What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[moondweller]

You are trying to contextualise James yet not a single word from his book or the chapter in question is in your post. Can’t you see how absurd that is?

Go back and read all my posts. I covered the context of James (Ja. 2:18).

What a sad sorry picture of humanity you paint. Use your brains here. If we have no free will then God is an unjust God for condemning us to hell for sins we cannot help but commit. Do you see how irrational that is?

I said nothing about Hell, But, again, when it came to your being born spiritually dead in Adam you had no choice in the matter. Nor did you have a choice in the matter that when Adam sinned all sinned - including you. And you had no choice in the matter when through Adam death spread to all men - even you:1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."But NONE of this has anything to do with the Law or the Decalogue contained in it. Death is not a result of our transgressing Divine Commandments, but the result of Adam’s one transgression. The only way out of this mess is to get out of Adam. Hence, another Adam had to be provided. This God graciously did in the Person of the incarnate Son.1 Cor 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.I’ve already pointed out to you the Divinely revealed fact that man, dead in Adam, needs righteousness and life; and neither of these are found in the principle of law (Commandment keeping):Gal 3:21b "For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law."Get it? No law ever given was able to impart life. Hence, neither righteousness nor life can be based on the principle of law; and man, dead in Adam, is in dire need of both. They’re found only in Christ.

But you are! For THe simple reason that CHRIST DID NOT ABOLISH THE LAW, we are ALL STILL UNDER THE COMMANDMENTS.

I’ll ask you again. Are you Jewish? Was it your ancestors at the foot of Mt. Sinai? “I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods before Me” was said to Jews not Gentiles. Gentiles were steeped in pagan polytheism from Egypt (from which the sons of Israel were ransomed by blood) to Rome; when He who fulfilled the Law gave Himself a ransom (through His blood) for ALL (1 Tim. 2:6; cf. Matt. 20:28; Mk. 10:45).

“Abolish” in Matt. 5:17 is the Greek word kataluo and metaphorically means to overthrow, i.e. render vain, deprive of success, bring to naught. No, Jesus, born a Jew, born under the jurisdiction of the Law, came to “fulfill” (Gr. pleroo) the Law. That is, to consummate it in His Person and performance. Paul called Christ “the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Rom. 10:4). “End” is the Greek word “telos,” meaning “purpose” or “goal.” The Law (including the 10 Commandments) looked to the Jewish Messiah as its goal. Through the Law came “the knowledge of sin” (Rom. 3:20). But through the One to whom it pointed (its goal) comes “righteousness” and “life” to all those who believe in Him.

I can’t believe I am hearing this. You think the Ten Commandments are only supposed to be followed by the Jews?

You don’t comprehend what you read. I never made such a statement. The Law ended at the cross. The covenant of Law separated Jews from Gentiles; described as a wall of hostility between them (Eph. 2:14ff). But, says Paul:Eph 2:14-16 "…He Himself is our peace, who made both {groups into} one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, {which is} the Law of commandments {contained} in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, {thus} establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity."So you see, Christ DID abolish the Law. If He hadn’t He could not build His church which He is presently calling out, through faith, from both Jews and Gentiles.

Tell me, if you commit idolatry and worshipped Baal and other gods, will God not hold you accountable for that sin? because as you claim you are not under the law, you can therefore commit idolatry, murder, theft, adultery and that is all okay with God?

The Law made committing idolatry, murder, theft and adultery transgressions of specific commandments. It didn’t make men sinners, but through it sinners became transgressors as well. Nor did the Law make those activities sins, but the aforementioned were always sins in God’s sight and were never “ok” with Him. What the Law did was make those sins “utterly sinful” (Rom. 7:13) in that they became transgressions of Holy Commandments.

And the sin He takes away are the sins we commit. Otherwise there would be no sin to take away.

The sins we commit He took away 2000 years ago. They were imputed to Him on the cross and buried with Him in death.

Answer it Moondweller. If you break all the commandments, and continue to break the commandments without repenting, will you still be saved?

