What does it mean to be a man?

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we had a saying at school:

Girls are weak,
chuck 'em in the creek
Boys are strong,
Like King Kong

I think that just about sums up what we are. Big hairy apes…hehehe
 
The basis of manhood is just reproductive plumbing and body structiure.

The rest is cultural overlay and cinematic myth.

People are of good or bad character, irrespective of gender. We do ourselves a disservice, if we believe in the meretricious mythology of manhood.
That about sums up the facts of the matter.

I fulfill my role as a woman by giving birth and nursing my children. My husband fulfills his role as a man by providing the sperm.

The rest is only a fascinating and elaborate mythology of ‘ideal masculinity’ and ‘ideal femininity’.

It can even be dangerous, as one poster suggested, to ‘strive’ towards the stereotypical ‘ideal’. Should I strive to be ‘provided for’ and quit my wonderful job as a university teacher and force my husband, the happy SAHD, to strive to ‘provide’ and find some work that would feed us all with his high school diploma? That would make us all miserable.

Should I burn my MSc thesis, because, according to the defense committee, it is an original contribution to my field and thus a ‘penetration’?

We should strive to become what God expects of us, what He created as potentials and talents in us, and not what cultural mythologies tell us.
 
I also have to stress how these stereotypes differ from culture to culture. In my country, peasant women are traditionally expected to work very hard in the fields and thus ‘provide’ just as much as men. A traditional test of whether a girl is prepared for marriage is giving her a huge bucket full of water in each hand and having her carry them 30 meters. Women are supposed to be ‘strong’ too.
 
What are the attributes of “maleness”?
To follow in the footsteps of our Lord, Jesus Christ, is to not only be a man but to be the best of men, for He is the perfect man; not only in virtue of His humanity being united to His Divinity but also in virtue of His living example: He lives as holiness, as justice, as love and mercy. To follow Him, we love Him, and we love Him by obeying His commandments, for a son always honors his Father. Jesus is the New Adam, Father of mankind. What better model of manhood is there but He in Whose Image and Likeness we are created? Some women might say, “Do not say manhood, but strength!” but I am not ashamed of manhood, and neither should any woman, for we all come from the Father through the Son, and the Son took on the form of a man.
 
Women are supposed to be ‘strong’ too.
Some of the best Catholic women I’ve known are the strong and stubborn women who are my friends. They are the sweetest ladies but they don’t take BS from anyone, work just as hard for their families as their men, and God help anyone who crosses them on the wrong side!

As for me, people always tell me they like how I’m into my faith and that I strive to be a good Catholic woman. I’ve also been known to spout righteous anger and I’m known for my stubborn determination to get things done. Must be my Italian-Scottish blood:p

Besides, don’t mothers do everything they can to defend and protect their children? It’s not just a “manly” trait. I don’t believe strength is a “man’s only” trait either. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have saints like the ones I’ve mentioned. Or the moms on this board!

I think people should concentrate on following God’s plans for their own lives and not worry so much about society’s (yes, society’s) own concepts regarding men and women. God calls some women to stay at home, some women to work (in varied kinds of work, from medicine, to military, to teaching, to business), some men to stay at home, and some men to work. And let us not forget our clergy and religious, both who work extremely hard, regardless of gender! If anyone needs any more proof of a woman’s strength, they need to only look at Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity. That takes a very strong and special lady indeed.
 
You seem to miss some key points.

First
I never said women were dumb, incompetent, or weak. On the contrary I said in general they are naturally smarter, more loving, and more aware. Nothing about women not being able to contribute to society.

Second I’m speaking generalities and natural order stemming from TOB.

Third just because you can does not mean it is right. God gave us instructions to judge what is “right” and Loving. He said to look at the fruit of those actions. I see the fruit of that “actions” all around me in the youth, pro-life, and Pro-family ministries. The young ladies in the youth group define their worth by the grade on the paper. The other ladies act much more like men than the boys. Young men wait to be enabled to act. The would-be fathers and mothers so afraid of there responsibilities. The young men and women who are so twisted they don’t trust or appreciate the opposite sex. Every single time we can trace it back to the responsibility of the parents, to show them what is right not just by telling them but by showing them.

