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Lochias
Guest
Are you implying that Jesus never asked anyone to do good works?
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
Tell me something: James says we are not saved by faith alone but by works:
Is James LYING when he says we are saved by works?
The Holy Spirit does not inspire LYING–if James 2:24 says we are saved by works you can’t throw it out of the bible even if you have a TRILLION other verses in the bible that seem to say something else!
OSAS supporters: DEAL with James 2:24!
Don’t run away from it!
Tell the truth OSAS supporters–wouldn’t it be easier for you if Martin Luther had succeeded in getting James thrown out of the bible?
Anyone with a brain will not throw out James 2:24!
Anyone with a brain will tell you that we are saved by grace.
Anyone with a brain will tell you that we’re saved by faith.
James says we are not saved by “faith alone”
Paul says we are not saved by works.
James and Paul have to be speaking about different things when they address works.
I say: We are grace fully saved by that kind of faith which CONTINUES through “God willed works” unto death!
God does all the saving that way–man does all the cooperating with God by exercising his free will that way–and God’s predestination works perfectly with man exercising the freedom of will that God has given him!
The key to the whole thing is CONTINUANCE!
Salvation comes from faith CONTINUING THROUGH God willed works!
Faith INITIALLY CONTINUES THROUGH God willed works but doesn’t necessarily ALWAYS continues through God willed works.
MORTAL SIN breaks faith CONTINUING.
When that happens either man repents and faith starts once again CONTINUING or man doesn’t repent and dies in that state of not repenting and goes to Hell!
The reason that OSAS supporters don’t like that is because it is HARD!
The reason the devil pushes OSAS is because it is EASY and if he can get anyone to NOT REPENT after mortal sin then SAVING FAITH is stopped and he can take people in that state to Hell!
That’s WHY Jesus speaks of death occurring like a thief in the night!
That’s why St. Paul tells us to WORK OUT our salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING!
If OSAS were true there would be NO REASON for fear or trembling–there would be no reason for Jesus saying to be ready because death could come unexpected like a thief in the night!
The reason I tell OSAS supporters these things at this thread is because I don’t want them to be found UNREADY in a state of MORTAL SIN and death come UNEXPECTEDLY for them–and why? because if that happens they will go to Hell and I don’t want that to happen to anyone!
Why ANYONE would bet their soul on OSAS is unimaginable!
Look–you don’t even have to believe the Catholics here–believe all the other Protestants who ALSO don’t believe OSAS. Believe all the christians for the last 2,000 years who didn’t believe it.
If all of those Chirstians Catholic and non catholic alike will not convince you–what will?
Is James LYING when he says we are saved by works?
The Holy Spirit does not inspire LYING–if James 2:24 says we are saved by works you can’t throw it out of the bible even if you have a TRILLION other verses in the bible that seem to say something else!
OSAS supporters: DEAL with James 2:24!
Don’t run away from it!
Tell the truth OSAS supporters–wouldn’t it be easier for you if Martin Luther had succeeded in getting James thrown out of the bible?
Anyone with a brain will not throw out James 2:24!
Anyone with a brain will tell you that we are saved by grace.
Anyone with a brain will tell you that we’re saved by faith.
James says we are not saved by “faith alone”
Paul says we are not saved by works.
James and Paul have to be speaking about different things when they address works.
I say: We are grace fully saved by that kind of faith which CONTINUES through “God willed works” unto death!
God does all the saving that way–man does all the cooperating with God by exercising his free will that way–and God’s predestination works perfectly with man exercising the freedom of will that God has given him!
The key to the whole thing is CONTINUANCE!
Salvation comes from faith CONTINUING THROUGH God willed works!
Faith INITIALLY CONTINUES THROUGH God willed works but doesn’t necessarily ALWAYS continues through God willed works.
MORTAL SIN breaks faith CONTINUING.
When that happens either man repents and faith starts once again CONTINUING or man doesn’t repent and dies in that state of not repenting and goes to Hell!
The reason that OSAS supporters don’t like that is because it is HARD!
The reason the devil pushes OSAS is because it is EASY and if he can get anyone to NOT REPENT after mortal sin then SAVING FAITH is stopped and he can take people in that state to Hell!
That’s WHY Jesus speaks of death occurring like a thief in the night!
That’s why St. Paul tells us to WORK OUT our salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING!
If OSAS were true there would be NO REASON for fear or trembling–there would be no reason for Jesus saying to be ready because death could come unexpected like a thief in the night!
