What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[Hope3]

Then ultimately you’re saying it’s by works and therefore it is earned. But that’s not the gospel the Apostles took to the world, nor the one recorded and preserved in the Scriptures for us.

No, we lose salvation by either “no good works” or “evil works.” This is sound biblical teaching.

Revelation 3:15-17 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—”

2 Peter 2:20-22 “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Revelation 2:10 "Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. [Mark 13:13]

Once we are justified, we must endure to the end of our lives living the faith in imitation of Christ, striving to be perfect, if we desire to inherit the crown of eternal life. [Romans 12:2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 4:13, Philippians 3:12, Colossians 1:28, Colossians 4:12, 1 Thessalonians 3:10, James 1:4, James 2:22, 1 John 2:5, 1 John 4:12-17, Revelation 3:1-3]

Who does Jesus save in the “end?”

Hebrews 5:9 “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,”

He saves those who obey Him! [Acts 10:34-36]

Who does He take vengeance on?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 "and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Hope3

 

[moondweller]

No, we lose salvation by either “no good works” or “evil works.”

Saved by works (good works), nonetheless.Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."It doesn’t matter what kind of works, one is still not saved as a result of works - period. Notice Paul says “you have been saved.” True believers are not called to a life on probation but a life lived by faith based on the reality of his salvation.

 

[moondweller]

MD

Thank you for your most recent post.

At present I am trying to study the Pastoral Epistles and I note you quote Tit 2:11-14. Thus this is an opportunity for me to focus on the verses you have used. First of all I had to find out which version of the Bible you used. I gather it is the New American Standard Bible (with codes, 1995).

An initial reading causes me no problems. For a Catholic it seems very straight forward. We are clearly instructed “to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age”. To me this seems to show that the ways we live (our works) are important.

D. V. Edelman wrote in the Anchor Bible Commentary:

Thus good living for Christians is important. I am sure you would not disagree with this,

However in the Catholic Collegeville Bible Commentary Fr Jerome H. Neyrey S. J. wrote:

I do not think you would disagree much with this. As I said before we are not too distant. Catholics believe Christ is our Savior, but our Christian life must be ethical.

All true believers are called to a holy life. But they’re not saved as a result of that holy life. It’s those already redeemed (purchased) through the blood of Christ (and know that they are) that are exhorted to glorify God in their bodies.1 Cor 6:20 “For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.”

I do not see how any Christian could seriously disagree with the concept that Jesus is our Savior and that the Christian should avoid sin.

But for most Catholics they believe that they’re only initially saved, not through faith but through baptism. They still hope to be saved based on their performance in this life.

Thus for Catholics it is clear that Jesus is our Savior, we do not merit grace, but the outcome of our salvation is good living.

This is true as long as you don’t make “good living” the ultimate cause of your salvation.

I am sure you would, partially at least, agree with this.

There are built in effects with salvation, such as, regeneration. The saved, spiritually regenerated believer is made alive to the things of God and desires to please Him in this life. But pleasing Him is not the cause of his salvation, only the effect of it. God Himself is the one who saves by grace through faith…not as a result of works.

It’s true that one cannot “merit” grace. That would be an oxymoron. But a stronger position would be that one cannot merit salvation that is based on grace having been wrought by the finished work of Another. Such a salvation can be entered into only by FAITH. Wouldn’t you agree?

 

[ryanoneil]

We are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and good works.

"Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. (Mt 7:1-2)

Why doesn’t the Lord say we are judged just by faith? Because we are judged according to how we responded to God’s grace during our lives.

who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God. (Rom 2:6-11)

Why does Paul say God will judge every man according to his works? Because our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace.

But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Cor 3:15)

if works are unnecessary for salvation, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Hope3:

No, we lose salvation by either “no good works” or “evil works.” This is sound biblical teaching.

Saved by works (good works), nonetheless.Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."It doesn’t matter what kind of works, one is still not saved as a result of works - period. Notice Paul says “you have been saved.” True believers are not called to a life on probation but a life lived by faith based on the reality of his salvation.