Love is ordered. It is win-win if properly and responsibly acted upon. In the youth you could tell which ones having loving parents like the ones I described and the ones who parents are confused. The confused children are in so much pain and the properly loved ones so strong.

It is our entire fault and it is not our fault (choices we make and the choices that were giving to us). We are passed on what our parents have learned from their parents. We are at the mercy of what “society” does to us. But Love, the greatest of all can heal it all! It depends on how deep you look, how deep you strive to. Love is not about what is best for me (or one sex); it is about Love for all, the goodness of all.

The great fruit of Love is Life, children (spiritual or real). They will bear what our actions are now. My vocation is to stand and protect God’s precious little ones. Not by holding them back for some worthless paper saying I’ve done something but by truly living a life in the fullness of Love, natural Love)

Humility is the door to seeing the goodness God wants to show all and not just for some!

God Bless,
John Anthony

BTW. Do not mock Joan or Arks sacrifice with feminism, she put on that armor and lead those people out of pure love and not to make a point that women can lead and fight.
 
I do not mock my own patron saint.

Also, what is wrong with women leading or fighting out of pure love. My point was that they CAN lead and fight, and while Joan of Arc was not fighting for women’s rights, she shows that women can and will do things, regardless of what they are “supposed” to do.

Nor do I think women should define their worth by their grades or anything else except for their status as a child of God. I don’t think anyone should. I think that people should focus on God’s purpose for their OWN lives and allow HIM to act through them, through prayer and the Sacraments as well as building up their own talents because above all, He gave them to us. Focus on God and His plans, not just “roles”.
 
To follow in the footsteps of our Lord, Jesus Christ, is to not only be a man but to be the best of men, for He is the perfect man; not only in virtue of His humanity being united to His Divinity but also in virtue of His living example: He lives as holiness, as justice, as love and mercy. To follow Him, we love Him, and we love Him by obeying His commandments, for a son always honors his Father. Jesus is the New Adam, Father of mankind. What better model of manhood is there but He in Whose Image and Likeness we are created? Some women might say, “Do not say manhood, but strength!” but I am not ashamed of manhood, and neither should any woman, for we all come from the Father through the Son, and the Son took on the form of a man.
This is beautiful. I agree. I listened to a call in program hosted by a priest not too long ago, and the caller was asking about manhood, and that he lost his job, he no longer felt ‘like a man.’ The priest said something I’ll never forget…he said…“Being a man has nothing to do with having a job. We are not the sum total of our accomplishments. We are who we are in Christ. What Christ values in us, is what matters.” Not that men should be shirking responsibilities…no, but it was directed at the caller who seemed to view his whole existence on the amount of money he was making…and that losing his job meant his wife, possibly God, would look down on him.

I think that as humans, we attach secular nonsense to genders. Secular nonsense is not of God. If a man is truly living his life for Christ…and trying to mirror Christ to others…he is most certainly manly.
 
You seem to miss some key points.

First
I never said women were dumb, incompetent, or weak. On the contrary I said in general they are naturally smarter, more loving, and more aware. Nothing about women not being able to contribute to society.

Second I’m speaking generalities and natural order stemming from TOB.

Third just because you can does not mean it is right. God gave us instructions to judge what is “right” and Loving. He said to look at the fruit of those actions. I see the fruit of that “actions” all around me in the youth, pro-life, and Pro-family ministries. The young ladies in the youth group define their worth by the grade on the paper. The other ladies act much more like men than the boys. Young men wait to be enabled to act. The would-be fathers and mothers so afraid of there responsibilities. The young men and women who are so twisted they don’t trust or appreciate the opposite sex. Every single time we can trace it back to the responsibility of the parents, to show them what is right not just by telling them but by showing them.

Love is ordered. It is win-win if properly and responsibly acted upon. In the youth you could tell which ones having loving parents like the ones I described and the ones who parents are confused. The confused children are in so much pain and the properly loved ones so strong.

