost; that belief comes about by inferences taken from scripture, that are processed in light of the synonymous understanding of justification and sanctification.

Again, my sanctification can falter, but my justification is sure.

ryanoneil:

Do you even know if salvation is yours to begin with?

I do.

ryanoneil:

Both. I am saved. I am being saved. I will be saved.

That doesn’t answer my question.

ryanoneil:

Belief is a gift and a response. Wouldn’t that make it a works based salvation?

No Ryan, it wouldn’t. Scripture clearly states that belief is not on the basis of works; therefore, the response is a means of appropriating the gift, and shouldn’t be considered a work.

 

[sodak]

What a shame for all the little children who died too soon to be able to understand about Jesus and how accepting him would have saved them. It’s truly a shame, off to hell they go, eh? Since they never had a saving faith and right relationship with Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior.

 

[moondweller]

Let me ask you a similair question. Are you absolutely certain that your faith is a “saving faith”? Can you predict the future? Do you even know if salvation is yours to begin with?

I think he addressed this quite adequately here. He explains why he has certainty and you don’t (nor can you).

 

[Howie01]

ncgolf:

Understood … based on your theology your supposition is one you must maintain … though I find it unbiblical for sacraments are conduits of grace available to all.

OK.

ncgolf:

Neither is faith alone … that is the whole point … but when lives a live in faith supported by works, love … one can be confident in the promises of Christ … one should not be afraid.

But for you, the “unknown quantity” is whether or not you’ll continue in that; and because of that, ISTM your security is not secure; the only true security is Christ, alone.

ncgolf:

Why tolerant … it is just a fact.

The fact is, even pagans are capable of living good lives, with good works; however, if one is not “in Christ,” those good works are worthless (Acts 4:12). But for the one who is “in Christ,” worthless works do not spell doom (1 Cor 3:15).

ncgolf:

Yes … for those that endure.

No caveat is given in the passage concerning “endurance.” However, I submit endurance is part and parcel of the Spirit’s sealing. The passage states, in no uncertain terms, after hearing the good tidings of salvation…you were sealed in your belief with the Spirit, as a pledge of your inheritance for the redemption of the possession.

ncgolf:

Sounds like Baptism

I’m sure it does to you; however, it’s stated the sealing of the Spirit occurs at the time of hearing and believing.

ncgolf:

Sin does not grieve the HS?

Sinning does grieve the Spirit; note however, it’s not stated that one is un-sealed by sin, but the sealing remains “eis hēmera apolytrōsis,” meaning, “into the day of redemption.”

ncgolf:

Ok … confident but I do not ever infer the words absolute assurance from Paul’s writings.

Scriptural hope is confident hope, as confident as the sun rising in the morning, and setting in the evening.

ncgolf:

There is no santification without justification or am I missing something.

They’re the same thing to you. IMO, that’s what leads to the wrong conclusion that justification can be lost when one sins. Sanctification can be impeded; justification is sure.

ncgolf:

You must think we think God won’t keep his promises.

Not at all. I know you think God keeps his promises; however, the “unknown quantity” of your future behavior must supplant any security with uncertainty, if your faith is consistent with RC teaching concerning loss of salvation.

ncgolf:

One is justified by faith … yes … but that is sustained by grace … and in our Tradition that grace may be refused … we are a stupid, stubborn people sometimes.

My statement to which yours responds, included sanctification, as well as justification. Sanctification can falter, but justification is sure. Combining the former and the latter lends itself to misunderstanding.

ncgolf:

We are sanctified by the acts of mercy and charity which justification has opened us up to.

However, you also believe that sanctification gains more justification, as demonstrated by your understanding of James 2.

ncgolf:

I agree with this … when one is justified and cooperates with sanctifying grace one is renewed and becomes more Christ-like … isn’t this the whole point of Christianitiy?

Sanctification leads to holiness, or Christlikeness; justification, though linked, is a whole other “ballgame.”

ncgolf:

Because the Church is Christ … the mystical body we are enjoined at Baptism. We see no difference between Christ and His Church.

The difference between Christ and His church, is He is the head, the believing ones become a part of His body when they believe.

 

[SHW]

Why did He come to earth? What specifically are “His commandments?” What are the consequences for not keeping His commandments?What’s the difference between God’s commandments and Christ’s commandments? Please list the good fruits that must be produced by us to merit and maintain righteousness.