So you are just preaching OSAS. You still have not explained how you preach the utmost value of good works today. Don’t quote Scripture, (your usual evasion) just tell us how you or your fellow OSAS bacs preach the utmost value of good works to your fellow OSAS bacs. Wouldn’t happen would it?

 

[moondweller]

We are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and good works.

"Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you. (Mt 7:1-2)

You present blatant contradictions here that cannot be overlooked, Ryan. You begin by saying “We are saved,” but then go on to say that salvation must yet be achieved by us. You say we are “saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone,” but then go to say that God desires us to “achieve” salvation “through perseverance and good works.”

In Acts 15:11 Peter was testifying to the fact that salvation, for both Jews and Gentiles, is through faith alone:Acts 15:8 "And God, who knows the heart (the seat of faith, Rom. 10:9-10), testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith."In Eph. 2:5 Paul states that we true believers are instantly “made alive” (born again) “together” with the resurrected Christ, even positionally seating us with Christ in the heavenly “in Him,” “so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.” That God positions the believer in the resurrected Christ “so that in the ages to come” He might show His grace in kindness toward him is a testimony to the believer’s eternal security.

This is the difference between Catholicism’s doctrine of infused “sanctifying grace” and the Biblical doctrine of “salvation by grace.” The latter is the grace that saves forever by a God who has the power to do so through the Son who accomplished it, once for all, by the sacrifice of Himself. Paul, in context, goes on to write:Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Why doesn’t the Lord say we are judged just by faith? Because we are judged according to how we responded to God’s grace during our lives.

Here’s what He states in respect to faith and judgment:John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life” (cf. Jn. 3:14-18)As you can see according to Christ Himself the avoidance of judgment unto condemnation, and the gift of eternal life, are based not on works during one’s life but belief in Him at a point of time in one’s life.

who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God. (Rom 2:6-11)

Don’t take Paul out of the context of his whole argument. He goes on to say that both Jews and Gentiles are charged to be “under sin” and that in the whole human race in Adam “there is NONE righteous, not even one” (Rom. 3:9-10). And then goes on to say that there is a “righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe…for all sinned (past tense) and (present tense, continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:22-24). All this is in conjunction with Christ’s words in Jn. 3:14-18 and 5:24.

Why does Paul say God will judge every man according to his works? Because our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace.

Actaully he differentiates between those who seek glory and honor “through” (not “by”) perseverance and good works, and those who disobey the truth (ref. Jn. 14:6) and obey wickedness. The former are true believers, the latter unbelievers.

But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Cor 3:15)

if works are unnecessary for salvation, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

Again you quote out of context. The context is rewards for works done while in this body, not salvation. Though the believer’s works will be appraised (judged) as to their worth and rewarded accordingly (or not), the believer himself, though experiencing the “fire” (judgment), is himself saved since his salvation is not based on works but faith.

Anyway, most Catholics erroneously interpret this passage as referring to purgatory and cleaning the Catholic of residual sins by “fire.”

And is it not taught that those in purgatory are saved and are guaranteed heaven?

 

[moondweller]

So you are just preaching OSAS. You still have not explained how you preach the utmost value of good works today. Don’t quote Scripture, (your usual evasion) just tell us how you or your fellow OSAS bacs preach the utmost value of good works to your fellow OSAS bacs. Wouldn’t happen would it?

I already answered you: To the glory of God (1 Cor. 6:20). It’s what we’ve been “created in Christ Jesus” for (Eph. 2:10). Not BY them, mind you, but FOR them. Our salvation, OTOH, was “by grace through faith…not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9)

 

[ryanoneil]

You present blatant contradictions here that cannot be overlooked, Ryan. You begin by saying “We are saved,” but then go on to say that salvation must yet be achieved by us. You say we are “saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone,” but then go to say that God desires us to “achieve” salvation “through perseverance and good works.”