It is our entire fault and it is not our fault (choices we make and the choices that were giving to us). We are passed on what our parents have learned from their parents. We are at the mercy of what “society” does to us. But Love, the greatest of all can heal it all! It depends on how deep you look, how deep you strive to. Love is not about what is best for me (or one sex); it is about Love for all, the goodness of all.

The great fruit of Love is Life, children (spiritual or real). They will bear what our actions are now. My vocation is to stand and protect God’s precious little ones. Not by holding them back for some worthless paper saying I’ve done something but by truly living a life in the fullness of Love, natural Love)

Humility is the door to seeing the goodness God wants to show all and not just for some!

God Bless,
John Anthony

BTW. Do not mock Joan or Arks sacrifice with feminism, she put on that armor and lead those people out of pure love and not to make a point that women can lead and fight.
You post very beautiful sentiments. Women and men can serve God in a variety of ways. If someone is called to serve in a particular way that you personally feel is not suitable for that gender, it really is just your opinion. We all have opinions. Opinions are not facts, though. I think you are probably talking more about radical feminism, and that really isn’t what maria or I were speaking of.

I think that our society has been damaged and continues to be, from radical feminism.

All that being said, not sure what this has to do with being a man. Comparing men to women, in order to make a point about what it means to be a man, I’m not sure of the relevance.

Anyways, blessings to you for an enriching and beautiful Christmas.🙂
 
Both my SAHD husband and working mom me were raised in strong marriages.

Neither of us value ourselves or each other based on marks or whatever.

I don’t understand AH’s point.

I also don’t understand how Darwinist or purely biological ‘arguments’ can be applied to gender roles. If there indeed were prehistoric hunting tribes where mn hunted and women collected roots or whatever, what’s it to me? Does it determine me? Does the notion that many prehistoric men were promiscuous in order to propagate their DNA determine that men today just must be unfaithful to their wives?
 
You post very beautiful sentiments. Women and men can serve God in a variety of ways. If someone is called to serve in a particular way that you personally feel is not suitable for that gender, it really is just your opinion. We all have opinions. Opinions are not facts, though. I think you are probably talking more about radical feminism, and that really isn’t what maria or I were speaking of.

I think that our society has been damaged and continues to be, from radical feminism.

All that being said, not sure what this has to do with being a man. Comparing men to women, in order to make a point about what it means to be a man, I’m not sure of the relevance.

Anyways, blessings to you for an enriching and beautiful Christmas.🙂
As AH said, women are men’s complements. In order to really get at the heart of what it means to be a man, is not a matter of what it means to be a man independent of everyone else; it matters what he does in communion with others. If man is to be a hermit, then yes, being a man is dependant on nothing, but what he does himself in no relation to another. Since that complement is needed to fulfill what it means according to AH’s proposition, the relationship to the complement has an important part.

Don’t forget complement does not mean compensation. If you start out from with the idea that a person is to be independant, then complement would seem to fall into compensation for an other’s weakness. The correct postion for this idea is that is essential to determine a how well a man is being a man taking in consideration of being in communion with another or others. In that case complement means doing your role, and helping others do theirs. In football, that a offensive lineman cannot move the ball is not a bad thing, nor that a quarterback needs protection from getting tackeled. (Granted life is not near as compartmentalized as football, but I just though it in there for the point.)

One of the big problems though for AH’s argument is that it is truncated. It does sound like the men’s and women’s roles are compartmentalized, when they are more dynamic, but in order to get at the fundamentals to give a clearer understanding of the proposition some definite boundaries must be set that will not give a true idea of the actual boundries.

If AH is basing his ideas on TOB, then of course it is going to be lacking in dynamics. The book is hundreds of pages, even before you get to even more books giving interpretations of it. I just got out my copy of TOB, good luck trying to wade though 500+ pages of JPII when he’s getting philosophical and theological.

