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Lochias
Guest
Don’t know. Don’t know the context, don’t know what he said. Care to try to shove any other words in my mouth? Your track record is starting to look awful shabby, here.
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William_C
Guest
You don’t know if what I said is what you are contending? You said Luther was willfully ignorant. Unless you don’t mean that Luther was willfully ignorant, but incredibly intelligent.
Which is it you believe about Luther? He was willfully ignorant, or he was incredibly intelligent?
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Faithdancer
Guest
You’re really making progress with those smilies, William C.Typical Akin.
Nobody understands the Catholic term “merit” like Catholics understand it, except for the Catholic reformers, they didn’t understand the Catholic term merit at all.
Just sayin. Other than that wisecrack I’m staying out of this particular fray.
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Michael_Francis
Guest
***The level of charity in this thread has failed to meet the highest standards of CAF’s rules and guidelines and several posts have been deleted.
If this does not change immediately, this thread will be closed and citations will be issued.***
If this does not change immediately, this thread will be closed and citations will be issued.***
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englishredrose
Guest
I am not asking you to brag.Why would you ask a brother to brag like that?
I actually share my faith quite a lot, verbally and in using a variety of good Catholic tracts like Top Ten Questions Catholics are Asked and Grotto Press Catholic Tracts and even Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth and other materials. I am also involved in a Catholic prison correspondence ministry which supplies Catholic Bibles and other materials to inmates as well as the friendship of writing to them to encourage them in the faith.
See…now you made me boast like St. Paul.
[BIBLEDRB]2 Corinthians 10:8[/BIBLEDRB]
You seem to come over strong that you read, and you seem to imply here that its bad to boast like St Paul? What is wrong about being like St Paul, if you are being genuine that is and not taking the micky out of St Paul? Very few postings here on CAF preach the good news of the Gospel and as you have stated you clearly read the Gospel i wondered if you could share the good news here and get involved here that way and set a new trend for CAF since there are a lot of newbie Catholics who haven’t heard the good news of the Gospel yet and it be good to see why it is good being Catholic…?
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QuickCat
Guest
James is writing to Israel, a people still under the Law. Paul is writing to believers in this “dispensation of the grace of God” [Eph. 3:2].
If works keep us saved [and they don’t] how many works are needed? Can you ever be sure you have worked enough? You can’t honestly answer this in the affirmative.
In this dispensation we are saved by grace throguh faith and not of works. This is abundantly clear in Paul’s epistles.
The moment we are saved, by believing the gospel of salvation [1 Cor. 15:1-4] we are sealed by God the Holy Spirit [Eph. 1:13] until the day of redemption of our body. Nothing could be clearer.
We can know that we are saved [1 John 5:13], we can rest in this salvation and we can work to tell others of this “so great salvation” because we are ambassadors for the Lord Jesus Christ [2 Cor. 5:18-21].
QC
If works keep us saved [and they don’t] how many works are needed? Can you ever be sure you have worked enough? You can’t honestly answer this in the affirmative.
In this dispensation we are saved by grace throguh faith and not of works. This is abundantly clear in Paul’s epistles.
The moment we are saved, by believing the gospel of salvation [1 Cor. 15:1-4] we are sealed by God the Holy Spirit [Eph. 1:13] until the day of redemption of our body. Nothing could be clearer.
We can know that we are saved [1 John 5:13], we can rest in this salvation and we can work to tell others of this “so great salvation” because we are ambassadors for the Lord Jesus Christ [2 Cor. 5:18-21].
QC
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
If what you say is indeed true then are we supposed to ignore James 2:24?
James says we are saved by WORKS–does James lie?
St. Paul tells us to “WORK out our salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING”.
If that is true how can we “REST”?
If salvation comes from “FAITH ALONE” what is there to work out?
Does Paul lie when he tells us to do that?
If James says we ARE NOT saved by “FAITH ALONE” does James lie?
How can ANYONE who claims to be christian run away from James 2:24?
Works don’t keep us saved–remaining in a state of grace keeps us saved. One has to do “God willed works” to remain in a state of grace because if you refuse to do a “God willed work” you disobey God–Mortally sin–and then will go to Hell if you do not repent.