I don’t present blatant contradictions. I present the entire gospel message. You are mischaracterizing the Catholic position. Everything you say above is about remaining in God’s saving grace. It is a contradiction to you because you use one half of the gospel to invalidate the other. You should reconcile them instead of pit them against one another.

I Have Been Saved
Rom. 8:24
Eph. 2:5,8
2 Tim. 1:9
Titus 3:5

I Am Being Saved
1 Cor. 1:18
2 Cor. 2:15
Phil. 2:12
1 Peter 1:9

I Will Be Saved
Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13
Mark 16:16
Acts 15:11
Rom. 5:9-10
Rom. 13:11
1 Cor. 3:15
1 Cor. 5:5
2 Tim. 2:11-12
Heb. 9:28
James 5:15

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I already answered you: To the glory of God (1 Cor. 6:20). It’s what we’ve been “created in Christ Jesus” for (Eph. 2:10). Not BY them, mind you, but FOR them. Our salvation, OTOH, was “by grace through faith…not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9)

That is VERY SPECIOUS reasoning. It must look all very convincing to those that are not clear headed enough to see its emptiness and worthlessness.

It (this muddle-headed reasoning) does not take into account man’s fallen nature (even though he is saved by his faith.) Oh, sure, his Faith will save him, and God’s grace will enable him to do good works, BUT WILL THE MAN CO-OPERATE WITH GOD’S GRACE? That is the question your reasoning side steps with irrelevant Scripture Quotes, wresting them to your destruction.

God’s grace is NOT FORCED upon the saved. They must still WORK with God. THEY MUST DO WORKS in other words. Not works that happen without the man’s knowledge, or works that just happen because now he is saved, BUT WORKS that he must WORK at WITH GOD’s grace. If that man DOES NOT work by co-operating with God’s Grace his Faith is empty, and his Salvation in jeopardy.

 

[moondweller]

I don’t present blatant contradictions. I present the entire gospel message. You are mischaracterizing the Catholic position. Everything you say above is about remaining in God’s saving grace. It is a contradiction to you because you use one half of the gospel to invalidate the other. You should reconcile them instead of pit them against one another.

I Have Been Saved
Rom. 8:24
Eph. 2:5,8
2 Tim. 1:9
Titus 3:5

I Am Being Saved
1 Cor. 1:18
2 Cor. 2:15
Phil. 2:12
1 Peter 1:9

I Will Be Saved
Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13
Mark 16:16
Acts 15:11
Rom. 5:9-10
Rom. 13:11
1 Cor. 3:15
1 Cor. 5:5
2 Tim. 2:11-12
Heb. 9:28
James 5:15

I pointed out your your blatant contradictions and you didn’t address them.

It’s impossible for one to be saved simultaneously "by grace through faith…not as a result of works," and “by works.” One is either “saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works” (the Biblical position), or one is saved by works (the non-Biblical position). Learn from Paul’s Epistle written to your church:Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."If you are “being saved” then you have not yet “been saved.”

If you “will be saved” then you are not “being saved” nor have you “been saved.”

If you “have been saved” then it was on the basis of grace through faith alone.

If you are “being saved” then it’s a process based on works.

If you “will be saved” then you’re presently on probation waiting future judgment of your works.

The latter two cancel out the first and teach (contrary to Scripture) a salvation based entirely on works. Which, according to Paul, is “a different gospel” because being based on works “grace is no longer grace.”

 

[moondweller]

That is VERY SPECIOUS reasoning. It must look all very convincing to those that are not clear headed enough to see its emptiness and worthlessness.

Interesting that you consider 1 Cor 6:20: “For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body,” as “emptiness” and “worthless.” I think that’s because of your denial of God’s perfect redemption through the, once for all, sacrificial work of Jesus Christ for our salvation.

It (this muddle-headed reasoning) does not take into account man’s fallen nature (even though he is saved by his faith.)

