What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[ryanoneil]

God promised to make a new covenant with that nation. That New Covenant Christ inaugurated at the cross through His shed blood and death, and it will be established with national Israel in the future (according to Jer. 31:31).

With a 2000+ year gap?

Instituted at the Last Supper and ratified on the cross. What does this even mean?

There was only a three day gap in the New Covenant made with Israel and many in them rejected it.

Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.” As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him. (John 6:60-66)

 

[SHW]

But God says “I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.” It doesn’t say with Peter, James, John and Paul. The only way you can come up with your interpretation is by allegorizing or spiritualizing the Scriptures. IOW, make them say what YOU want them to say.

Peter, James, John, and Paul all belong to either the House of Israel or the House of Judah or both! These men are all Jews. It is to them that the promises were made! They are part of the Remnant. The remaining Remnant will join the Church when the two witnesses preach to them during the time of Antichrist after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Romans 9:27 “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.”

He “will cut short it short in righteousness” because immediately after the Great Tribulation is over, He will return in order to gather His remaining kingdom so that He can lay down His kingdom before His Father’s throne. (Hebrews 1, Mark 1:15, Mark 9:1, Luke 16:16, Luke 17:20-21, John 18:36, 1 Corinthians 4:20)

Matthew 24:29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18)

1 Corinthians 15:20-25 “But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.”

Jesus puts all enemies under His feet: Satan, Antichrist, Prophet, Death, etc. and then He hands His kingdom over to His Father. Jesus reigns in heaven right now and He will continue to reign there until He defeats Satan and the Antichrist, etc. at the end of time. After He turns His kingdom over to His Father, then the Triune God reigns forever. (Revelation 19:6, Revelation 7:15-17)

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John record only one event (Crucifixion of our Lord) but each one relates it in a slightly different way in their gospels. The Second Coming has been prophesied in different ways also, but they all refer to only one Judgment Day, the day of the Lord. (2 Peter 3:10, 2 Peter 2:9, 2 Timothy 4:8, 2 Timothy 1:18, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Corinthians 1:14, 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1 Corinthians 1:8, Acts 2:20, Matthew 7:22, Malachi 4:5) All of these Scriptures pertain to one Judgment Day, not eleven different Judgment Days.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Can you show me where the church is mentioned in any of the Tribulation passages? That is, if you even know what the Tribulation passages are.

Suffering (tribulation) is what helps purify us (members of Christ’s Church) so that we can inherit the crown of eternal life.

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.”

Acts 14:21-23 “And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” 23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.”

Romans 5:3-5 “And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.”

1 Thessalonians 3:4 “For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.”

2 Thessalonians 1:3-5 “We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;”

Enduring persecutions and tribulations until our deaths makes us worthy of inheriting the kingdom of God.

Matthew 10:22 “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.”

To the Church at Smyrna:
Revelation 2:10 "Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life."

The Great Tribulation:

Matthew 24:21 “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

Mark 13:14-20 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19** For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.** 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days."

Revelation 7:13-15 “Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.”

Many early Christians and some of those who followed after them in the faith suffered persecution and martyrdom, and Christians are still dying as martyrs today. God did not rescue them out of tribulation. He strengthened them so that they could endure it and be approved for the crown of eternal life. (Philippians 4:13)

Revelation 3:11 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.”

In no place in Scripture does it say that He will prevent us (His Church) from having to go through tribulation, especially the Great Tribulation which comes shortly before He returns for His Second Coming. He only returns once more and those who are alive after the Great Tribulation meet Him in the air and their mortal bodies are changed in a twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies. (1 Corinthians 15:51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

Like Paul stated: Acts 20:23 “… the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.”

Acts 14:22 "exhorting them (disciples) to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

Scripture states that we must persevere through tribulations so that we may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God and receive the crown of eternal life.

James 1:12 “Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Matthew 10:38 “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.”

Pax.,
SHW

 

[Howie01]

ryanoneil:

With a 2000+ year gap?

What was the last question the Jews who believed in Him asked Him before He ascended into heaven (Acts 1:6)?