Your question is non-sequitur. The Scriptures have clearly told you that through the Law comes the knowledge of sin - not salvation. Men are in need of LIFE and RIGHTEOUSNESS, and these are gifted only in the resurrected Christ - not Law:Gal 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."Was the death of Christ needless, Bene? Does righteousness come through Commandment keeping?

 

[moondweller]

You’re unbelievable my friend. I’ve never come across anyone who exhibits as much ease in being wrong as you do; it’s effortless for you, IMO.

 

[SHW]

Once again, the verb commits, is a present, participle. Whoever is continuously committing sin, is also continually committing lawlessness; therefore, it’s not one sin, but a life marked by a continuous, daily pattern of sin that never stops.

You’ll find that in every case. It’s easy to understand why God had the NT written in Greek. It’s tensing is precise.

I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture and your understanding of a Greek “present participle” concerning a “continual habit of sin.” It only takes one mortal sin to become spiritually dead. Adam committed one deadly sin and lost eternal life for all of us and caused death and decay for all of us by this one sin. The bad angels committed one deadly sin and are barred from heaven forever. Why do you think it should be any different for us?

Matthew 19:16-20 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” 20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

Looks like people are able to keep God’s commandments, contrary to popular belief. :tsktsk:

Revelation 14:12 “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”

1 Timothy 5:8 “But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”

Matthew 10:33 “But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.”

Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work”

It only takes one denial to lose your salvation; not a continual habit of denial!

Speaking of Greek grammar: Then you should have no problem understanding that Peter is the Rock and not Jesus, and it is also not Peter’s faith in Jesus that is the Rock, etc. in Matthew 16:18. So why aren’t you in Jesus’ Church which He built upon Peter the Rock?

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Ezekiel 33:12-20 "Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13** When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die.** 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

It only takes one transgression (only one mortal sin) on one day to lose your righteousness and lose eternal life.

Also, you haven’t answered my question to you in my last post concerning how you know that there are only believers in the Galatian church, and, you haven’t provided a context for either the last post, or this one for that matter.

Matthew 12:50 “For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother (brethren).”

Galatians 1:11 “But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.”

Galatians 4:31 “So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.”

Galatians 5:13-15 “For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!”

Galatians 5:19-21"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which **I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. **

Galatians 6:1-9 “Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. 2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For each one shall bear his own load. 6 Let him who is taught the word share in all good things with him who teaches. 7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.”

Galatians 6:18 “18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.”
**
Brethren are brothers and sisters in Christ.** Paul is addressing the Brethren in Galatians. Paul did not write epistles to unbelievers. He only wrote to the Churches that were already established by the Apostles and Disciples.

Pax,
SHW

 

[benedictus2]

This will be a quick one as it is late and I just got home. Will try to do justice to your post tomorrow.

You’ve not explained the verse; are you saying Catholic justification is by works?

The verse is very plain. Faith and works go together. It is not enough to just believe in Christ. That believe has to manifest itself in works: in following Christ and in doing the will of His Father.
If you are not convinced read the entire chapter.

The consequences of the law pertain only to those who are under the law:

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Warning: if you seek to be justified by the law, you cannot break any part of the law; if you do, it’s curtains for you (cf Mt 5:48; Jas 2:10). It’s your choice; God’s provided a better way through Christ.

Here I go again then with the same question:

• If the consequences of the law pertain only to those who are under the law, and
• Since you say that we are no longer under the law
• Therefore, we can violate the law (commit idolatry, murder, adultery, thievery,etc) and there will be no consequences for us?

See above.

No. You evaded the question above that is why I had to state it again. So once again. If you break all the commandments, are there any consequences for you. And this time no evasion please.

That man kept all the commandments; have you?

Howie, evasion does not work. Here is that post again:

benedictus2:

That is right The Law by itself cannot grant salvation because only God can grant salvation. However, obedience to the law is necessary for salvation refer to Matthew 19:16.

OK

You say okay to this statement when it contradicts your statement above?

