What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[SHW]

eis•ege•sis \ˌī-sə-ˈjē-səs, ˈī-sə-ˌ\ noun
plural eis•ege•ses -ˌsēz\
[Greek *eis

into (akin to Greek en in) + English exegesis — more at IN]
(1892)
: the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one’s own ideas — compare EXEGESIS

I’m not “reading” into it personally. I am just repeating what I have learned. I have been “taught” by the Church.

Colossians 2:6-8 "As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it[a] with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

I have been “taught” by the Church which is built upon Peter, the Rock, and not by the “traditions” of those “men” who have no legitimate “authority” given them and who protest against Jesus’ Church and interpret Scripture for themselves.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

Titus 1:7-10 “For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, 8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict. 10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,”

2 Peter 3:15-17 "Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

2 Peter 1:20 “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation”

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

The men moved by the Holy Spirit are the men who have had their office handed down to them by the men to whom the Holy Spirit descended at Pentacost. The “private interpretation” is that of all those who do not follow the Church ordained by Jesus, the Catholic Church.

Amen!!!

Pax,
SHW

 

[benedictus2]

For the fourth time, my use of Jn 14:16 is to demonstrate, along with Eph 1:3, and 4:30, that the sealing of the Spirit is forever.

And for the fourth time I am trying to say that the sealing of the spirit you are talking about does not pertain to individuals but to his Church! And that this Chapter in John is not about individual sealing of the Holy Spirit but a promise of the Paraclete to guide the Church. I am trying to show you that your interpretation of John 14:16 is not exactly correct. For the 4th time you have missed that.

That statement is similar to an earlier statement you made, to which I responded:

Well, we can test your consistency in adhering to the argument you present.

Within Catholicism is found “splintering” as you call it. You have the traditionalists “splintered” against the liberals, and the liberals “splintered” against the traditionalists, and both of those “splintered” against the “cafeterias,” and some are “splintered” against the SSPX, and the SSPX are “splintered” against those who are “splintered” against them, and the sedevcantists are “splintered” against some past popes, up to the present pope, saying they’re not valid popes, and the present pope is “splintered” against the sedevacantists, and on and on, and all under the umbrella of Roman Catholicism.
Who is it you said divides, benedictus2?

Ha! Howie, I am consistent. You see, there is only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The liberals, the cafeteria catholics, the sspx are not the Catholic Church. They can dissent as much as they like but that is all they can do. They are stubborn and prideful members of the Church but they are not the Church. So yes, the Holy Spirit continues to guide the Church.

Totally different in your case where you actually have Lutherans, Anglicans, this and that Evangelicals, Assembly of God, etc, etc,. etc. and they are all different churches.

Church doctrine has always held steadfast to Christ’s teaching. Not so Protestant doctrine. They even teach doctine that is an OUTRIGHT contradiction of the Gospels.

This is probably why, I see you all, quoting Paul all the time but you rarely quote from the Gospels.

Only the devil causes divisions. The Holy Spirit always unites.

Like it or not, God’s predestining some to the kingdom necessitates His predestining others elsewhere, no matter how you spin it.

Nope it is not spin. God does not pre-destine to hell. Only the evil God in your head (which is not Christ at all) does that.

It is worrying that you do not have a problem following such an evil God. Which is not the Father that Christ came to reveal.

For God so loved the world that He gave us His only Son.

But that probably does not mean anything to you.

And the only reason you come up with such a God is because of a botched up theology.

You do not have a complete understanding of free will and grace and the interplay between these two.

ISTM that you’re deliberately trying to be wrong; are you?

In attempting to place Calvinists upon the horns of a dilemma, you seat yourself right next to them. Both you and they, believe in a God who has it within His power to persuade all men to believe the Gospel, thereby saving each and every one.

But, He doesn’t.

Free will man. Free-will. Understand that and you will come closer to the truth about the how of salvation.

But then you are probably one of those who deny that we have free-will.

That’s one of the most distorted views of God a person can hold, IMO.

HEAR YE! HEAR YE! Howie has declared that the God we read about in the Bible is NOT A GOD OF LOVE.

I want to make it plain that your post is in reply to this:” The God of the Bible is a God of love. “

I think you better stop calling yourself a Christian for you obviously do not believe in John 3:16.

 

[SHW]

Yes we are. And we will be until the end of the age when the King returns to set up His Millennial rule on earth. And then no longer will Jerusalem be “trampled under foot by the Gentiles” (Lk. 21:24).Rom. 9:27 states nothing about the remnant of Israel coming into the church. It, in fact, states nothing about the church, but Israel (Jacob). Paul’s speaking of the time when the New Covenant will be established with national Israel. For now, during this church age, there’s the “mystery” of the “partial hardening” that has happened to (national) ISRAEL until “the fullness of the Gentiles has come in”, i.e., into the church. Not the remnant of Israel - you’ve got it backward. A remnant of Jewish believers in the church is a given (Rom. 11:5).