See–that’s the whole issue–Once Saved Always Saved being easy and the devil’s way versus remaining in a state of grace–“working out one’s salvation with fear and trembling” which is HARD and is God’s way!
It is a matter of faith being just a BRAND that you would put on cattle versus faith being CONTINUING–FLOWING–PERSEVERING which is like God’s nature when He said I AM.
Not I AM at one discrete instant in time but CONTINUING!
Real faith means CONTINUANCE but REAL FAITH doesn’t always NECESSARILY mean continuance–a person can MORTALLY sin and BREAK the flow!
Now could God make us so that we’d be like robots and not be able to exercise freedom of will and BREAK the flow? Yes–God is all powerful and could do that but CHOOSES not to do that because as the scriptures say “God is love” and “love does not demand its own way”
Simply stated if God didn’t allow us the freedom to TURN AWAY from Him God would not be love!
James says we are saved by WORKS–does James lie?
St. Paul tells us to “WORK out our salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING”.
If that is true how can we “REST”?
If salvation comes from “FAITH ALONE” what is there to work out?
Does Paul lie when he tells us to do that?
If James says we ARE NOT saved by “FAITH ALONE” does James lie?
How can ANYONE who claims to be christian run away from James 2:24?
Works don’t keep us saved–remaining in a state of grace keeps us saved. One has to do “God willed works” to remain in a state of grace because if you refuse to do a “God willed work” you disobey God–Mortally sin–and then will go to Hell if you do not repent.
See–that’s the whole issue–Once Saved Always Saved being easy and the devil’s way versus remaining in a state of grace–“working out one’s salvation with fear and trembling” which is HARD and is God’s way!
It is a matter of faith being just a BRAND that you would put on cattle versus faith being CONTINUING–FLOWING–PERSEVERING which is like God’s nature when He said I AM.
Not I AM at one discrete instant in time but CONTINUING!
Real faith means CONTINUANCE but REAL FAITH doesn’t always NECESSARILY mean continuance–a person can MORTALLY sin and BREAK the flow!
Now could God make us so that we’d be like robots and not be able to exercise freedom of will and BREAK the flow? Yes–God is all powerful and could do that but CHOOSES not to do that because as the scriptures say “God is love” and “love does not demand its own way”
Simply stated if God didn’t allow us the freedom to TURN AWAY from Him God would not be love!
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mac1234567
Guest
I have found www.gotquestions.org has some good answers on the subject!
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William_C
Guest
James is saying that a saving faith works, and not that a working faith saves.
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
If that’s what James is saying then why didn’t he say it that way, then?
WHY did James say that we are saved by works?
WHY did James say that we are saved by works?
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PJM
Guest
WOW
Would you PLEASE explain what you mean in greater detail.
I don’t find anywhere in my bible that “Faith alone” is sufficient.
I WOULD TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF “BIBLE SALVATION”
GOD BLESS you my friend,
Pat /PJM
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William_C
Guest
Are you saved by your works?
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ahs
Guest
We are saved by Grace…through faith+works.
It seems like some Christians, Catholics and Protestants alike, sometimes see “works” and “faith” as mutually exclusive terms. Are they? Scripture tells us that one is useless without the other…it is and/both, not either/or.
Pat makes a good point, William C. “Faith alone” is no where to be found in Scripture, or in Sacred Tradition, as being sufficient. I’m genuinely interested in what your understanding of “Bible Salvation” is. I have a hunch that, in the end, it’s not so very different that the Catholic teaching…if you really are using Scripture to define it.WOW
Would you PLEASE explain what you mean in greater detail.
I don’t find anywhere in my bible that “Faith alone” is sufficient.
I WOULD TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF “BIBLE SALVATION”
GOD BLESS you my friend,
Pat /PJM
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Church_Militant
Guest
I have no problem with being as much like St. Paul or any of the apostles. My goal in life is to become a saint like them and I especially identify with Sts Peter and Thomas because they also recognized their sinfulness and had a very deep and strong conversion.I am not asking you to brag.
You must be new around here or something. Check my post history and I think you’ll find that I am very heavily into sharing the faith.