No.

Don’t you even see your inconsistencies here? Go back to my post and your reply and you will see how completely illogical and contradictory your answers are.

And the rich young man said he kept all of the commandments, and so, he didn’t need a savior, at least not from his sins, because the rich young ruler, by his own admission, was sinless.

But he did. Everyone was saved by Christ. And yes, I can see the questions tick tick ticking in your head but I will wait until you post them.

In what way do you think I’m pitting Paul against Christ?

Because whenever I quote Christ you fire back with a quote from Paul that “seems” to disprove what Christ said. Notice the word “seems” because the contradiction is only in your interpretation.

I am?

Yes you are. Re-read what you have written and you will realize that you are.

Why do you think that?

I can’t remember what I was referring to so I’ll pass on this one in the meantime.

Dying to the law is accomplished by receiving the promise of the Spirit through faith [alone] (Gal 3:13-14; cf Rom 7:4).

You’ve described how it is accomplished but you have not explained what it means. My question is what does it meant to die to the law? The question is a what, not a how.

My friend, the statement made in the verse concerns the giving of the Spirit, and the duration of the Spirit in the giving—FOREVER.

If any tampering with the verse is going on, it’s on your part.

The promise of the guidance into all Truth by the Spirit was given to the Church. He gave it to his apostles. Not to every Tom, Dickens and Harry.

How are you defining “Church” in that statement?

I think you know my answer. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that Christ founded on Peter, the Catholic Church.

And I am presuming that you mean here the body of believers but you will be in error for the simple reason that if the Spirit was guiding the protestant churches then there would not be this splintering. Christ prayed that his followers be one and the protestant churches are anything but.

 

[ryanoneil]

I don’t need to predict the future, Ryan, I know the past. Justification is an event that is spoken of in the Gr aorist

tense—an action, completed in the past. I believed, and when I believed, I was justified, and that justification is sure; it’s the mingling of justification and sanctification that leads to the belief that justification can be lost; that belief comes about by inferences taken from scripture, that are processed in light of the synonymous understanding of justification and sanctification.
ryanoneil;4951876:

That doesn’t make sense to me. Are you saying that every person who ever “believed” is justified and is assured salvation?

What if you end up in this group?

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number. (1 John 2:19)

In light of Christ saying that we must “endure to the end to be saved,” can you explain how you know that you are saved?

What if you end up in this group? They are justified. right?

Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial. (Luke 8:13)

They believed, and when They believed, They were justified, and that justification was sure. Right?

 

[moondweller]

I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture and your understanding of a Greek “present participle” concerning a “continual habit of sin.” It only takes one mortal sin to become spiritually dead. Adam committed one deadly sin and lost eternal life for all of us and caused death and decay for all of us by this one sin. The bad angels committed one deadly sin and are barred from heaven forever. Why do you think it should be any different for us?

Does the Person and work of Christ mean nothing to you?Rom 5:16-17 "The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned; for on the one hand** the judgment {arose} from one {transgression}** resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification.

For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture and your understanding of a Greek “present participle” concerning a “continual habit of sin.”

You know, kid, that’s like standing outside at noon, and disagreeing with the sun that it’s shining. :whacky:

SHW:

It only takes one mortal sin to become spiritually dead. Adam committed one deadly sin and lost eternal life for all of us and caused death and decay for all of us by this one sin.

Yes he did.

SHW:

The bad angels committed one deadly sin and are barred from heaven forever.

God doesn’t save angels.

SHW:

Why do you think it should be any different for us?

I’m going to show you in a minute why you’re teaching falsely.

SHW:

Speaking of Greek grammar: Then you should have no problem understanding that Peter is the Rock and not Jesus, and it is also not Peter’s faith in Jesus that is the Rock, etc. in Matthew 16:18.

Depends upon which Church Father you’re reading.

SHW:

So why aren’t you in Jesus’ Church which He built upon Peter the Rock?

How do you know you’re in the true Church? Because you were born into it?