Howdy Moondweller,

Jesus has a New Covenant and so the Old Covenant is obsolete (no longer in force), (Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 12:22-24) but He does not forget His Father’s promises prophesied through Isaiah.

Romans 9:27 “And Isaias crieth out concerning Israel: If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.”

Because of the “collective” Jews disobedience and rejection of the Messiah, only a small number of “individual” children of Israel shall be converted and saved before the end of time.

Romans 11:1-5 “I say then: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people, which he foreknew. Know you not what the scripture saith of Elias; how he calleth on God against Israel? 3 Lord, they have slain thy prophets, they have dug down thy altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the divine answer to him? I have left me seven thousand men, that have not bowed their knees to Baal. 5 Even so then at this present time also, there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace.” Scripture quotations are from the Douay-Rheims Bible

God has not cast away all of His Jewish people (Israelites) in order to save the Gentiles. Jesus saved a remnant of the Israelites at the time of His First Coming and He will save a remnant of them shortly before the end of time (before He returns at His Second Coming). Most of the Jews rejected the Messiah 2000 years ago, but God is still faithful. He had promised through Elias’ prophecy that He would save a remnant of them and Paul is one of these remnant. The sacking and burning and destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 A.D. was the judgment against the Jews “collectively” for their rejection of His Son. Paul states that God has not cast away His people and that a remnant of Israel will also be saved later on, and this will fulfill Luke 21:24 and Romans 11 .

However, each “individual” Jew, just as any other person from the beginning of time until the end of time, is still judged according to his own individual works on Judgment Day.

Revelation 20:11-13 “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.” NKJV

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

So why do you Catholics keep insisting you’re still under law (with its Decalogue) and the power of sin?

We are under the laws of the New Covenant: the Church teaches these laws and they include the Ten Commandments with Sunday Worship Day substituted for the Sabbath Worship Day.

Jesus Himself states some of the commandments of His gospel:

Matthew 19:16-19 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Why don’t you believe Jesus? He tells him (and us) which commandments he (we) must obey if he (we) want(s) to enter eternal life.

Your “misinterpretation” of certain Scriptures in order to fit your own doctrine of “Eternal Security” is not backed up by other Scriptures.

Hebrews 3:6 “but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Revelation 3:11 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.”

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

After our initial justification as a free gift of grace through faith, our final justification depends on whether we obey the gospel of Jesus or not.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8** in flaming fire taking vengeance** on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord”

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

But the New Covenant itself will yet be established with national Israel at Christ’s second Advent (read Eze. 31:31-34; 32:36-44). He came into this world born a Jew, born the rightful heir to the Davidic throne based on the unconditional covenant God made with David… The Messianic Kingdom is His rightful inheritance. And this Messianic Kingdom is, and always was, earthly. …There is no such thing as a “heavenly messianic kingdom.” Heaven always belonged to the Son. But the future, Messianic Kingdom is rightfully His through birth (incarnation). The prophecies speak of the Son of David ruling over the whole world from His father David’s throne in Jerusalem. It’s an earthly kingdom with an earthly throne.

I repeat: The Church is the heavenly Jerusalem.

Hebrews 12:14-29 "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.

18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire."

The Church is the heavenly Mount Zion where God speaks to His people. The Church is the heavenly Jerusalem. We Catholics have come to this spiritual Mount Zion and to the heavenly Jerusalem through the Church and its Holy Sacrifice of the Mass where we eat His Flesh and drink His Blood. An innumerable company of angels adore Jesus in the Blessed Holy Eucharist in our Catholic Churches just as we Catholics do also as we receive Him in Holy Communion and participate in the Mass.

Jesus will not come down to earth to rule David’s kingdom in the state of Israel for a literal thousand years. This teaching is a fable.

2 Peter 1:16-17-2 Peter 2:1-3 "For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” 1 “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.”

Jesus’ messianic kingdom is ruled from His throne in heaven.

Psalm 103:19 “The LORD has established His throne in heaven, And His kingdom rules over all.”

Zechariah 6:13 "Yes, He shall build the temple of the LORD. He shall bear the glory, And shall sit and rule on His throne; So He shall be a priest on His throne, And the counsel of peace shall be between them both.”’

Jesus joins both His kingship and His priesthood in the heavenly Jerusalem (Church/temple) and He rules forever on His throne in heaven.