Actually, being saved “BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH” (not by faith) does take into account man’s fallen nature. It’s why salvation must be according to divine GRACE. Man in such a condition cannot merit it.

Oh, sure, his Faith will save him, and God’s grace will enable him to do good works, BUT WILL THE MAN CO-OPERATE WITH GOD’S GRACE?

You’re still getting it wrong. It’s not God’s grace that enables works, but “by grace” He saves apart from works: (Eph. 2:8)…“not as as result of works.”

That is the question your reasoning side steps with irrelevant Scripture Quotes, wresting them to your destruction.

It’s side stepping divine grace that causes one’s destruction.

God’s grace is NOT FORCED upon the saved. They must still WORK with God. THEY MUST DO WORKS in other words.

It’s “by grace” that the saved are saved. It’s not by grace the saved are enabled to work. Salvation is “not as result of works.” This is totally convoluted.

Not works that happen without the man’s knowledge, or works that just happen because now he is saved, BUT WORKS that he must WORK at WITH GOD’s grace. If that man DOES NOT work by co-operating with God’s Grace his Faith is empty, and his Salvation in jeopardy.

Man is “saved BY grace THROUGH faith…a gift of God, not as a result of works.” The faith through which God saves “by grace” is in the Person and work of Jesus Christ. Such faith is not “empty” faith. Nor was the price paid for the believer’s eternal redemption “worthless,” it was “precious.”

 

[Hope3]

Man is “saved BY grace THROUGH faith…a gift of God, not as a result of works.”

We all know this. What is your problem? This does not state that man cannot lose his salvation. It just states that this is how he is saved in the first place.

But, Peter warns the faithful:

2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

If they return to sin after they are saved, then they are no longer saved. Very plain. Most persons on this forum can comprehend this teaching. Man must continue “through faith” to be saved as long as he lives. If he sins, then he no longer has “faith,” and he will not inherit eternal life. Faith/belief is obedience. [Revelation 2:10]

Jesus continues to save those who obey Him. He does not continue to save those who turn away from Him. [Acts 5:32, 2 Thessalonians 3:14, Hebrews 5:9, 1 John 2:4, 2 Thessalonians 1:8, Hebrews 10:26-30]

Ezekiel 18:24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.”

If a righteous man sins, then he “dies” (loses eternal life) unless he repents before physical death.

A righteous man is a saved man. When he sins, he is no longer righteous. An unrighteous man does not inherit eternal life.

Galatians 1:6 “I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,”

2 Timothy 4:3-5 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”

What happens to those who preach a different or another gospel? They are accursed. Accursed persons do not inherit eternal life.

Galatians 1:9 “As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.”

Jesus saves us. But we must obey Him in order to continue to be saved and inherit eternal life.

You continue to misinterpret scripture to fit your belief of eternal security. It is not biblical.

Hope3

 

[ryanoneil]

I pointed out your your blatant contradictions and you didn’t address them.

It’s impossible for one to be saved simultaneously “by grace through faith…not as a result of works,” and “by works.” One is either “saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works” (the Biblical position), or one is saved by works (the non-Biblical position). Learn from Paul’s Epistle written to your church:Rom 11:6 “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

We are saved by grace through “faith and good works”. There is no contradiction when you understand that good works fall under grace. There is a contradiction when you cling to one verse (at the expense of the rest of the NT) and don’t understand what Paul means by “works”.

Paul is refering to the “works” of the second legislation which deals with Israel’s fallen condition after the golden calf affair. (Exodus 33-40, all of the Book of Leviticus and the first ten chapters of Numbers) It was God hoping to free Israel from it’s idolatry. The Jews came to believe that God “owed them” if they lived up to the judicial and ceremonial penance of “the Law.” That is what Paul rejects- the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor.

If you are “being saved” then you have not yet “been saved.”

If you “will be saved” then you are not “being saved” nor have you “been saved.”