Most of my blog articles are the results of discussions or debates here on CAF where I have to explain and defend the Gospel. In fact, what exactly do you think this thread is all about? But just so you’ll know that I can present the good news of the Gospel…
** How Is A Catholic Saved? **
Repentance and baptism (Acts 2:38 & 22:16 and John 3:1-21) and then following Christ, (John 14:15, Matthew 10:38, 16:24, & 25:31-46, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23 and Revelation 3:5) which is a lifelong journey and not the oversimplified “plan of salvation” as presented by some non-Catholic communities…
What in the world kind of remark is that?
I don’t think you’re playing straight with us Rose because every single “newbie Catholic” on here has recently been through months of Bible study and instruction about what coming to Christ as a Catholic means. Some have been baptized and others have been received by profession of their faith that they believe as the Church teaches.However, if you mean that we don’t crank out posts that tell others that they need to “get saved” by saying a prayer and “accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior”, then you’re right, because none of that is found in the New Testament and nowhere in there does it ever infer that conversion is a single event, after which the person is “saved”. Conversion might begin something like that, but the Gospel of salvation is more a journey…a race, as the writer of Hebrews calls it and as Our Lord Himself tells us we make that that journey by taking up our cross daily and following Him as was made plain to us all just this past Sunday in the readings at Mass.
Yes, I do come across strong but part of that is that tone and attitude are difficult to convey in writing on message boards, but make no mistake I am consecrated and committed to spreading the Gospel throughout the whole world.
As a Catholic, I carefully study to show myself approved unto God, rightly dividing the word of truth to insure that the message that is convey is actually what the New Testament and the Catholic Church has been preaching for all 2,000 years of Christian history.
See if your gospel is the same as that of the New Testament and the early church.
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?
“I Find No Sacraments In the Bible” he said.
God’s peace,
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Well that’s according to you William, but you seem to have missed a number of very clear salvation passages in the New Testament. Oh and BTW the Catholic Church doesn’t teach we are saved by our works. Some people here may not have made that clear to you, not knowing how to effectively express what we believe, but as you’ll see in this post the Church has never taught that…and never will.**Works don’t save.****…The just shall live by faith." **(Rom 1:17; cf Hab 2:4).
**“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of law.” **(Rom 3:28).You’re wrong, friend. Pat’s point is not good at all.
For instance: Acts 2:38 & 22:16 and John 3:1-21 which shows that Baptism is actually vital to salvation and (according to St. Paul’s conversion in Acts 22) actually does wash away sins.
John 14:15, Matthew 10:38, 16:24, & 25:31-46, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23 and Revelation 3:5, all of which teach that we must follow Christ and persevere to the end.
My friend John Martignoni explains this very well in his 2 Minute Apologetics section.
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William_C
Guest
Yes it is.
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PJM
Guest
DEPEND on how YOU choose to define “works”
Through accepting GRACE and Faith [a work]
Through Baptism [a work]
Through Complete Obedience to the Commandments [lots of works]
Through Charity and good works [lot of works too
]Through the Sacraments Especially Confession for REAL forgivness of my sins. [a work]
Through the Eucharist [Jesus HIMSELF]
THEN OFTER ALL OF THIS I HOPE, PRAY AND WITH CAUTIOUS EXPECTATION RELY ON GOD’S PROMISED MERCY FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM [ALL OF THE ABOVE REQUIRED]
God Bless,
Pat /PJM
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William_C
Guest
Is that “yes,” or “no?”DEPEND on how YOU choose to define “works”
Through accepting GRACE and Faith [a work]
Through Baptism [a work]
Through Complete Obedience to the Commandments [lots of works]
Through Charity and good works [lot of works too
Through the Sacraments Especially Confession for REAL forgivness of my sins. [a work]
Through the Eucharist [Jesus HIMSELF]
THEN OFTER ALL OF THIS I HOPE, PRAY AND WITH CAUTIOUS EXPECTATION RELY ON GOD’S PROMISED MERCY FOR ALL WHO OBEY HIM [ALL OF THE ABOVE REQUIRED]
God Bless,
Pat /PJM
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