Acts 7:49-51 " Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. What house will you build for Me? says the LORD, Or what is the place of My rest? 50 Has My hand not made all these things?’

Pax,
SHW

 

[Christian7801]

You can discern if your church is the true Church of Christ by reading the Bible with spiritual eyes.

Seven Marks of the True Church of Christ

1. Where Peter is, there is the Church. Then we can conclude the “Church” is only in heaven, since that is where Peter is.

Matthew 16:18-19 “Thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven”.
**
2. Where there are bishops under the pope, there is the Church.**
Did not see a reference to Pope there; are you adding to Scripture?
Acts 20:28 “Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”
**
3. Where there are local priests under a bishop, there is the Church.**
Did not see the Greek for priest there either; but rather the same word for Bishop; therefore you are adding to Scripture. The Greek word for priest is “Hierourgeo”; completely different than “Presbuteros”, which is used in the passage cited above.
Titus 1:5 "For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee: "

1 Timothy 4:14 “Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.”
**
4. Where you can confess your sins to a priest of God, there is the Church.**

John 20:23 “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” **Heaven is in agreement with those that give the message of the gospel and those who accept versus those who reject will determine if the sins are forgiven or not; by God alone.
**
5. Where the bread and wine is changed into body and blood of Christ on the altar, there is the Church. There is no altar in the NT; it was done away with because of the perfect sacrafice of Christ to take away the sins from “whosoever will”. Furthermore; Christ is at the right hand of God until he returns and that is easlily proven from Hebrews, Colossians, Romans. Acts…if Christ is not there until His enemies are made His footstool, then the Bible is not true.

John 6:51-56 " I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 52 If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. 53 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed "
** ** Verse 63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.” “THE WORDS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU ARE SPIRIT” - Jesus clarifies the manner and the context in which He spoke for any reader that might the same mistake the literal crowd left in unbelief.****
6. Where Christians shall call the Virgin Mother of Christ blessed, there is the Church.
"Most blessed of women is Jael, The wife of Heber the Kenite; (Judges 5:24) She is the MOST blessesd of women, above Mary.
Luke 1:48 " Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."
** Blessed among women, not above women. Also,
7. Where the saints offer the incense of our prayers to God, there is the Church.**
This is in heaven and not on earth; however this may return during the millennial reign…I’m not real clear on that aspect.
Apocalypse (Revelation) 8:3 “And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God.”

Scriptures are taken from Douay-Rheims Bible (DRBrg) and other content is taken from catholicrevelations.org/

How does your Church measure up? Do you abide in the true Church of Christ, the Catholic Church? Nothing can measure to that! Yes!

Ephesians 4:5 “One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

Pax,
SHW

Wow! You win the prize for the best imposition on the text of Scripture, IMO. I would suggest you read the Bible and get a Greek expository dictionary; this one is an easy to use and great study tool and inexpensive.
christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=5387X&netp_id=131110&event=ETS

If you need any help; please feel free to ask; I will be happy to assist you in your study.

 

[moondweller]

Jesus only returns once more, not twice.

It’s true, He’ll return only once to this earth. But where does His church meet Him? You quoted it yourself:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

“To meet the Lord in the air.” His foot does not set down on this earth at that time. But this catching up to meet Him in the air fulfills what Jesus promised His church 2000 years ago:John 14:1-3 “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, {there} you may be also.”

He will be ready to judge the living and the dead.

Looks to me that in Matt. 25:31-46 He’s just dealing with the living. Notice that at that time He’s sitting on His glorious throne (on earth) and at that time He separates His sheep from the goats (believers from unbelievers). His sheep enter His earthly kingdom, the goats do not. There’s no general resurrection of the dead happening at that time.

Those who meet Him in the air will always be with the Lord from that moment on. There is no way that He will then go back to earth and rule in Jerusalem in Israel as an earthly king.

1 Thessalonians 4:13

“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15** For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep**. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

Only “one” Second Coming is possible. When the trumpet is blown, it signals the gathering of the sheep and the goats, both dead and alive, for the General Judgment. The dead in Christ will arise first. Then those persons who are still living at the sound of the Last Trumpet and those dead who rise first will meet Jesus and the angels in the air. The dead in Christ rise before

we meet Jesus in the air.

You’re mixing passages and events. 1 Thess. 4:13-15 states nothing about He separating His sheep from the goats at that time. Just the resurrection of those who have fallen asleep (died) in Christ and those who are alive at that time. Both groups make up the church Christ is presently building and both groups, together, will be caught up and meet Him in the air. The passage is about the rapture of Christ’s church and states nothing about Christ returning to earth at that time.