SHW:

Ezekiel 33:12-20 "Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live. 17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

It only takes one transgression (only one mortal sin) on one day to lose your righteousness and lose eternal life.You don’t understand the covenants, and their differences. I could teach you, but you’re not interested in listening to me, so, I’ll just say this: under the old covenant, the penalty for transgressing certain laws was physical death, or being "cut off from among his people."

That cannot mean a loss of salvation for the one whom God has justified, because, as scripture teaches us, those God justified, He also glorified, OK?

A case in point:Deuteronomy 32:48-51The Lord spoke to Moses that very same day, saying, "go up to this mountain of the Abarim, Mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab opposite Jericho, and look at the land of Canaan, which I’m giving to the sons of Israel for a possession.

THEN DIE ON THE MOUNTAIN…because YOU TRESPASSED [SINNNED ONCE] AGAINST Me…at the waters of Meribah-kadesh…because you did not treat Me as holy in the midst of the sons of Israel.From your teaching in Eze 33, you’re teaching that Moses lost his salvation.

That’s a false teaching. (A very grave matter.)

Way to go.

 

[Howie01]

.
.

.
.

 

[Howie01]

**Brethren **are brothers and sisters in Christ. Paul is addressing the Brethren in Galatians. Paul did not write epistles to unbelievers. He only wrote to the Churches that were already established by the Apostles and Disciples.

That doesn’t prove your point.

Paul is addressing the entire assembly, the visible church at Galatia.

The visible church is made up of both wheat, and tares (believers and unbelievers). Paul does not prefer one over the other, but he is exhorting all who hear the letter; therefore, Paul is addressing both saved people, and unsaved people in his epistles to the churches.

There’s only way one gets around that fact, IMO—he’s blind to the teaching of all of scripture.

 

[Howie01]

benedictus2:

The verse is very plain. Faith and works go together. It is not enough to just believe in Christ. That believe has to manifest itself in works: in following Christ and in doing the will of His Father.

If you are not convinced read the entire chapter.

No need; I’m absolutely convinced.

benedictus2:

Here I go again then with the same question:

If the consequences of the law pertain only to those who are under the law, and

Since you say that we are no longer under the law

Therefore, we can violate the law (commit idolatry, murder, adultery, thievery,etc) and there will be no consequences for us?

Consequences, yes (cf Heb 12:4-11). Loss of salvation, no.

A case in point: In various places, God refers to David as "a man after My own heart" (Acts 13:22 et. al.).

It’s a certainty that this man after God’s own heart, was justified in the sight of God, but, he committed adultery with Bathsheba, who was the wife of another man, and she conceived a child by this justified man, this man after God’s own heart.

In order to cover his sin, this man after God’s own heart devised a plan which ultimately led to his murdering the husband of Bathsheba.

In that, David resisted the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit, thereby grieving the Holy Spirit of God by whom he had been sealed forever (Jn 14:16; Eph 4:30).

Because of that, God subjected David to the severe discipline of rebellion, in his household. For the remainder of David’s life, and beyond, David’s house was plagued by violence.

Did God revoke David’s salvation, his eternal life?

benedictus2:

So once again. If you break all the commandments, are there any consequences for you. And this time no evasion please.

Answered above.

benedictus2:

You say okay to this statement when it contradicts your statement above?

Sorry, that wasn’t a clear answer; I’m acknowledging that I understand your position that not keeping the commandments results in a loss of eternal life.

benedictus2:

But he did. Everyone was saved by Christ. And yes, I can see the questions tick tick ticking in your head but I will wait until you post them.

My friend, if someone is sinless, they don’t need a savior.

(continued)

 

[Howie01]

(continued from 270)

.

benedictus2:

Because whenever I quote Christ you fire back with a quote from Paul that “seems” to disprove what Christ said. Notice the word “seems” because the contradiction is only in your interpretation.

There’s no contradiction between Paul and Christ; therefore, I can’t be pitting one against the other.

benedictus2:

Yes you are. Re-read what you have written and you will realize that you are.