And was His answer, "sorry guys, the promise of an earthly kingdom for Israel was a joke; there’ll be no earthly kingdom for Israel?"

Or did He tell them something else?

 

[SHW]

The Mosaic Law is made up of commandments (Decalogue), sacrifices and ordinances. Nothing was “added” to it.

Numbers 19:2 “This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD has commanded, saying: ‘Speak to the children of Israel, that they bring you a red heifer without blemish, in which there is no defect and on which a yoke has never come.”

This is the type of “ordinance of the law” that Jesus abolished in His New Covenant. These were laws for sacrifices and worship and dietary laws. These are the “works of the Law of Moses” that Paul was talking about in Ephesians 2:8-10 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (See also Galatians 2:16)

The animal sacrifices were abolished by Jesus’ New Covenant. The Sabbath laws are no longer in force.

Colossians 2:13-17 “And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”

The dietary laws are no longer in force:

Acts 11:4-9 “But Peter explained it to them in order from the beginning, saying: 5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object descending like a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came to me. 6 When I observed it intently and considered, I saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 7 And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8 But I said, ‘Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.’ 9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’”

Ephesians 2:14-16 “For **He Himself **is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.”

These are the “works of the Law of Moses” that are no longer in force: Sabbath laws, dietary laws, and Temple worship laws.

originally posted by SHW:
However, all commandments of the gospel of Jesus are in force and we must obey them in order to inherit eternal life.

originally posted by Moondweller: That’s not what Jesus said:

John 3:14-18 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (cf. Jn. 5:24).

Your “gospel” is a ar different one than Christ’s. But that’s what happens when you mix Law with grace and works with faith. It always results in a different gospel. Read Galatians.

Since Jesus said explicitly that if you want to enter into eternal life, then you have to obey His commandments, then I will continue to do so.

Matthew 19:16-19 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” (Romans 13:8-10, Luke 10:27)

1 Corinthians 14:37 “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.”

Galatians 1:8 “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

Hebrews 3:12 " Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;"

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Hebrews 3:18-19 “And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

"Disobedience" to God’s commandments is called “unbelief” in Scripture. If you fail to obey God’s commandments, then you do not believe. You are instead an "unbeliever."

2 Thessalonians 3:14 “And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed.”

Romans 2:8 “but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,”

John 5:24 “He who believes in Him (obeys Him) is not judged; he who does not believe (not obey Him) has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God”

Obedience is belief. Disobedience is unbelief.

James 1:12 "Blessed is the man who endures trials; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

How do we love Him? By keeping His commandments. He only saves those who “love” Him!

1 John 2:4 "He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he** who loves Me**.”

If we do not obey God’s commandments then we have no truth in us and we will not be saved. People who believe in Jesus also obey Him. No exceptions.
Pax,
SHW

 

[fbl9]

What was the last question the Jews who believed in Him asked Him before He ascended into heaven (Acts 1:6)?

And was His answer, "sorry guys, the promise of an earthly kingdom for Israel was a joke; there’ll be no earthly kingdom for Israel?"

Or did He tell them something else?

well He sure didn’t tell them anything of what you are trying to imply here,

 

[Howie01]

well He sure didn’t tell them anything of what you are trying to imply here,

What do you think I’m implying?

 

[fbl9]

What do you think I’m implying?

it doesn’t matter what i think cause i am catholic and you will disagree with me no matter what i say.

 

[moondweller]

I stopped recording them after these:

Noah
Abraham
Isaac
Abimelech
Jacob
Israel
Covenant renewed at Moab by Moses
Covenant renewed at Mt. Ebal by Joshua
Joshua makes a covenant with the people at Shechem
Jonathan brings David into a covenant with the Lord.
God’s covenant with David
Jehoiada between the LORD, the king, and the people
Josiah
King of Hebron
Asa
Hezekiah
Ezra
Covenant recorded in Nehemiah 10
etc.

Perhaps you were referring to covenants with God “speaking” directly to His people.