The separating of His sheep from the goats is an entirely separate event. It happens when He is on earth and He’s sitting on His glorious throne (Matt. 25:31). No resurrection occurs at that time or catching up into the air, only the separating of His sheep from the goats. The sheep enter the King’s earthly kingdom and the goats are cast off.

There is no pre-tribulation rapture of the Church from earth before the end of the world so that Jesus can rule an earthly Jewish kingdom. Instead, Jesus will rule over both heaven and earth from His throne in heaven.

That’s not what Scripture says. Presently Jesus shares His Father’s throne in heaven functioning there as the believer’s High Priest before the Father. It states nothing about Him reigning there as King. Where is Jesus ever called “King of the church?”

Jesus does not consider His Father’s throne in heaven His throne, but still anticipates the day when He will return to this earth and sit upon His rightful throne as the Son of David:Rev 3:21-21 "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’"The church Christ is now building, and will be caught up with Him in the air, will eventually return with Him to reign with Him on earth during His Millennial rule.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (die), but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

Yes. This passage is addressed to the church He’s presently building while in heaven. It is to be understood in conjunction with the 1 Thess 4:13-18 passage.

The Last Trumpet sounds for the Judgment of Mankind.

The passage is addressed to His church not to all mankind. You err by mixing passages and events.

But then that’s to be understood since in the Scriptures you also mix law and works with grace and faith. At least you’re consistent - but not in a good way.

 

[ryanoneil]

No Ryan it’s you who ignore the context. The writer of Hebrews is comparing the many sacrifices done in the “copy” of the true heavenly tabernacle, here on earth, with the ONCE FOR ALL blood sacrifice of the Son while here on earth. After His bodily resurrection He ascended into heaven and entered the true tabernacle, not through the blood of goats and calves (note the comparison),"…but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12).Where was this sacrifice done? Where was His blood offered in that He obtained eternal redemption? Here on earth 2000 years ago. There’s no sacrifices going on in heaven or on earth for man’s redemption. Two thousand years ago Christ said "it is finished.

Believe whatever you want. Levitical priests offered the blood of bulls and goats in the EARTHLY sanctuary (Lev 14:14-15). In a similair but superior way, Christ offers his body (Heb 10:10) and blood (9:12-14), as an atonement sacrifice in the sanctuary of heaven (Heb 9:24). Everyone knows that Christ’s sacrifice took place on earth and no one is saying that Chirst is being sacrificed after that. But, I don’t understand why you are desperately trying to keep His once for all sacrifice (that happened here) from being offered in heaven.

My translation of Hebrews 9:12 says He entered the sanctuary WITH His blood. Your’s says THROUGH His blood. Either way, you were the one going on how bodies can’t be alive and dead and the same time and how they can’t be in two places at one time. We both know that Christ entered heaven and the true tabernacle after His bodily resurrection, but 9:12 say He entered WITH/THROUGH His blood.

It was necessary for the heavenly things themselves to be purified by a better sacrifice (9:23), but how is that possible if His blood was left on earth? It can’t be in two places at once after all. And it is not only a spiritual thing. The matter of fact, which you refuse to admit, is Christ sacrifice did not stay on earth. Jesus sacrifice followed Him to heaven where it was offered to the Father. Because it is offered in heaven does not mean that it is happening again or is ongoing. It happened once but it is offered eternally, which is why Jesus appears as High Priest wearing an ankle-length robe, with a gold sash around his chest (Rev 1:13) AND a standing Lamb that seemed to have been slain (Rev 5:6)

The main point of what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle that the Lord, not man, set up. Now every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus the necessity for this one also to have something to offer. (Heb 8:1-3)

 

[Howie01]

benedictus2:

And for the fourth time I am trying to say that the sealing of the spirit you are talking about does not pertain to individuals but to his Church! And that this Chapter in John is not about individual sealing of the Holy Spirit but a promise of the Paraclete to guide the Church. I am trying to show you that your interpretation of John 14:16 is not exactly correct. For the 4th time you have missed that.

Maybe you don’t understand the Holy Spirit and the Paraclete are the same person, I don’t know, but, the HS is given to each believing member of the body of Christ—the Church, and the Paraclete is given forever, thus the language of guarantee—the sealing of the Spirit.

benedictus2:

Ha! Howie, I am consistent. You see, there is only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The liberals, the cafeteria catholics, the sspx are not the Catholic Church. They can dissent as much as they like but that is all they can do. They are stubborn and prideful members of the Church but they are not the Church. So yes, the Holy Spirit continues to guide the Church.

You are inconsistent benedictus2, as I knew you would be when I framed your argument using your terms. Inconsistency and double standard are the hallmarks of Catholics, and their apologetics, IMO.

benedictus2:

Church doctrine has always held steadfast to Christ’s teaching. Not so Protestant doctrine. They even teach doctine that is an OUTRIGHT contradiction of the Gospels.