My friend, you’re saying that I’m saying that the 10 commandments are useless.

I’ve never said that.

Perhaps it’s your faulty interpretation of what I said that’s confusing you?

benedictus2:

You’ve described how it is accomplished but you have not explained what it means. My question is what does it meant to die to the law? The question is a what, not a how.

In the beginning of Romans 7, which I cited, Paul explains with the analogy of marriage.

Let me give a more contemporary explanation.

If a man who has been sentenced to death by the State, dies of natural causes in his cell, prior to the time the state executes him, the sentence imposed by the state dies with him. The penalty of the law is removed.

So too, upon believing in Christ, one dies to the law so that he can be married to Christ, and the penalty for breaking the law in the past, and now into the future, is removed from the one believing (Rom 7:4), because Christ kept the law perfectly, and, on the cross, Christ paid with His life, the price of the sins for the ones who believe into Him. That’s why Paul confidently states at the beginning of the eighth chapter of Romans, "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus," in which statement, the careful listener hears the echo of Christ’s own words, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

Jesus and Paul are in complete agreement; there’s no pitting one against the other.

benedictus2:

The promise of the guidance into all Truth by the Spirit was given to the Church. He gave it to his apostles. Not to every Tom, Dickens and Harry.

OK, but that’s not the testimony of Scripture, but Tradition.

benedictus2:

I think you know my answer. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that Christ founded on Peter, the Catholic Church.

And I am presuming that you mean here the body of believers but you will be in error for the simple reason that if the Spirit was guiding the protestant churches then there would not be this splintering. Christ prayed that his followers be one and the protestant churches are anything but.

Well, we can test your consistency in adhering to the argument you present.

Within Catholicism is found “splintering” as you call it. You have the traditionalists “splintered” against the liberals, and the liberals “splintered” against the traditionalists, and both of those “splintered” against the “cafeterias,” and some are “splintered” against the SSPX, and the SSPX are “splintered” against those who are “splintered” against them, and the sedevcantists are “splintered” against some past popes, up to the present pope, saying they’re not valid popes, and the present pope is “splintered” against the sedevacantists, and on and on, and all under the umbrella of Roman Catholicism.

Therefore, according to your argument, the Holy Spirit can’t be leading any of us, because there’s "splintering in all of us."

 

[SHW]

Does the Person and work of Christ mean nothing to you?Rom 5:16-17 "The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned; for on the one hand** the judgment {arose} from one** {transgression} resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification.

For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

Moondweller,

I have no problem agreeing with those Scripture verses. I believe them. Jesus justifies us through Baptism as a free gift of grace which makes us righteous and gives us abundant graces. Jesus makes us right with God through Baptism. He has saved us. Original Sin is no longer on our souls and all personal sins on our souls have been washed away. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

However, we will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. How do we reign in life through Jesus Christ?

Ephesians 2:18 “For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.”

John 15:4 “Abide (Remain) in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides (remains) in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide (remain) in Me.”
**
John 15:6** “If anyone does not abide (remain) in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.”

We must remain attached to the Vine (Jesus) in order to reign in life through Him.

We must abide in Christ which means “remain in Christ” in order to reign in life through Him. If we do not abide (remain) in Christ (remain attached to the Vine) until our deaths, then we lose our justification and we do not inherit eternal life.

John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide (remain) in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide (remain) in His love.”

1 John 2:5-7 “But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides (remains) in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.”

1 John 2:28 “And now, little children, abide (remain) in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.”

1 John 3:24 “Now he who keeps His commandments abides (remains) in Him, and He in him.”

We abide (remain) in Him only if we keep His commandments.

1 John 4:16 “And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides (remains) in love abides (remains) in God, and God in him.”

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

2 John 1:9 “Whoever transgresses and does not abide (remain) in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides (remains) in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.”

1 John 3:6 “Whoever abides (remains) in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.”

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

John 6:56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides (remains) in Me, and I in him.”