If you “have been saved” then it was on the basis of grace through faith alone.

If you are “being saved” then it’s a process based on works.

If you “will be saved” then you’re presently on probation waiting future judgment of your works.

The latter two cancel out the first and teach (contrary to Scripture) a salvation based entirely on works. Which, according to Paul, is “a different gospel” because being based on works “grace is no longer grace.”

That is your non-biblical OSAS doctrine talking. Why don’t you clear things up for us and explain the verses I provided?

 

[banjo]

You’re still getting it wrong. It’s not God’s grace that enables works, but “by grace” He saves apart from works: (Eph. 2:8)…"***

Christ commands us to love one another as He has loved us (Jn 13:34). How does one demonstrate love without doing something?***

 

[NoelFitz]

Hope 3

You wrote:

Jesus saves us. But we must obey Him in order to continue to be saved and inherit eternal life.

This is clear, unambiguous and sound.

Congratulations on reducing a very complex problem to clear language.

Jesus is our Saviour, there is no doubt about this.

I see you have only submitted four posts. I look forward to reading more contributions from you.

You do not give your religious denomination. I wonder why.

Your view reflects somewhat the* new perspective on Paul.* Would you agree?

Your clear answer seems to show a huge background in scripture and theology. Would you like to tell us about this?

Finally I wonder how many people here have changed or modified their opinion based on discussions in CA.

 

[Hope3]

Congratulations on reducing a very complex problem to clear language.

Jesus is our Saviour, there is no doubt about this.

I see you have only submitted four posts. I look forward to reading more contributions from you.

You do not give your religious denomination. I wonder why.

Your view reflects somewhat the* new perspective on Paul.* Would you agree?

Your clear answer seems to show a huge background in scripture and theology. Would you like to tell us about this?

Finally I wonder how many people here have changed or modified their opinion based on discussions in CA.

Hi Noel,

Thank you for your nice words. I am a cradle Catholic, but remained Catholic even after intense study of our world’s religions.

I “knew” that Jesus spoke literally about His Flesh being real Food and His Blood being real Drink, so I could not abandon Him in the tabernacle and in Holy Eucharest for an “easier” religion.

It constantly awes me that He chooses to become present on the altars in every Catholic Mass in order to nourish us literally and spiritually until we can be with Him forever in heaven. (Paschal lambs must be eaten.) God loves us this much!

It is reasonable, then, for Him to expect us to strive for perfection in order for us to inherit eternal life when we die.

Romans 12:1 “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.”

I have relatives who are very anti-Catholic and this is what convinced me to defend my faith using Scripture as the main defense for Catholic teaching.

What do you mean by this “new perspective on Paul?”

Well, if Moondweller is the “norm” for non-Catholic debaters on this forum, then “we” are not succeeding very well in changing these persons’ opinions.

However, I do know that there have been converts to our Catholic faith because a person stated on another thread that he converted because of Cathoic Answers Forum.

Hope3

 

[NoelFitz]

Hi Hope3

Thanks for your reply.

Your posts are not only sound, but also courteous.

You ask me about the new perspective on Paul.

It is a relatively new way at looking at Paul’s teaching, which reconciles Catholic and Protestant views. For example circumcision makes a Jew a Jew but does not save him. I am not too clear about it. You might like to look at:

thepaulpage.com/

Over the last three decades, a revolutionary breakthrough in New Testament scholarship has been rocking the academic Christian world. The scholars at the forefront of the revolution – E.P. Sanders, James D.G. Dunn, N.T. Wright, and others – have been pioneering a new approach to the letters of the first-century apostle to the Gentiles, Paul of Tarsus.

These Protestants are engaging first-century Judaism on its own terms, not in the context of the Protestant-Catholic debates of the sixteenth century. The result: A new historical perspective on the meaning of Paul’s polemic against the Judaizers which occupies so much of his recorded correspondence.