Not so, but I understand your need to cling to your misconception.

Reformed doctrine is historically consistent.

benedictus2:

This is probably why, I see you all, quoting Paul all the time but you rarely quote from the Gospels.

I often quote Christ’s sayings, it’s just that you’re not around to hear that, or to read that.

But, in Jn 14 it’s said of the Spirit that He lead the apostles into all truth. That’s because Christ didn’t reveal everything to them at the time He was present with them. So the Spirit’s leading into all truth was with respect to the fuller understanding of the Gospel, and the recalling of that which the Spirit wanted recalled for the writing of the NT.

benedictus2:

Nope it is not spin. God does not pre-destine to hell. Only the evil God in your head (which is not Christ at all) does that.

What you’re doing is spinning. As I said, like it or not, God’s predestining some to the kingdom necessitates His predestining others elsewhere, no matter how you spin it.

benedictus2:

It is worrying that you do not have a problem following such an evil God. Which is not the Father that Christ came to reveal.

I don’t follow an evil God, that’s the image you’ve constructed. The difference between you and me with respect to this is, I’ve studied theology proper, you haven’t.
beneductus2:

For God so loved the world that He gave us His only Son.

The verse says much more than that, though I understand your not wanting to deal with the rest at this time.

benedictus2:

But that probably does not mean anything to you.

Don’t be silly.

benedictus2:

And the only reason you come up with such a God is because of a botched up theology.

Dear, you’re the one who’s been referring to God as “evil” in this conversation. I don’t use that word in connection with God, so you keep beating that strawman benedictus2, beat him good.

benedictus2:

You do not have a complete understanding of free will and grace and the interplay between these two.

How would you know? We haven’t discussed a word concerning free will, as I recall. Are you going to erect another strawman?

benedictus2:

Free will man. Free-will. Understand that and you will come closer to the truth about the how of salvation.

Why don’t you explain free will to me?

 

[ryanoneil]

Excellent post Ryan! Your explanation was crystal clear. You may have already mentioned that the Royal Prophet says in Psalm 109 in the Vulgate or Psalm 110 in modern versions:

Thank you. I haven’t mentioned this, so thank you.

Our Blessed Savior Himself quoted this Psalm to the Pharisees, indicating it was about Himself. Even Protestants agree that Jesus is our High Priest. And how can a High Priest be a Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek? By offering Daily, Everywhere, by the agency of our ordained priest, the bread and wine (prefigured by Melchizedek) which is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, which was offered once in the bloody Aaronic Order and then combined and transfigured into the Order of Melchizedek by his Command at the Last Supper, to DO this as the everlasting sacrifice of the New Covenant.

That is absolutely right. Psalm 110 is also reference in (Heb 1:3)

who is the refulgence of his glory, the very imprint of his being, and who sustains all things by his mighty word. When he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

and is cited explicitly in (Heb 1:13).

**But to which of the angels has he ever said: “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool”? **

 

[moondweller]

Believe whatever you want. Levitical priests offered the blood of bulls and goats in the EARTHLY sanctuary (Lev 14:14-15). In a similair but superior way, Christ offers his body (Heb 10:10) and blood (9:12-14), as an atonement sacrifice in the sanctuary of heaven (Heb 9:24). Everyone knows that Christ’s sacrifice took place on earth and no one is saying that Chirst is being sacrificed after that. But, I don’t understand why you are desperately trying to keep His once for all sacrifice (that happened here) from being offered in heaven.

You said it yourself: “once for all sacrifice (that happened here).” It’s you who say it and then deny it. If it happened “once for all” here, it isn’t happening again there, or anywhere. That’s what “once for all” means. And by it He “obtained (past tense) eternal redemption” for all who believe in Him.

Keep in mind, He rose in the same body in which He died - but glorified, never to be subject to death again. For this reason He’s said to be the “first fruits” of those who rise out from among the dead. A body can be in only one place at one time. Nor can a body be simultaneously in a humble state and a glorified state. Our High Priest in heaven is the Man Christ Jesus, glorified.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

You said it yourself: “once for all sacrifice (that happened here).” It’s you who say it and then deny it. If it happened “once for all” here, it isn’t happening again there, or anywhere. That’s what “once for all” means. And by it He “obtained (past tense) eternal redemption” for all who believe in Him.

Keep in mind, He rose in the same body in which He died - but glorified, never to be subject to death again. For this reason He’s said to be the “first fruits” of those who rise out from among the dead. A body can be in only one place at one time. Nor can a body be simultaneously in a humble state and a glorified state. Our High Priest in heaven is the Man Christ Jesus, glorified.