1 John 3:4 “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.”

We must keep His commandments in order to abide (remain) in Him. If we sin, then we no longer abide in Him.

Matthew 24:11-13 “Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.”

We must abide in Christ (remain in Christ) until we die (endure to the end) in order to inherit eternal life.

Continued justification is conditional. It is dependent upon “faith working through love” (Galatians 5:6) because God accepts those who fear Him and work righteousness (Acts 10:34-36) so our continued justification is dependent on both faith and works.

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

We are judged by works on Judgment Day as proof of our faith. We are not judged by faith alone on Judgment Day.

Matthew 13:41-50 “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

1 John 3:4 “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.”

Matthew 7:22-23 “Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

Unless you abide (remain) in Christ until death (endure to the end), you will not inherit eternal life.

Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

Unless you abide (remain) in Christ until death (endure to the end), you will not inherit eternal life.

Pax,
SHW

However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy. "The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels. (Rev 3:4-5)

Jesus is explaining that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin. He also says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life. This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

 

[SHW]

That doesn’t prove your point.

Paul is addressing the entire assembly, the visible church at Galatia.

The visible church is made up of both wheat, and tares (believers and unbelievers). Paul does not prefer one over the other, but he is exhorting all who hear the letter; therefore, Paul is addressing both saved people, and unsaved people in his epistles to the churches.

There’s only way one gets around that fact, IMO—he’s blind to the teaching of all of scripture.

Paul calls them “brethren in Christ” but he personally does not know what the state of their souls are. However, it makes no difference; he is warning all his flock that “those who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” He does not tell them, “If you are already saved, then this does not apply to you.” He states emphatically, I warn you, as I have warned you before, that those who do such things as fornication, etc. will not inherit the kingdom of God. This is plain speaking and a very stern warning.

Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” RSV

As for Paul being blind to the teaching of all of Scripture; this would be an impossibility. For you to be blind to the teaching of all of Scripture, is fact.

You cannot throw out or disregard Scriptures which do not agree with your interpretation of other Scriptures. All of them are true. Since all of them are true, then figure out how they can all be true; fit them all together into one whole truth.

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

The only way that all of the Scriptures about salvation can be true is for us to be justified by faith first as a free gift of grace which gives us hope for eternal life. We realize this hope at the end of our lives because we faithfully continued in that grace (we abided/remained in Christ) by keeping His commandments and doing good works. Because we did this, we are approved, and we then inherit eternal life.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

We don’t love God unless we obey His commandments. We don’t inherit eternal life unless we love God by keeping/obeying His commandments.

1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

Jesus promises to save those who love Him. Unless you obey His commandments, you do not love Him. He will not give you the crown of eternal life unless you love Him and are still loving Him by keeping His commandments until you die.

Jesus justifies us by faith as a free gift of grace through Baptism. This justification gives us hope of inheriting eternal life. We realize this hope of inheriting eternal life (we bring this hope of inheriting eternal life to fruition/fulfillment) by continually abiding/remaining in Him until death. After our deaths, we are judged. When Jesus judges our works; if we are found worthy of eternal life based on our works as proof of our faith, then Jesus gives us the crown of eternal life.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy. "The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels. (Rev 3:4-5)

Jesus is explaining that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin. He also says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life. This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

Thanks for the additional (name removed by moderator)ut. SHW

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

Paul calls them “brethren in Christ” but he personally does not know what the state of their souls are. However, it makes no difference; he is warning all his flock that “those who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God.” He does not tell them, “If you are already saved, then this does not apply to you.” He states emphatically, I warn you, as I have warned you before, that those who do such things as fornication, etc. will not inherit the kingdom of God. This is plain speaking and a very stern warning.

Thank you! It’s always gratifying to lead someone to a truth of Scripture. (Even if they don’t realize what you’ve done for them.)

SHW:

As for Paul being blind to the teaching of all of Scripture; this would be an impossibility. For you to be blind to the teaching of all of Scripture, is fact.