Hi Moondweller,

Why did He (Jesus) come to earth?

Jesus came to earth to redeem us/save us by His death on the cross [redeem us from Adam’s sin whose sin had made all of us enemies of God (Romans 5) and to also take away all of our personal sins (which we had already committed previously) at this same time of our redemption (1 John 3:5). He does this for us as a free gift of grace (Romans 5:18) through Baptism (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:1-4).

This spiritual regeneration gives us hope of eternal life. When we are baptized, we are sanctified (made holy). This Baptism justifies us because it takes away all of our sins, both Original and personal sins (1 Corinthians 6:11). We are made friends of God through Baptism. We are spiritually regenerated (born again spiritually) by Baptism. (Titus 3:4-6) The Holy Spirit moves into our souls at Baptism. Our souls have become temples of the Holy Spirit and He now abides in us. (1 Corinthians 3:16, 2 Timothy 1:14)

This does not guarantee our final salvation (inheritance of eternal life). It gives us hope for eternal life (Titus 3:7). We have to be found worthy of it at our deaths (Hebrews 3:6) in order to actually receive this promise of eternal life. (2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:25)

Titus 1:2 “in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,”

To whom does Jesus fulfill His promise of eternal life?

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

We do not actually receive eternal life unless we love Him (God) and we remain faithful to (abide in) this love of God until death. (Mark 13:13)

What does it “mean” to love Him? What is this “love” of God?

1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.”

Revelation 22:14 “Blessed are those who do His commandments,** that they may have the right to the tree of life**, and may enter through the gates into the city.”

What are the consequences for not keeping His commandments?

God does not abide in those persons who do not keep His commandments. If God is not abiding in our souls at the time of our deaths then we are not saved.** Loss of eternal life is the consequence for not keeping His commandments.** God destroys (damns) us if He is not abiding in us when we die. (1 Corinthians 3:16-18)

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

What’s the difference between God’s commandments and Christ’s commandments? What are the commandments of God?

There is no difference between God’s commandments and Christ’s commandments in the New Covenant. They are one and the same. (1 Corinthians 8:6, John 10:30, John 5:22)

What specifically are "His commandments?

The “commandments of God” is the gospel of Christ which includes all of the teachings of the Church and these also include all those things which pertain to the Royal Law.

Gospel of Christ:

1 Corinthians 14:37 “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that** the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord**.” (Luke 10:16)

Royal Law:

Mark 12:29-31 “Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

to be continued…

 

[Howie01]

What a shame for all the little children who died too soon to be able to understand about Jesus and how accepting him would have saved them. It’s truly a shame, off to hell they go, eh? Since they never had a saving faith and right relationship with Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior.

Because of Christ, God is free to give grace to whom He will.

Abraham asks the rhetorical question: "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Gen 18:25)

The expected answer is, “yes, He will.”

Therefore, should the Lord deem to send to hell all the little children who, as you put it, "died too soon to be able to understand about Jesus…," He would be right in so doing.

However, grace being free, because of Christ’s marvelous sacrifice, He also would be right to apply that grace to them, should He so deem.

My firm conviction is, He does the latter.

 

[ncgolf]

But for you, the “unknown quantity” is whether or not you’ll continue in that; and because of that, ISTM your security is not secure; the only true security is Christ, alone.

It is if I trust in Christ and grace … if I choose to do it alone I am not. This is what sin is … choosing something over Christ.

The fact is, even pagans are capable of living good lives, with good works; however, if one is not “in Christ,” those good works are worthless (Acts 4:12). But for the one who is “in Christ,” worthless works do not spell doom (1 Cor 3:15).

Worthless works for the believer is dead faith so how is one saved with dead faith.

No caveat is given in the passage concerning “endurance.” However, I submit endurance is part and parcel of the Spirit’s sealing. The passage states, in no uncertain terms, after hearing the good tidings of salvation…you were sealed in your belief with the Spirit, as a pledge of your inheritance for the redemption of the possession.

There is an inhertinance only if you remain in the family.

I’m sure it does to you;

Not to me but the Church.

Sinning does grieve the Spirit; note however, it’s not stated that one is un-sealed by sin, but the sealing remains “eis hēmera apolytrōsis,” meaning, “into the day of redemption.”

Wow.

Anyway … gotta go for the weekend … blessings all.