Pax,
SHW

God has always dealt with man according to Covenants. There are Eight Biblical Covenants which unless one knows them he cannot accurately understand the mind and motives of God as revealed in the Scriptures.

 

[ryanoneil]

What was the last question the Jews who believed in Him asked Him before He ascended into heaven (Acts 1:6)?

And was His answer, "sorry guys, the promise of an earthly kingdom for Israel was a joke; there’ll be no earthly kingdom for Israel?"

Or did He tell them something else?

Before I answer, the 2000+ comment was concerning the delay in implementing (or second establishment) the New Covenant.

Concerning the restoration of the Kingdom, there is one on earth. It has happened and continues to. Read post #473. They didn’t realize it, but Christ was giving the apostles fourty years to raise to new life: Judah and Jerusalem (Acts 1-7) and the Samaratins (Acts 8), and start the internationalization of the Kingdom in the nations beyond Israel (Act 10: 10-28). Then Christ would further restore the Kingdom by judging and removing His enemies out of Israel while ending the Old Covenant age (for all the world to see).

The Kingdom was not the physical, political, conquering power which many hoped for though. The Messianic Kingdom would be an interior kingdom where Christ ruled within the lives and hearts of men and women all over the world.

**But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer 31:33)

Jesus answered, “My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants (would) be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here.” So Pilate said to him, “Then you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say I am a king. For this I was born and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” (John 18:36-37)**

Because the Messianic Kingdom would be an interior kingdom, it would never be defeated or uprooted, as Daneil foretold in his visions of the statue.

**While you looked at the statue, a stone which was hewn from a mountain without a hand being put to it, struck its iron and tile feet, breaking them in pieces. The iron, tile, bronze, silver, and gold all crumbled at once, fine as the chaff on the threshing floor in summer, and the wind blew them away without leaving a trace. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. (Dan 2:34-35)

In the lifetime of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed or delivered up to another people; rather, it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and put an end to them, and it shall stand forever. (Dan 2:44)**

All of this was fulfilled in the first century in the (1)st of post #473. All of this prefigures and points forward to Christ’s Second Coming in glory at the end of time. He is not coming to start a new earthly kingdom but to bring justice and the New Jerusalem down from heaven. God alone is mighty enough to destroy the world and remake it in perfection.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people and God himself will always be with them (as their God). He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain, (for) the old order has passed away.” The one who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” (Rev 21:1-5)

 

[SHW]

God has always dealt with man according to Covenants. There are Eight Biblical Covenants which unless one knows them he cannot accurately understand the mind and motives of God as revealed in the Scriptures.

Hi MD,

Thank you for the link.

The New Covenant is the last covenant that God makes with His people. It has already been in force for 2000 years. His Church is the result of His New Covenant. The Remnant of Israel joins His Church shortly before He returns. The new Jerusalem is the heavenly home of His Church. His Church is His Bride. Jesus rules in His Church right now from heaven but He will not ever actually physically live on earth in Jerusalem in Israel and rule from a throne there. Earth is His footstool; never His throne. King David’s throne is in Jerusalem but Jesus’ throne is in the Heavenly Jerusalem with His elect. His Church is the means to eternal Salvation through baptism and the other Sacraments. The Church is the true Israel and it consists of one portion of Israel and the other Gentile with Jesus as its Cornerstone and they are all bound together by bonds of the Spirit, not human descent. (1 Peter 2:6, Ephesians 2:18-20, Acts 4:10-12)

Matthew 5:34-35 “But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.”

Earthly Jerusalem is the city of King David. When the two witnesses appear in this earthly Jerusalem in Israel in the Last Days, during the Great Tribulation, the remnant Jews will be converted by their testimony. These two witnesses are believed to be Enoch and Elijah, because, according to Scripture, they have not yet died. They will return to earth to witness to these Jews and they will convert them. Enoch and Elijah will be killed by the beast Antichrist. (Revelation 11:1-7)

Romans 11:1-3 “I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life?”4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

Romans 9:27-28 "Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
“ Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.”