In your blindness to me, you haven’t realized that I was not referring to Paul, but to you. Context.

SHW:

You cannot throw out or disregard Scriptures which do not agree with your interpretation of other Scriptures. All of them are true. Since all of them are true, then figure out how they can all be true; fit them all together into one whole truth.

Here’s another learning opportunity for you.

Memorize what you’ve just said, go to a mirror, look yourself in the eye in that mirror, and repeat your words over, and over, and over.

SHW:

The only way that all of the Scriptures about salvation can be true is for us to be justified by faith first as a free gift of grace which gives us hope for eternal life. We realize this hope at the end of our lives because we faithfully continued in that grace (we abided/remained in Christ) by keeping His commandments and doing good works. Because we did this, we are approved, and we then inherit eternal life.

My friend, many people are not justified, but that doesn’t mean that all of the Scriptures about salvation are not true.

SHW:

We don’t love God unless we obey His commandments. We don’t inherit eternal life unless we love God by keeping/obeying His commandments.

Jesus promises to save those who love Him. Unless you obey His commandments, you do not love Him. He will not give you the crown of eternal life unless you love Him and are still loving Him by keeping His commandments until you die.

That’s your tradition speaking. Scripture states that salvation, or justification, is not based upon faithfulness to Christ, but upon faith that the righteousness of God is imputed to you on the basis of Christ’s sacrifice (cf Rom 4:5-9; 2 Cor 5:21).

SHW:

Jesus justifies us by faith as a free gift of grace through Baptism.

That’s your Tradition again—if justification is by baptism, then all of the OT saints perished. Salvation has eternally been by grace, through faith (Eph 2:8).

SHW:

This justification gives us hope of inheriting eternal life.

Justification IS eternal life, given on the basis of faith (Jn 5:24).

SHW:

We realize this hope of inheriting eternal life (we bring this hope of inheriting eternal life to fruition/fulfillment) by continually abiding/remaining in Him until death. After our deaths, we are judged. When Jesus judges our works; if we are found worthy of eternal life based on our works as proof of our faith, then Jesus gives us the crown of eternal life.

More Tradition.

 

[Howie01]

ryanoneil:

That doesn’t make sense to me. Are you saying that every person who ever “believed” is justified and is assured salvation?

No. Only those who believe to life.

ryanoneil:

What if you end up in this group?

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number. (1 John 2:19)

In light of Christ saying that we must “endure to the end to be saved,” can you explain how you know that you are saved?

Perseverance is part and parcel of salvation (cf Jn 10:27-28; Rom 8:29-30, 1 Pet 1:3-9).

ryanoneil:

What if you end up in this group? They are justified. right?

Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial. (Luke 8:13)

They believed, and when They believed, They were justified, and that justification was sure. Right?

Ryan, I can argue only the last one was justified, or, I can argue all but the first one were justified.

Which argument would you prefer?

 

[SHW]

Thank you! It’s always gratifying to lead someone to a truth of Scripture. (Even if they don’t realize what you’ve done for them.)

He calls them brethren because he assumes that they are abiding in Christ. We are not truly “Brethren” unless we are actually abiding in Christ by obeying His commandments (doing the will of His Father).

Matthew 12:50 “For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

In your blindness to me, you haven’t realized that I was not referring to Paul, but to you. Context.

I was being facetious. Did you not see my wink?

My friend, many people are not justified, but that doesn’t mean that all of the Scriptures about salvation are not true.

All Scriptures regarding salvation are true including those Scriptures which explain that those who sin after their initial justification are no longer justified.

That’s your tradition speaking. Scripture states that salvation, or justification, is not based upon faithfulness to Christ, but upon faith that the righteousness of God is imputed to you on the basis of Christ’s sacrifice (cf Rom 4:5-9; 2 Cor 5:21).

Yes, this is my Tradition speaking and it matches Scripture. It is your misinterpretation of Scripture that is the problem.

That’s your Tradition again—if justification is by baptism, then all of the OT saints perished. Salvation has eternally been by grace, through faith (Eph 2:8).