You are right to certain extent. However Jesus instituted A NEW SACRIFICE by restoring the Order of Melchizedek. Jesus died on the cross in the bloody sacrifice in the old Order of Aaron, as prefigured by the Paschal lamb. But at the same time he wanted HIS CHURCH to continue to have a Sacrifice, and moreover A PERFECT ONE to offer forever, everywhere on earth to the Father in Heaven, which is why he restored the Order of Melchizedek, as the High Priest Forever, and as prophesied in Malachai 1:10-12. and Psalm 110. The old Aaronic order was to be taken away from the Jews, after the Final Perfect Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. This sacrifice, by the DIVINE INSTITUTION OF JESUS at the Last Supper, made it possible for ALL OF US to be there at Calvary under his Cross, although we are in distant places and times. Only God can do this work, and through the ordained priesthood, continues to present Himself being the High Priest and the Sacrificial Victim, although in an unbloody manner through the Order of Melchizedek in the Bread and Wine, which is the Body and Blood of Our Lord.

Jesus is not Dying over and over, He has instituted a NEW Sacrifice under the old Priestly Order of Melchizedek. This offering of bread and wine is HOW, THROUGH THE WORK OF GOD, but by the agency of the ordained priest, we (as a Royal Priesthood) unite ourselves to the Lord in his Sacrifice on Calvary 2000 yrs. ago. It can not be stressed too much, that this is the work of God, ordained by God, as a PERFECT sacrifice to Our Father in Heaven, unlike the imperfect shadow sacrifice offered in the old Aaronic Order, which was permanently dissolved along with the Levitical Priesthood.

So you are right when you say “Our High Priest in heaven is the Man Christ Jesus, glorified.” and it is also this Glorified Jesus, Our High Priest, beneath the accidents of the Bread and Wine on the Catholic Altars around the world. His Glorified Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, is also present with us here on earth in a REAL PRESENCE that can only occur through HIS new institution of the Order of Melchizedek.

Remember what Jesus said, He did not come to abolish the old Law, but to Fulfill it. The Old Levitical Priesthood and bloody Aaronic sacrifice was an imperfect shadow and prefigurement of what was to come, until The Son of God came to earth, and perfected it. Why else would God have INSTITUTED THE FIRST PRIESTHOOD OF Aaron? Not because it was pleasing to God, in itself, but because if was a Holy SIGN of what was to come in the LAST AGE. The one we live in now!

 

[ryanoneil]

You said it yourself: “once for all sacrifice (that happened here).” It’s you who say it and then deny it. If it happened “once for all” here, it isn’t happening again there, or anywhere. That’s what “once for all” means. And by it He “obtained (past tense) eternal redemption” for all who believe in Him.

I am not denying anything. You are forcing your narrow definition on me “again”. Once for all means unrepetable. What you are not realizing is that Christ took that sacrifice with Him to heaven after His resurrection. These verses make sense no other way.

Keep in mind, He rose in the same body in which He died - but glorified, never to be subject to death again. For this reason He’s said to be the “first fruits” of those who rise out from among the dead. A body can be in only one place at one time. Nor can a body be simultaneously in a humble state and a glorified state. Our High Priest in heaven is the Man Christ Jesus, glorified.

I don’t know why you keep repeating this. I agree with you. Or are you saying it is the risen blood of Jesus that obtained eternal life?

he entered once for all into the sanctuary, not with the blood of goats and calves but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. (Heb 9:12)

You can’t have it both ways. Jesus humble blood was only ever on earth, right?

**Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified by these rites, but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these. (Heb 9:23) **

 

[SHW]

Wow! You win the prize for the best imposition on the text of Scripture, IMO. I would suggest you read the Bible and get a Greek expository dictionary; this one is an easy to use and great study tool and inexpensive.
christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=5387X&netp_id=131110&event=ETS

If you need any help; please feel free to ask; I will be happy to assist you in your study.

Hi,

Thank you for your kind offer but we will have to agree to disagree about our thinking on these things.

Then we can conclude the “Church” is only in heaven, since that is where Peter is.

The chair (seat) of Peter is an office or stewardship just as Moses’ chair and it is passed down through succession.

Matthew 23:1-3 “Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat (chair). 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.”

Jesus states their authority but tells them to not copy what they personally do because they are hypocrites and do not practice what they preach.

Did not see a reference to Pope there; are you adding to Scripture?

No, Peter was the first Pope, the “keeper of the keys of the kingdom” which is a stewardship position. When he dies, another is appointed in his place. The head bishop is now fondly called “pope” which is Latin for “Papa” or “Father” as in “spiritual father.”