The reason I tell OSAS supporters these things at this thread is because I don’t want them to be found UNREADY in a state of MORTAL SIN and death come UNEXPECTEDLY for them–and why? because if that happens they will go to Hell and I don’t want that to happen to anyone!
Why ANYONE would bet their soul on OSAS is unimaginable!
Look–you don’t even have to believe the Catholics here–believe all the other Protestants who ALSO don’t believe OSAS. Believe all the christians for the last 2,000 years who didn’t believe it.
If all of those Chirstians Catholic and non catholic alike will not convince you–what will?
W
William_C
Guest
Yeah, right. None of them had theology degrees, nor were any ordained priests. They were just a bunch of working stiffs.Apparently they didn’t.
You mean like saying the Catholic reformers didn’t understand the definition of the word “merit?”Or chose not to. At any rate, whether or not you agree, you are now equipped to cease misrepresenting the RCC on its views on faith and works, 'cause anything less would be a guilty, guilty lie.
Peachy keen.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
** How Is A Catholic Saved? **
Repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38 & 22:16 and John 3:1-21) and then following Christ, (John 14:15, Matthew 10:38, 16:24, & 25:31-46, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23 and Revelation 3:5) which is a lifelong journey.
When Our Lord tells us (in 3 different Gospels as noted above) to “take up our cross daily and follow” Him is that not an action…a work?
I really believe that many n-Cs (having been one for many years) offer a sort of truncated gospel that does not reflect the full context of what we find in reading the entire New Testament. See next post.
Repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38 & 22:16 and John 3:1-21) and then following Christ, (John 14:15, Matthew 10:38, 16:24, & 25:31-46, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23 and Revelation 3:5) which is a lifelong journey.
When Our Lord tells us (in 3 different Gospels as noted above) to “take up our cross daily and follow” Him is that not an action…a work?
I really believe that many n-Cs (having been one for many years) offer a sort of truncated gospel that does not reflect the full context of what we find in reading the entire New Testament. See next post.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
** Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”? **
I believe that the essential “way of salvation” verses that are used in a great many non-Catholic evangelistic messages been have ripped from the pages of the Word of God and bandied about in the last 500 years to further a different and oversimplified deficient Gospel that anyone who sits down and reads the New Testament for themselves without some non-Catholic preacher breathing down their neck every Sunday and Wednesday will soon discover is not the same Gospel of salvation.
I have read the Word of God many times and that is why I am a Catholic. The salvation message of the Catholic Church is in line with the teachings of the New Testament, and I believe that the salvation message of the majority of non-Catholics is some different gospel, condemned by St. Paul and leads to something that I have dubbed “Christianity Lite”.
This is the result of much internet discussion with a variety of non-Catholics.
Read your New Testament from cover to cover and see what the teachings are concerning salvation and then compare the various non-Catholic “ways” and “plans” of salvation with what you have read and see if the Holy Spirit does not show you the deficiencies and differences between the two.
They stop far short of what the New Testament Gospel is while the teachings of the Catholic Church are in fact right in line with it.
I would suggest that the context of the New Testament does not teach the Reformed doctrine and that (as I have stated before) their’s is a different and deficient gospel.
If no works are involved in our salvation, then how do you explain the Gospel message preached on the day of Pentecost (under the influence of the fullness of the Holy Spirit no less!) in Acts 2:37-38.
[37] Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
[38] And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
How do you explain the message delivered to St. Paul himself (especially since you assert that it is his teachings that convince you of the reformed position) in Acts 22:16
[16] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
Obviously, from the message there, baptism is key to salvation and does indeed wash away and forgive sins. The reformed teachings contradict this in spite of the plain sense of the scriptures.
If our works have no merit with regard to our salvation, why then does Our Lord plainly tell us that we will be judged and either welcomed into the Kingdom of God or cast into hell based upon them in Matthew 25: 31-46
[31] “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
[32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
[33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
[34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand,
[38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
[40] And the King will answer them,
[42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
[44] Then they also will answer,
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
(Cont’d)
Code:
It is my own opinion that the majority of non-Catholic salvation messages actually present a different and deficient gospel than that of the New Testament, the early church and the Catholic Church for the last 2,000 years.I have read the Word of God many times and that is why I am a Catholic. The salvation message of the Catholic Church is in line with the teachings of the New Testament, and I believe that the salvation message of the majority of non-Catholics is some different gospel, condemned by St. Paul and leads to something that I have dubbed “Christianity Lite”.