What is this new perspective? At its core is the recognition that Judaism is not a religion of self-righteousness whereby humankind seeks to merit salvation before God. Paul’s argument with the Judaizers was not about Christian grace versus Jewish legalism. His argument was rather about the status of Gentiles in the church. Paul’s doctrine of justification, therefore, had far more to do with Jewish-Gentile issues than with questions of the individual’s status before God.

This new perspective on Paul promises to help us:

* Better understand Paul and the early church;
* Reconcile contemporary biblical scholarship with theology;
* Build common ground between Catholics and Protestants;
* Improve dialogue between Christians and Jews; and
* Flesh out a theological foundation for social justice.

There are many web pages about it that can be found using a google search for “new perspective on Paul”.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Hope3:

Well, if Moondweller is the “norm” for non-Catholic debaters on this forum, then “we” are not succeeding very well in changing these persons’ opinions.

I don’t know whether or not he is the “norm,” but I wouldn’t be so quick to judge that “we” are not succeeding. There is a type of person that must have time (sometimes a lot of time) to digest things that he has heard. There has been a LOT of very pointed and apropos Scripture citations and posts which very clearly enunciate the Scriptural and Catholic interpretation of “Abiding in Christ.”

Now if someone ignores or shuts his ears to what is being said and quoted, that can not be helped by argumentation. Only the Holy Spirit with the help of grace can melt a stubborn heart.

 

[banjo]

Hi Hope3

Thanks for your reply.

Your posts are not only sound, but also courteous.

You ask me about the new perspective on Paul.

It is a relatively new way at looking at Paul’s teaching, which reconciles Catholic and Protestant views. For example circumcision makes a Jew a Jew but does not save him. I am not too clear about it. You might like to look at:

thepaulpage.com/

There are many web pages about it that can be found using a google search for “new perspective on Paul”.

Noel,
I hope you won’t mind a friendly reminder; you have to be more alert when you are sailing in uncharted waters.
God bless…

 

[moondweller]

We are saved by grace through “faith and good works”.

To the contrary: “…through faith…the gift of God; not as a result of works.”

There is no contradiction when you understand that good works fall under grace.

To the contrary: “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.”

There is a contradiction when you cling to one verse (at the expense of the rest of the NT) and don’t understand what Paul means by “works”.

The contradiction occurs when you, at the expense of grace, incorporate works as a means of salvation. Any works. What Paul meant by works was works, period; weather works of Law or “works of righteousness” (Titus 3:5). Paul’s doctrine on salvation is “*by grace through faith” …hence, “NOT as a result of works.” There’s nothing esoteric about it, Ryan.

Throughout his Epistles he stresses salvation according to God’s grace directly connected to personal faith in the Person and finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. As he wrote to the Corinthian church:1 Cor 1:17-18 “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. For the word of the cross (not works) is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”“Perishing” and “saved” are in the present tense (communicating frequentative, rather than duratative), and Paul here vividly portrays the constant stream of lost unbelievers toppling into eternity without Christ, and the fewer, but still constant stream of the saved (“by grace through faith”) entering the door of eternal fellowship with Christ.1 Cor 1:21 “For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message (i.e., of the cross, not works) preached to save those who believe” (salvation “by grace through faith”).In respect to Rom. 11:6 you wrote:

Paul is referring to the “works” of the second legislation which deals with Israel’s fallen condition after the golden calf affair. (Exodus 33-40, all of the Book of Leviticus and the first ten chapters of Numbers) It was God hoping to free Israel from it’s idolatry. The Jews came to believe that God “owed them” if they lived up to the judicial and ceremonial penance of “the Law.” That is what Paul rejects- the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor.

You’re rationalizing. The context is found in Rom. 9:30-32 where Israel failed to attain righteousness because they pursued a righteousness according to works rather than the righteousness which is by (v. 30; lit. “out of”) faith:Rom 9:32 "Why? Because {they did} not {pursue it} by faith, but as though {it were} by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,…"Sournd familiar?*