Matthew 16:18-19 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And** I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven**, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

1 Corinthians 4:15 “For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”

1 Thessalonians 2:10-12 “You are witnesses, and God also, how devoutly and justly and blamelessly we behaved ourselves among you who believe; 11 as you know how we exhorted, and comforted, and charged every one of you, as a father does his own children, 12 that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.”

Bishops and priests are spiritual fathers; Abraham was a spiritual father in OT times.

Did not see the Greek for priest there either; but rather the same word for Bishop; therefore you are adding to Scripture. The Greek word for priest is “Hierourgeo”; completely different than “Presbuteros”, which is used in the passage cited above.

A Bishop is a priest. He is the overseer of other priests who are called presbuteros in the New Testament. Nowhere in Scripture does it state that a New Covenant priest has to be called Hierourgeo.

Hebrews 7:11-13 “Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.”

“Priest” in the English language comes from the Greek word “presbutero.”

Heaven is in agreement with those that give the message of the gospel and those who accept versus those who reject will determine if the sins are forgiven or not; by God alone.

Your interpretation rejects God’s Word. Jesus specifically states: “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.” John 20:23

I believe it best to follow Jesus’ command. Priests forgive sins through the power of Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

There is no altar in the NT; it was done away with because of the perfect sacrafice of Christ to take away the sins from “whosoever will”. Furthermore; Christ is at the right hand of God until he returns and that is easlily proven from Hebrews, Colossians, Romans. Acts…if Christ is not there until His enemies are made His footstool, then the Bible is not true.

1 Corinthians 9:13 “Do you not know that those who minister the holy things eat of the things of the temple, and those who serve at the altar partake of the offerings of the altar?”

Hebrews 13:10 “We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle (Jewish temple) have no right to eat.”

Christ is made present on our altars in the Holy Mass. He is the Paschal Lamb which must be eaten for the remission of sins.

Luke 22:19 "And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

Matthew 26:27-28 “Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

John 6:52 "The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

Jesus claims that He gives His own Flesh and Blood for us to eat. The Greek word used means “chew.”

Verse 63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.” “THE WORDS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU ARE SPIRIT” - Jesus clarifies the manner and the context in which He spoke for any reader that might the same mistake the literal crowd left in unbelief.

Flesh without spiritual animation is dead because flesh needs spirit in order to be a living being. Without our spirits animating our flesh we are but a corpse (dead) and this dead body is useless and decays. Jesus’ Words say that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have eternal life with Him because His Spirit gives our spirits life (spiritual grace) through our eating of His living flesh and blood.

Eating the dead flesh of the animals sacrificed as paschal lambs at Passover cannot save us but eating Jesus’ living flesh as Paschal Lamb can save us if we receive it in a worthy manner. His Spirit will animate both our spirits and bodies forever after we receive new bodies at the Resurrection of the Dead when He returns at His Second Coming.

Holy Eucharist is the way that God has chosen for those persons in His New Covenant Church, who obey Him, to be nourished both spiritually and physically on earth in order that they may live eternally with Him in heaven after the Resurrection of the Dead and the Last Judgment.

1 Corinthians 10:15-17 “I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.”

1 Corinthians 11:26-28 “For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup.”

Check out members.cox.net/studyhisword/HolyMass.pdf for a better understanding of the Holy Mass.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

"Most blessed of women is Jael, The wife of Heber the Kenite; (Judges 5:24) She is the MOST blessesd of women, above Mary.

Mary is of the NT, not the OT. The mother of Jesus is exalted above every other creature on earth. She gave her own DNA to form Him in her womb and she imitated her Son perfectly and she is our greatest model of Christian charity. She is the Ark of the New Covenant who bore the Savior of the world in her pure womb.


http://members.cox.net/studyhisword/ArkNewCovenant.pdf

This is in heaven and not on earth; however this may return during the millennial reign…I’m not real clear on that aspect.

Incense is used in every high Mass and for special Masses in the Catholic Churches. The prayers of the people are offered up in every Mass.

This Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was prophesied in Malachi 1:11-11 “For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations,” Says the LORD of hosts.”

This means that right now, in these times of the Gentiles in which you and I live, that this pure offering (Jesus’ Body and Blood truly present in the Holy Eucharist) is being offered daily (from the rising of the sun, even to its going down) in Catholic Masses throughout the world (among the nations) for the remission of sins and this miracle will continue until Jesus returns.

Pax,
SHW

 

[fbl9]

Maybe you don’t understand the Holy Spirit and the Paraclete are the same person, I don’t know, but, the HS is given to each believing member of the body of Christ—the Church, and the Paraclete is given forever, thus the language of guarantee—the sealing of the Spirit.