For Maria, part of the problem is that it is more relational than a person’s actual ability. So I think you are right in using your antidotes to point out that if you leave it up a person’s abilities, the AH’s argument doesn’t hold true completely in that respect. I’m certain that AH has said so too. I think it would also be well to acknowledge also the limitation of those antidotes. It is a relational thing, to get a real good grasp one would have to have something equivalent to working in communion with another, a spouse, as you both work towards raising up a child or “child” to be a “Man-man instead of a Man-baby” (or a “woman-woman instead of a woman-baby”) as your life’s “magnus opus”, at least if you want to refute the idea on its own terms. (Granted that does not mean one would have to be successful, that child is a unique person with distinct will. It just means as far as the work you’ve done, it was done well.)
 
As AH said, women are men’s complements. In order to really get at the heart of what it means to be a man, is not a matter of what it means to be a man independent of everyone else; it matters what he does in communion with others. If man is to be a hermit, then yes, being a man is dependant on nothing, but what he does himself in no relation to another. Since that complement is needed to fulfill what it means according to AH’s proposition, the relationship to the complement has an important part.

Don’t forget complement does not mean compensation. If you start out from with the idea that a person is to be independant, then complement would seem to fall into compensation for an other’s weakness. The correct postion for this idea is that is essential to determine a how well a man is being a man taking in consideration of being in communion with another or others. In that case complement means doing your role, and helping others do theirs. In football, that a offensive lineman cannot move the ball is not a bad thing, nor that a quarterback needs protection from getting tackeled. (Granted life is not near as compartmentalized as football, but I just though it in there for the point.)

One of the big problems though for AH’s argument is that it is truncated. It does sound like the men’s and women’s roles are compartmentalized, when they are more dynamic, but in order to get at the fundamentals to give a clearer understanding of the proposition some definite boundaries must be set that will not give a true idea of the actual boundries.

If AH is basing his ideas on TOB, then of course it is going to be lacking in dynamics. The book is hundreds of pages, even before you get to even more books giving interpretations of it. I just got out my copy of TOB, good luck trying to wade though 500+ pages of JPII when he’s getting philosophical and theological.

For Maria, part of the problem is that it is more relational than a person’s actual ability. So I think you are right in using your antidotes to point out that if you leave it up a person’s abilities, the AH’s argument doesn’t hold true completely in that respect. I’m certain that AH has said so too. I think it would also be well to acknowledge also the limitation of those antidotes. It is a relational thing, to get a real good grasp one would have to have something equivalent to working in communion with another, a spouse, as you both work towards raising up a child or “child” to be a “Man-man instead of a Man-baby” (or a “woman-woman instead of a woman-baby”) as your life’s “magnus opus”, at least if you want to refute the idea on its own terms. (Granted that does not mean one would have to be successful, that child is a unique person with distinct will. It just means as far as the work you’ve done, it was done well.)
If a man tries to model his life after Christ, that is most important. I see what you’re saying, but it’s really not that complex. 😛
 
If a man tries to model his life after Christ, that is most important. I see what you’re saying, but it’s really not that complex. 😛
Let’s not oversimplify it, at once what you are saying “if a man tries to model his life after Christ, that is most important” that is both simple and very complex with respect to how deep you want to go into it, of couse by narrowing it down to that, complex as it can be, complicated and convoluted it is not. For anyone person what that means is simple, but if you want to make a rule to apply to everyone then that can get quite complex, undersome conditions a thing may be permitted in another it may not; though it still goes down to just a few fundamental principles. So as you see, it is both simple and complex. 😉 Ok I’m just playing. 😛 😃
 
Both my SAHD husband and working mom me were raised in strong marriages.

Neither of us value ourselves or each other based on marks or whatever.

I don’t understand AH’s point.

I also don’t understand how Darwinist or purely biological ‘arguments’ can be applied to gender roles. If there indeed were prehistoric hunting tribes where mn hunted and women collected roots or whatever, what’s it to me? Does it determine me? Does the notion that many prehistoric men were promiscuous in order to propagate their DNA determine that men today just must be unfaithful to their wives?
Well of course, part of the problem is if you think purely biological arguments cannot be applied gender roles does not mean that they will play no role. There are physiological differences, not just physically but mentally that may make a more natural fit for relating to another. All things being equal if people have to functioning arms, the one with above average fine motor skills is probably going to be a good fit for a watch maker.