The remnant of Israel comes into the Church in the Last Days, during the Great Tribulation and then shortly thereafter, Jesus returns at His Second Coming. Jesus never establishes an earthly kingdom in Israel. He returns on the Day of the Lord, Judgment Day.

2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.”

Matthew 24:29-30 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.’”

Jesus rules over all heaven and earth in His messianic kingdom from His throne in heaven. There is no temple in this holy Jerusalem because His people live with Him in this heavenly city forever.

Revelation 21 "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 …
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

The New Jerusalem

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 …14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb…22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

Before I answer, the 2000+ comment was concerning the delay in implementing (or second establishment) the New Covenant.

Concerning the restoration of the Kingdom, there is one on earth.

Before you answer you should study the Scriptures for what the Scriptures say. In Acts 1:6 the Jewish Apostles asked Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of David, if it was at this time He was restoring the kingdom to Israel. He didn’t deny the prophetic and covenant promises revealed in the O.T. that spoke of God restoring “the fortunes of Israel” through the establishment of a literal, earthly, Messianic Kingdom. Nor did He say they misunderstood the Scriptures and that the promised kingdom is spiritual (their question revealed that they understood the kingdom to be literal).

But instead He told them it was not for them to know the time which the Father has fixed by His own authority. But rather than the King now establishing His earthly Kingdom they instead would be His witnesses regarding His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection through which all who believe in Him (both Jew and Gentile) would receive salvation: redemption, reconciliation with God, forgiveness of sins and* eternal life in the resurrected Christ*. Their witness of Him and gospel message would begin in Jerusalem and extend to the remote parts of the earth. They, in fact, would be the foundation of the church He’s presently building, Christ Himself the corner stone (Eph. 2:20-22).

The church is not the promised Kingdom, the Kingdom is not the church. The church is the “body of Christ” which has no earthly headquarters, but rather a “Head,” Jesus Christ the righteous. It’s also the “Bride of Christ” which, like ancient weddings, the groom to whom she’s betrothed will come and receive her to Himself and bring her to His home to be with Him:2 Cor 11:2 “For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you {as} a pure virgin.”

John 14:3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, {there} you may be also."The church, and this present church age, was a “mystery,” i.e., it was not revealed in the O.T. Those prophets knew nothing of it. They prophesied of an earthly, Messianic Kingdom and the future restoring of “the fortunes to Israel,” but this church age was not revealed. For this reason one must study the Epistles to understand all the doctrines which uniquely pertain to this church age and the believers whom the Holy Spirit baptizes into the body of Christ through faith in Christ their Redeemer (1 Cor. 12:13).

 

[Howie01]

Before you answer you should study the Scriptures for what the Scriptures say. In Acts 1:6 the Jewish Apostles asked Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of David, if it was at this time He was restoring the kingdom to Israel. He didn’t deny the prophetic and covenant promises revealed in the O.T. that spoke of God restoring “the fortunes of Israel” through the establishment of a literal, earthly, Messianic Kingdom. Nor did He say they misunderstood the Scriptures and that the promised kingdom is spiritual (their question revealed that they understood the kingdom to be literal).

But instead He told them it was not for them to know the time which the Father has fixed by His own authority. But rather than the King now establishing His earthly Kingdom they instead would be His witnesses regarding His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection through which all who believe in Him (both Jew and Gentile) would receive salvation: redemption, reconciliation with God, forgiveness of sins and* eternal life in the resurrected Christ*. Their witness of Him and gospel message would begin in Jerusalem and extend to the remote parts of the earth. They, in fact, would be the foundation of the church He’s presently building, Christ Himself the corner stone (Eph. 2:20-22).

The church is not the promised Kingdom, the Kingdom is not the church. The church is the “body of Christ” which has no earthly headquarters, but rather a “Head,” Jesus Christ the righteous. It’s also the “Bride of Christ” which, like ancient weddings, the groom to whom she’s betrothed will come and receive her to Himself and bring her to His home to be with Him:2 Cor 11:2 “For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you {as} a pure virgin.”