This is the result of much internet discussion with a variety of non-Catholics.
Read your New Testament from cover to cover and see what the teachings are concerning salvation and then compare the various non-Catholic “ways” and “plans” of salvation with what you have read and see if the Holy Spirit does not show you the deficiencies and differences between the two.
They stop far short of what the New Testament Gospel is while the teachings of the Catholic Church are in fact right in line with it.
I would suggest that the context of the New Testament does not teach the Reformed doctrine and that (as I have stated before) their’s is a different and deficient gospel.
If no works are involved in our salvation, then how do you explain the Gospel message preached on the day of Pentecost (under the influence of the fullness of the Holy Spirit no less!) in Acts 2:37-38.
[37] Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
[38] And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
How do you explain the message delivered to St. Paul himself (especially since you assert that it is his teachings that convince you of the reformed position) in Acts 22:16
[16] And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
Obviously, from the message there, baptism is key to salvation and does indeed wash away and forgive sins. The reformed teachings contradict this in spite of the plain sense of the scriptures.
If our works have no merit with regard to our salvation, why then does Our Lord plainly tell us that we will be judged and either welcomed into the Kingdom of God or cast into hell based upon them in Matthew 25: 31-46
[31] “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
[32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
[33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
[34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand,
Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; [35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, [36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' [37] Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?[38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
[40] And the King will answer them,
Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' [41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;[42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
[44] Then they also will answer,
Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' [45] Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
(Cont’d)
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Church_Militant
Guest
The Gospel today is (and should be!) the same as that preached by the apostles in the New Testament. (See Acts 2:37-38 and 22:16 as well as John 3:5) If what is preached is not the same then that (IMO) would qualify as “a different gospel”.
I, like many many Catholics, have heard and seen allegations that ours is a different gospel, but having read the Word of God carefully and prayerfully many times over many years, and comparing the messages of those who make those allegations to the salvation message of the Catholic Church alongside the New Testament, I have found that just the opposite is true.
If, as I suspect, you have read the New Testament all the way through, (more than likely many times over) you can understand what I mean when I say that the Gospel of salvation is actually the topic throughout and I submit that it is the Gospel that is preached by the Catholic Church that accurately aligns with that and not the one of the reformers or their modern step children.
Galatians 1:8] But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9] As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
I, like many many Catholics, have heard and seen allegations that ours is a different gospel, but having read the Word of God carefully and prayerfully many times over many years, and comparing the messages of those who make those allegations to the salvation message of the Catholic Church alongside the New Testament, I have found that just the opposite is true.
If, as I suspect, you have read the New Testament all the way through, (more than likely many times over) you can understand what I mean when I say that the Gospel of salvation is actually the topic throughout and I submit that it is the Gospel that is preached by the Catholic Church that accurately aligns with that and not the one of the reformers or their modern step children.
Galatians 1:8] But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9] As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
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englishredrose
Guest
well done for reading,
but how many times do you share the Living Gospel with those who you meet in your daily live and how do you share. Yes we need to read/hear the Gospel to be able to share but Jesus taught us to Share.Do all those who know you, know you are an active Christian by the example of your actions and your words. That is the way to share our Gospel to all and being able to reach and blend into the crowd and share the Gospel in the way they can hear and relate to. Not as easy as one thinks and many many times fail but Jesus does ask us to share the good news, not just read. Amen
Q
QuickCat
Guest
Purgatory? Note what Paul writes to saved people:Sometimes I long for the days of simple belief when, as a Protestant, all I had to do to be “saved” was to declare my belief in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Wave your hands in the air and shout, “Hallelujah! I’m saved!”. Alas, I returned to my Catholic roots and found out it isn’t so simple. Now here’s my question: As Protestants believe that declaring belief in Jesus as their “personal” (whatever that means) Lord and Savior equates to an instant passage straight to Heaven upon death, how do these sola-scriptura adherents arrive at this conclusion from scripture? Where, exactly, does scripture say that “saved” is synonymous with “going to Heaven” ? Does it say that specifically anywhere? Saved = Heaven. One and the same.
I realize that Protestants don’t believe in Purgatory, so in their minds, what else could “saved” mean? It certainly doesn’t mean that you’re going to Hell, so “saved” must mean “Heaven” in their theology. But isn’t the true meaning of “save, saved, salvation” is that you are just simply rescued from a horrible fate (like death, physical or eternal)? There is no guarantee of Heaven, just a rescue from Hell. Heaven is another story. An analogy: I save someone from drowning. Does the drowning victim’s salvation automatically mean that the rest of their life is going to be a bed of roses? No, it just means that they, for now, have been rescued from certain death. That’s all.