We are under different covenants. They were not commanded to be baptized in order to be justified but we are commanded to be baptized in order to wash away our sins so that we can be justified. (Acts 22:16, 1 Corinthians 6:11) We are born again through/by Baptism and it regenerates our souls (gives them spiritual rebirth) to a living hope for eternal life.(Titus 3:4-7, Mark 16:16, Acts 8:12-13)

Acts 10:48 “And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.”

Justification IS eternal life, given on the basis of faith (Jn 5:24).

Initial justification gives us hope of eternal life. It does not actually result in eternal life until we have endured to the end of our lives abiding (remaining) in Christ. Eternal life is conditional on whether we obey Jesus’ commandments (or not) after our initial justification which we received as a free gift of grace by faith through Baptism.

Matthew 19:16 “Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 "So He (Jesus) said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
**
Which ones?**

"18 Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions."

Revelation 22:14 “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.”

We have the right to enter through the gates into heaven after we have kept God’s commandments and given aid to the poor.

More tradition.

2 Timothy 2:15 “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

I am “rightly dividing the word of truth” which does agree with both Tradition and Scripture.

1 Corinthians 11:2 “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

2 Thessalonians 3:6 “But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.”

We realize this hope of inheriting eternal life (we bring this hope of inheriting eternal life to fruition/fulfillment) by continually abiding/remaining in Him until death. After our deaths, we are judged. When Jesus judges our works; if we are found worthy of eternal life based on our works as proof of our faith, then Jesus gives us the crown of eternal life.We realize this hope of inheriting eternal life (we bring this hope of inheriting eternal life to fruition/fulfillment) by continually abiding/remaining in Him until death. After our deaths, we are judged. When Jesus judges our works; if we are found worthy of eternal life based on our works as proof of our faith, then Jesus gives us the crown of eternal life.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Howie01]

Initial justification gives us hope of eternal life. It does not actually result in eternal life until we have endured to the end of our lives abiding (remaining) in Christ. Eternal life is conditional on whether we obey Jesus’ commandments (or not) after our initial justification which we received as a free gift of grace by faith through Baptism.

Matthew 19:16 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

17 "So He (Jesus) said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. **But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Which ones?**

"18 Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions."

My friend, you’re still proof-texting, and therefore, not closely examining the text, and, what about the rest of the passage, the rest of the context?

Look at the list of the commandments in v18. In that list are 5 out of the 6 commandments of the second table of the Decalogue. All of them deal with human relationships. The last commandment is from Lev 19:18, ”You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Clearly the man didn’t keep that commandment, as he was sorrowful at having to sell what he had to give to the poor. IOW, he wasn’t loving his neighbor as himself. He wasn’t sorrowful over keeping all of his wealth for himself, that was a good thing for him, but he was sorrowful because he was told, in order to obtain eternal life, he must sell all of his wealth, and give it to the poor, and that’s not to be a sorrowful task, but a task done with the same love one has for himself (v 18). Therefore, he didn’t keep that commandment (remember earlier in Matthew, ch 5, the standard for law-keeping is perfection 5:48, and no one can love with the perfection of God), he lied when he said he kept the commandments Jesus listed.

Continue in the context. In v24, Jesus says, ““Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

How do the disciples respond? v25:**When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?”**Why were they astonished?

Because Jesus’ illustration is telling them that salvation by human effort is impossible. The Jews believed that wealth was a great blessing by God on the one who possessed the wealth. Wealth indicated great favor in God’s sight, and the Jews believed a man could purchase salvation by alms-giving (as recorded in the Talmud). So the rich had more money to give, and so could make more sacrifices and offerings, thus assuring their salvation.

The disciples’ understood what Jesus meant (v25)—Man, who then can be saved, when even the rich cannot buy salvation?

Salvation cannot be purchased, period. As this passage illustrates, salvation has always been by grace, through faith, and not by merit of any kind (cf Eph 2:8; Rom 4:2-5).