…So when one falls into sin the HS stays with them?

[/quote]

[/quote]

[/quote]

[/quote]

[/quote]

like you would even listen to some one you have claimed to be inconsistant.
[/quote]
[/QUOTE]

 

[SHW]

It’s true, He’ll return only once to this earth. But where does His church meet Him? You quoted it yourself:“To meet the Lord in the air.” His foot does not set down on this earth at that time. But this catching up to meet Him in the air fulfills what Jesus promised His church 2000 years ago:John 14:1-3 "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, {there} you may be also."Looks to me that in Matt. 25:31-46 He’s just dealing with the living.

Hi Moondweller,

Matthew 26:63-64 "But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, ** hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven **.”

Jesus states that hereafter (from now on after His death and resurrection and ascension) you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power of God (Holy Spirit) and coming on the clouds of heaven. Jesus is in heaven right now, sitting at the right hand of God and He will come again in the clouds at His Second Coming.

Acts 1:9-11"Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Jesus comes in the clouds at His Second Coming in the same manner that He ascended into heaven (in the clouds). (Revelation 1:7)

Jesus promises in John 14:1-3 that after He prepares a place for them that He will return for them. He promises that where He is, there they will be also, and so if these dwelling places are in heaven in His Father’s house as He says they are, then He has to be in heaven with them in order to fulfill this promise to “be with them.”

Jesus cannot be ruling in a literal physical kingdom of Israel in Jerusalem on earth if He is forever with His Church in heaven as He promised.

“His foot not touching down” is not meant to be understood as a “rapture of the Church away from earth before the great tribulation” but it is instead His Second Coming. He will return in the same manner that He left when He ascended into heaven: with clouds.

Mark 13:24-27 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.”

This is the Second Coming and we are all gathered together in order to be judged as to whether we inherit eternal life or not. (Romans 2:5-6, Revelation 20:11-13)

Matthew 25:32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.”

What happens to those persons who are still alive when He comes on the clouds at His Second Coming in order to gather us together for Judgment?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

If you look carefully, the dead rise first before we who are still alive meet both them and Jesus in the air in the clouds. Those who remain alive after the final tribulation meet Jesus in the clouds at His Second Coming. Jesus never touches down on earth since we meet Him in the air along with the dead who rose first and who came with Him to meet us. Notice that we are never parted from Him again (we will always be with the Lord).

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

When we, who are still alive after the great tribulation, meet Jesus in the air at the last trumpet, we are changed immediately (in a twinkling of an eye) from mortal bodies to immortal bodies. The dead rise first and receive their incorruptible bodies and then we receive ours. We meet each other in the air and we are forever with the Lord. The Judgment begins after our meeting in the air.

All of these Scriptures pertain to the Second Coming after the great tribulation. There is no “rapture of the Church” before the great tribulation.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Tribulation and the "Rapture"

People think that God will whisk them up to heaven out of harms way before the great tribulation by means of a rapture. But, He did not “rapture” the early Christians; many died cruel deaths and became martyrs, including most of the Apostles. And there have been countless Christian martyrs throughout history who gave their lives for Christ and who did not deny Him under persecution and tribulation and death. He is not going to rapture the Church away from earth before His Second Coming either. The Church will also have to go through this great tribulation, just as it has gone through persecutions and tribulations throughout the ages.

Suffering is what helps purify us so that we can inherit the crown of eternal life, but this concept is alien to the American mindset!

Matthew 24:9 “Then** they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you**, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.”

This rapture idea has sold a lot of books and made people millionaires. It also gives people a “false” security.

Acts 14:21-23 “And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” 23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.”

Romans 5:3-5 “And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.”

1 Thessalonians 3:4 “For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.”

2 Thessalonians 1:3-5 “We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that** we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure**, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;”

Enduring persecutions and tribulations until our deaths makes us worthy of inheriting the kingdom of God.

Matthew 10:22 “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.”

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Revelation 7:13-15 “Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.”

Many early Christians and those who followed after them in the faith suffered persecution and martyrdom, and Christians are still dying as martyrs today. God did not rescue them out of tribulation. He strengthened them so that they could endure it and be approved for the crown of eternal life. (Philippians 4:13)

Revelation 3:11 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.”

Scripture states that we must persevere through tribulation so that we may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God and receive the crown of eternal life.

There is no rapture of the Church away from the earth before the great tribulation. Those who are alive at that time must endure it in order to inherit the crown of eternal life. Those who are still alive after the great tribulation, meet Christ “in the air” at His Second Coming, which happens right before the General Judgment, as I explained in the previous post.

Pax,
SHW