So back to my original question: How do Protestants come to the conclusion, based on sola scriptura, that they are actually going straight to Heaven upon death because they are “saved”. How did the church fathers view “save, saved and salvation”? Rescue from death, or a free ride to paradise? I thank you in advance for your answers!
Php 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord
No purgatory here.
QC
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DavidWJackson
Guest
I think it would be better to say, when one says I am saved and going to Heaven. To say, I am saved and going into the hands of God. Purgatory belongs to God not satin. The souls in Purgatory belong to God and not satin. The souls in Purgatory will eventually cross into Heaven to be with God, eternally.
Isn’t Paul speaking only of himself and his brother apostles in Christ, in the verses qouted? They have spoken directly with Christ. They would surly know their path upon leaving this world leads directly to Heaven. Their souls have no need of purification. Purgatory, as I understand it, is a most wonderful grace granted souls that don’t quite measure up, but do not hate or activly diabolicly work agianst the wishes of God. I understand it is for those who cofess Jesus Christ is Lord, but who’s hearts aren’t completely pure. It’s a place for your soul to come to grips with itself and become pure.
Isn’t Paul speaking only of himself and his brother apostles in Christ, in the verses qouted? They have spoken directly with Christ. They would surly know their path upon leaving this world leads directly to Heaven. Their souls have no need of purification. Purgatory, as I understand it, is a most wonderful grace granted souls that don’t quite measure up, but do not hate or activly diabolicly work agianst the wishes of God. I understand it is for those who cofess Jesus Christ is Lord, but who’s hearts aren’t completely pure. It’s a place for your soul to come to grips with itself and become pure.
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Lochias
Guest
A degree simply means that, at some point, a person was a good student. And nobody is saying that individual persons and priests can’t make mistakes. Luther’s a prime example.
That’s your opinion, bub.
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Lochias
Guest
- “Absent from the body” does not concretely imply that one is also immediately “present with the Lord.”
- Show me where in the Bible that it says we are only to follow the Bible. C’mon. Show me. Verse, page. Show me.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Why would you ask a brother to brag like that?well done for reading,
but how many times do you share the Living Gospel with those who you meet in your daily live and how do you share. Yes we need to read/hear the Gospel to be able to share but Jesus taught us to Share.Do all those who know you, know you are an active Christian by the example of your actions and your words. That is the way to share our Gospel to all and being able to reach and blend into the crowd and share the Gospel in the way they can hear and relate to. Not as easy as one thinks and many many times fail but Jesus does ask us to share the good news, not just read. Amen
I actually share my faith quite a lot, verbally and in using a variety of good Catholic tracts like Top Ten Questions Catholics are Asked and Grotto Press Catholic Tracts and even Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth and other materials. I am also involved in a Catholic prison correspondence ministry which supplies Catholic Bibles and other materials to inmates as well as the friendship of writing to them to encourage them in the faith.
See…now you made me boast like St. Paul.
[BIBLEDRB]2 Corinthians 10:8[/BIBLEDRB]
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William_C
Guest
But not a good enough student either to learn, or to understand the meaning of the word “merit?” Is that what you’re saying?
Yes it is. :yup:That’s your opinion, bub.
W
William_C
Guest
That’s right, **it isn’t an implication of anything, but a statement of fact. **
Lochias said:
Show me in the Bible where it says that we are to reject what the bible says in favor of something else? C’mon. Show me. Verse, page. Show me.
J
JerBear_Meaux
Guest
I understood what he said
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Lochias
Guest
Willfull ignorance is still ignorance.But not a good enough student either to learn, or to understand the meaning of the word “merit?” Is that what you’re saying?
L
Lochias
Guest
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Show me where we are to run away from James 2:24 and act like it either doesn’t exist or means exactly the opposite of what it says!
As long as you run away from James 2:24 you’ll be running straight to Hell!
As long as you run away from James 2:24 you’ll be running straight to Hell!
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William_C
Guest
So it’s your contention the very well educated Catholic priest, theologian and teacher was ignorant?Willfull ignorance is still ignorance.
W
William_C
Guest
Interesting.
Is that your understanding of all of Scripture, or just that one verse?
Forgive me, but are you saying you can’t show me in the Bible anywhere that it says that we are to reject what the bible says in favor of something else?
Is that what you’re saying?
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