John 14:3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, {there} you may be also."The church, and this present church age, was a “mystery,” i.e., it was not revealed in the O.T. Those prophets knew nothing of it. They prophesied of an earthly, Messianic Kingdom and the future restoring of “the fortunes to Israel,” but this church age was not revealed. For this reason one must study the Epistles to understand all the doctrines which uniquely pertain to this church age and the believers whom the Holy Spirit baptizes into the body of Christ through faith in Christ their Redeemer (1 Cor. 12:13).

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[Howie01]

Before I answer, the 2000+ comment was concerning the delay in implementing (or second establishment) the New Covenant.

Concerning the restoration of the Kingdom, there is one on earth. It has happened and continues to. Read post #473. They didn’t realize it, but Christ was giving the apostles fourty years to raise to new life: Judah and Jerusalem (Acts 1-7) and the Samaratins (Acts 8), and start the internationalization of the Kingdom in the nations beyond Israel (Act 10: 10-28). Then Christ would further restore the Kingdom by judging and removing His enemies out of Israel while ending the Old Covenant age (for all the world to see).

The Kingdom was not the physical, political, conquering power which many hoped for though. The Messianic Kingdom would be an interior kingdom where Christ ruled within the lives and hearts of men and women all over the world.

**But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer 31:33)

Jesus answered, “My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants (would) be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here.” So Pilate said to him, “Then you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say I am a king. For this I was born and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.” (John 18:36-37)**

Because the Messianic Kingdom would be an interior kingdom, it would never be defeated or uprooted, as Daneil foretold in his visions of the statue.

**While you looked at the statue, a stone which was hewn from a mountain without a hand being put to it, struck its iron and tile feet, breaking them in pieces. The iron, tile, bronze, silver, and gold all crumbled at once, fine as the chaff on the threshing floor in summer, and the wind blew them away without leaving a trace. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. (Dan 2:34-35)

In the lifetime of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed or delivered up to another people; rather, it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and put an end to them, and it shall stand forever. (Dan 2:44)**

All of this was fulfilled in the first century in the (1)st of post #473. All of this prefigures and points forward to Christ’s Second Coming in glory at the end of time. He is not coming to start a new earthly kingdom but to bring justice and the New Jerusalem down from heaven. God alone is mighty enough to destroy the world and remake it in perfection.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people and God himself will always be with them (as their God). He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain, (for) the old order has passed away.” The one who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” (Rev 21:1-5)

Here’s two links to two very good books on the subject: Israelology: the Missing Link in Systematic Theology, and The Footsteps of the Messiah.

 

[ryanoneil]

These verses confirm that Jesus is the messianic heir who sits on the throne of David and rules over His restored kingdom

Acts 2:22-36

Acts 13:22-37

After they had fallen silent, James responded, "My brothers, listen to me. Symeon has described how God first concerned himself with acquiring from among the Gentiles a people for his name. The words of the prophets agree with this, as is written: 'After this I shall return and rebuild the fallen hut of David; from its ruins I shall rebuild it and raise it up again, so that the rest of humanity may seek out the Lord, even all the Gentiles on whom my name is invoked. (Acts 15:13-17)

The whole point of the Davidic Kingdom was to make Abraham the father of a host of nations who would find blessing through his descendants. It was established to be a universal, worldwide, eternal kingdom. In other words, all the world would be made children of Abraham, blessed and beloved sons and daughters of God.

**Only ask it of me, and I will make your inheritance the nations, your possession the ends of the earth. (Ps 2:8)

May he rule from sea to sea, from the river to the ends of the earth. . . May all kings bow before him, all nations serve him. . . May his name be blessed forever; as long as the sun, may his name endure. May the tribes of the earth give blessings with his name; may all the nations regard him as favored. (Ps 2:8, 11, 17)**

Yes, David’s Kingdom sprang from national Israel but his Kingdom was always inteded to be international. Christ’s Kingdom has moved past even this. It is universal and is a Kingdom of faith and spirit. Jesus is not coming back to play politics (Law) with national Israel. If He wanted to do that He would have done it in the first place.