Still that really does not determine anything. The executor of a action determines the action. Of course, there may be cascades of events that may have influenced that decision, both dependant and independent of the person.
 
That about sums up the facts of the matter.

I fulfill my role as a woman by giving birth and nursing my children. My husband fulfills his role as a man by providing the sperm.

The rest is only a fascinating and elaborate mythology of ‘ideal masculinity’ and ‘ideal femininity’.

It can even be dangerous, as one poster suggested, to ‘strive’ towards the stereotypical ‘ideal’. Should I strive to be ‘provided for’ and quit my wonderful job as a university teacher and force my husband, the happy SAHD, to strive to ‘provide’ and find some work that would feed us all with his high school diploma? That would make us all miserable.

Should I burn my MSc thesis, because, according to the defense committee, it is an original contribution to my field and thus a ‘penetration’?

We should strive to become what God expects of us, what He created as potentials and talents in us, and not what cultural mythologies tell us.
So of course we can throw off the old cultural motifs of the mythological ideal man and woman, to replace it the new neo mythological ideal man and woman. If you say we should strive to be what God expects of us, looks like it uses the same “vehicle” to do the same thing, except this one is more correct. Of course we are not infallible we can misinterprete what we think God wants us to do and in effect choose an invalid path.

God is not anti-culture, or maybe that would be better said anti-subculture. We are all individuals and we are all part of a community. It is both ok to be a unique individuals and to be a unique community. A subculture is neither bad nor good; motifs of the culture likewise. Aspects that are not good though need to be reformed to the good.
 
Most of what I pass on rather crudely was “gathered/given” to me but then affirmed through TOB. Below is excerpt from a TOB article about woman’s ordination and why TOB proves it cannot happen. But it has some very key words \ ideas I’ve been presenting.

Male Priesthood: Theology of the body
“In every way a woman’s body is designed around the “genius” of receptivity. In this way John Paul II said woman is the “archetype” of the human race. The human race was designed by God to stand in a posture of receptivity to God’s love-to be the bride of the Bridegroom Christ. A woman’s body is designed to accommodate the environment, to bring the world to her center. The language of her feminine body therefore speaks the language of immanence and connectedness and therefore tells us that God is near, tender, loving, proximate and intimate. The body of a man, on the other hand, speaks the language of externality, of “out there-ness” of what is beyond, powerful, mysterious and awesome. The fundamental phallic thrust of the design of the male body speaks the language of initiative, of moving outward from itself to act upon the environment. It speaks the language of the initiating love of God the Father who made the ‘first move’ outward from Himself toward His beloved. If the female body speaks the language of the immanence of God, His closeness, the language of the male body therefore speaks of the other aspect of God-His total transcendence. God is “out there”, beyond us, totally transcendent, a powerful, awesome mystery. God is both transcendent and immanent all at the same time. He is not either/or and to reveal this God created us male and female. Indeed the Spousal Mystery is the DNA of the entire created order.”

The rest of the article can be found here.
tob.catholicexchange.com/2008/08/08/male-priesthood-the-theology-part-1-of-2/

Another excellent article
tob.catholicexchange.com/2008/11/10/the-language-of-the-female-body/

God Bless,
John
 
Far as I can tell, it’s mostly to do with having testicles,extra hair, and the tendency to hurt others when threatened.

This,however, in no sense denigrates my idea of being a human,anymore than whining, greed, the burden of childbirth - often alone- and victimization are womanly.

We all can do really really well at being humans. So let’s shall,and thrive therefrom!

Yep, I’m a fearless, shameless egalitarian and humanist.
 
Far as I can tell, it’s mostly to do with having testicles,extra hair, and the tendency to hurt others when threatened.

This,however, in no sense denigrates my idea of being a human,anymore than whining, greed, the burden of childbirth - often alone- and victimization are womanly.

We all can do really really well at being humans. So let’s shall,and thrive therefrom!

Yep, I’m a fearless, shameless egalitarian and humazanist.
Perhaps a more appropriate question to you would be what does it mean to be human? What is your aim of egalitarianism? What does it mean to be a humanzanist?
 
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