For he is our peace, he who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh, abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person in place of the two, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile both with God, in one body, through the cross, putting that enmity to death by it. He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near, for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord; in him you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. (Eph 2:14-22)

 

[SHW]

Before you answer you should study the Scriptures for what the Scriptures say. In Acts 1:6 the Jewish Apostles asked Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of David, if it was at this time He was restoring the kingdom to Israel. He didn’t deny the prophetic and covenant promises revealed in the O.T. that spoke of God restoring “the fortunes of Israel” through the establishment of a literal, earthly, Messianic Kingdom. Nor did He say they misunderstood the Scriptures and that the promised kingdom is spiritual (their question revealed that they understood the kingdom to be literal).

But instead He told them it was not for them to know the time which the Father has fixed by His own authority. But rather than the King now establishing His earthly Kingdom they instead would be His witnesses regarding His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection through which all who believe in Him (both Jew and Gentile) would receive salvation: redemption, reconciliation with God, forgiveness of sins and* eternal life in the resurrected Christ*. Their witness of Him and gospel message would begin in Jerusalem and extend to the remote parts of the earth. They, in fact, would be the foundation of the church He’s presently building, Christ Himself the corner stone (Eph. 2:20-22).

The church is not the promised Kingdom, the Kingdom is not the church. The church is the “body of Christ” which has no earthly headquarters, but rather a “Head,” Jesus Christ the righteous. It’s also the “Bride of Christ” which, like ancient weddings, the groom to whom she’s betrothed will come and receive her to Himself and bring her to His home to be with Him:2 Cor 11:2 “For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you {as} a pure virgin.”

John 14:3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, {there} you may be also."The church, and this present church age, was a “mystery,” i.e., it was not revealed in the O.T. Those prophets knew nothing of it. They prophesied of an earthly, Messianic Kingdom and the future restoring of “the fortunes to Israel,” but this church age was not revealed. For this reason one must study the Epistles to understand all the doctrines which uniquely pertain to this church age and the believers whom the Holy Spirit baptizes into the body of Christ through faith in Christ their Redeemer (1 Cor. 12:13).

Hi MD,

The reason that Jesus did not answer them directly is because it was not for them to know these things. He reveals Himself in His own timing. His kingdom is in our hearts on earth and it will be in the messianic heavenly Jerusalem after His Second Coming. The “fortunes of Israel” is eternal fellowship with God Himself. The heavenly Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb (Church) is described as constructed with gold, jewels, etc. These are the fortunes of Israel.

Revelation 21:3-5 “And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

This is why personal interpretation of Scripture (Scripture Alone) is not biblical. Either there is a literal earthly kingdom where Jesus rules for 1000 years or else there is not. Both of us cannot be correct.

Please see post below for more on this:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5016823&postcount=203

Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

Here’s two links to two very good books on the subject: Israelology: the Missing Link in Systematic Theology, and The Footsteps of the Messiah.

I’m sure they are interesting reads even though dispensationalism and Catholic doctrine are incompatible (Two people of God verses One people of God).

**For neither does circumcision mean anything, nor does uncircumcision, but only a new creation. Peace and mercy be to all who follow this rule and to the Israel of God. (Gal 6:16)

Therefore, remember that at one time you, Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by those called the circumcision, which is done in the flesh by human hands, were at that time without Christ, alienated from the community of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have become near by the blood of Christ. (Eph 2:11-13)**

At least we are compatible on some issues.

 

[ryanoneil]

moondweller:

Before you answer you should study the Scriptures for what the Scriptures say. In Acts 1:6 the Jewish Apostles asked Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of David, if it was at this time He was restoring the kingdom to Israel. He didn’t deny the prophetic and covenant promises revealed in the O.T. that spoke of God restoring “the fortunes of Israel” through the establishment of a literal, earthly, Messianic Kingdom. Nor did He say they misunderstood the Scriptures and that the promised kingdom is spiritual (their question revealed that they understood the kingdom to be literal).

Jesus had just finished speaking to them about the kingdom over forty day and He said the exact opposite of a literal earthly kingdom in the Gospel account. I suggest you re-read Matthew chapter 13.

**He said to them in reply, "Because knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been granted to you, but to them it has not been granted. (Mat 13:11)

"But blessed are your eyes, because they see, and your ears, because they hear. Amen, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. (Mat 13:16-17)

“Do you understand all these things?” They answered, “Yes.” And he replied, “Then every scribe who has been instructed in the kingdom of heaven is like the head of a household who brings from his storeroom both the new and the old.” (Mat 13:51-52)**

I’m not suggesting they knew everything, or their would be no need for the Holy Spirit, but the mystery was reveiled to them throughout the Acts of the Apostles. Then they were able to understand that entrance into the Kingdom didn’t depent on holy bloodlines, but doing “the will of my Father in Heaven” (Mat 12:50). And that all the words of Christ included the Gentiles.

And there will be wailing and grinding of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God and you yourselves cast out. And people will come from the east and the west and from the north and the south and will recline at table in the kingdom of God. For behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last." (Luke 13:28-30)

The mystery of God in (Rev 10:7) is the same hidden message of the seven sealed scroll. The Kingdom of Christ is not physically a part of political Judiasm. It does not depend on Jerusalem or its Temple. Rather, it extends and invitation to all men and women who desire communion with the one true God. And it took the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, and the end of the Old Covenant Age, to wake people up.

Some never caught on to what the Kingdom was to be like, and some still don’t today. So when the apostles asked when the Kingdom would be restored, he practically spelled out everything for them in Mathew 24 (1) post 473)]. The only thing He didn’t tell them was the the day and the hour.

 

[SHW]

ryanoneil;5017867Some never caught on to what the Kingdom was to be like:

.** The only thing He didn’t tell them was the the day** and the hour.

That is so true! Jesus is speaking of His Second Coming.

Acts 1:6-11 "So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth." 9 And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” RSV-CE

Matthew 26:64 “Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.”

Mark 14:61-62 “61 But He kept silent and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?” 62And Jesus said to him: I am. And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

Hereafter, (from now on) you will see Him sitting on the throne in heaven at His Father’s right hand.

Luke 21:20 "And when you shall see Jerusalem compassed about with an army; then know that the desolation thereof is at hand. 21 Then let those who are in Judea, flee to the mountains; and those who are in the midst thereof, depart out: and those who are in the countries, not enter into it. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things may be fulfilled, that are written. 23 But woe to them that are with child, and give suck in those days; for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword; and shall be led away captives into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles; till the times of the nations be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, by reason of the confusion of the roaring of the sea and of the waves; 26 Men withering away for fear, and expectation of what shall come upon the whole world. For the powers of heaven shall be moved; 27 And then they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud, with great power and majesty. 28 But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads, because your redemption is at hand."

Hereafter, Jesus sits at the right hand of His Father. He will come in a cloud with great power and majesty, and our redemption is at hand when He comes. His messianic kingdom begins with His Second Coming on this great Judgment Day, the Day of the Lord.

He is speaking of His Second Coming. There is no earthly kingdom in Jerusalem in Israel where He rules for “1000 years.” 1000 years is symbolic for a long period of time. He is ruling for “1000 years” right now while He is sitting at the right hand of His Father. He puts an end to all remaining powers and authorities when He sends Satan, the Prophet, and the Antichrist into hell. (1 Peter 3:21-22, Ephesians 6:12) Then He comes and takes the remaining believers who are on earth home to heaven with Him. They meet Him in the air. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53) Judgment Day has arrived. He judges the nations and He then hands His kingdom over to His Father and they both rule from their thrones in heaven forever.

The Great Tribulation:
Revelation 20:7 “Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Acts 2:20 "The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

The Day of the Lord is Judgment Day. This is the Day and the hour of His Second Coming. His Messianic Kingdom begins on this Day.

Pax,
SHW