What does it mean to be "saved"? Catholic vs. Protestant

[dje101]

I suspect that Protestants base their theory of salvation by faith alone on the following passage from Ephesians:

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2:7-9&version=ESV

The problem is that this ignores Mt 25:31-46 and James 2:14-26.

Even aside from those passages (which are about as clear as one can get regarding this issue), many parable Jesus gives in Matthew (with the exception of the mustard seed type parables), all have something to do with a person’s actions and not just their faith.

Matt 5:16-- Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father. NAB

Matt 7:12-- Do to others as you would have them do to you. This is the law and the prophets. NAB

Matt 7:21, 24, 26 – Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven…Everyone who listens to these words of mine AND ACTS ON THEM will be like a wise man who built his house on a rock…And everyone who listens to these words of mine BUT DOES NOT ACT ON THEM will be like a fool who built his house on sand. (emphasis mine, NAB)

Even in John 15:1-2 and further on…
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit.”

I just did a quick flip through my bible. These are just a few spots that I was able to find. It’s almost 1am and I’m kind of tired, I just did a quick run-through. But it amazes me that some will claim that all we need is faith, yet they ignore SO many of the verses of the very book that they say has all authority and teachings, most especially Matthew 25 and James 2.

 

[QuickCat]

.

No. But faith without works is a dead faith, and the gifts that God chooses to give us for our works are not earned…they are given because God is a loving God and freely gives to those who love Him in return.

Catholic salvation IS Biblical salvation. The Bible is a Catholic document. History 101. Better start readin’, bub.

Lochias: Greetings, I pray that you are well and happy in the Lord Jesus Christ, as I am.
Should we not read the address on the envelope to determine if the mail is ours? James, per Gal. 2:9, agreed to confine his ministry to Israel. He wrote his epistle very early in the period covered by the book of Acts. At that time the “12 tribes” were still under the law. Now I would agree with you if you use Eph. 2:10 for your argument. We are indeed saved “unto good works.” With that said, I will remind you that we are not saved nor kept by works. God the Holy Spirit sealed me the moment I believed in the Lord Jesus Christ [Eph. 1:13] and the very righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ was imputed to me at that time [2 Cor. 5:21]. What a wonderful Savior.
QC

 

[William_C]

But it amazes me that some will claim that all we need is faith, yet they ignore SO many of the verses of the very book that they say has all authority and teachings, most especially Matthew 25 and James 2.

So you are saved by your works, is that what you are saying?

On another thread, and in other places away from this forum, Catholics claim they are not saved by their works.

If that’s true, that they are not saved by their works, then Catholics would have to agree that they were saved only by grace through faith, as the scripture says (cf Eph 2:8ff), correct?

 

[QuickCat]

So you are saved by your works, is that what you are saying?

On another thread, and in other places away from this forum, Catholics claim they are not saved by their works.

If that’s true, that they are not saved by their works, then Catholics would have to agree that they were saved only by grace through faith, as the scripture says (cf Eph 2:8ff), correct?

Right on William! Good job!
QC

 

[englishredrose]

God loves us all.

I don’t think about Heaven in terms of Salvation. Or Salvation in terms of Heaven. One gets tied up in too many knotts etc.

I keep it simple sister, KISS and just say God loves us all. That is very easy to deal with.

 

[dje101]

So you are saved by your works, is that what you are saying?

On another thread, and in other places away from this forum, Catholics claim they are not saved by their works.

If that’s true, that they are not saved by their works, then Catholics would have to agree that they were saved only by grace through faith, as the scripture says (cf Eph 2:8ff), correct?

No, not just works, but not just faith either: faith AND works. We are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8), but that faith is dead with out works (James 2:17). We need to take ALL the verses of the bible into account.

 

[William_C]

No, not just works, but not just faith either: faith AND works. We are saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8), but that faith is dead with out works (James 2:17). We need to take ALL the verses of the bible into account.

OK, then your works do save you, correct? Through them you obtain eternal life.

However, you cite from Eph 2. In verse nine of that chapter, the statement is made that salvation is “not of works.” How do you resolve the seeming contradiction between Paul and James?

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The way to solve the difference between Paul and James is easy–NO humanh initiated works will save anyone.

No “:works of the law” will save anyone.

BUT “GOD WILLED WORKS” when coupled with faith DO SAVE.

Faith is COMPLETED and PERFECTED in God willed works.

If God willed works do not exist after faith then that faith that is not completed in them WILL NOT SAVE!

now some people who claim to believe in savation by faith alone will tell you that REAL faith ALWAYS results in good works that are WILLED by God to be accomplished.

This is certtainly most of the time true–but is not NECESSARILY ALL TIMES true.

A person can have faith and then refuse to do a work that is God’s will.

When that happens the person has MORTALLY sinned and if that person dies in that state without repenting then that person will go to Hell and all the great faith prior and all the good God willed works prior WILL NOT SAVE that person!

That’s the REAL reason that Protestantism is attractive.

That is why it was attractive to Luther–if one believes that one doesn’t have to believe in MORTAL sin–if they believe in Once Saved always saved then you don’t have to WORK out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING–you’re covered–just like Luther said–you’d enter heaven like dung covered by Christ’s righteouness!

That is a lie! Jesus didn’t die on the cross so that DUNG would enter heaven that was only COVERED up dung–He died so that people would entewr heaven TRANSFORMED into PERFECT holiness to the point to where they WEREN’T dung anymore!

The devil wants people to believbe the EASY path of Once Saved Always Saved so that he can gert people to mortally sin–they won’t worry about mortal sin–they’ll say to themselves–I’ll confess that sin to god later–i’m pretty busy with life right now!

Then death comes like a thief in the night as Jesus taught and then the devil laughingly takes them off to Hell!

The once Saved always Saved Crowd never worries about that possibility–their fairth IS an easier faith–they just slap one another on the back and sing “Blessed Assurance”.

Now could a person repent and die without doing a “God willed Work”? Of course that is possible. Is it likely that that will happen–that a person will be saved without “God willed works” that PERFECT and COMPLETE their jusitification?

No! Most people do not convert and die like the good thief did.

Of course who is to say that they weren’t performing “God willed works” between the time they converted and the time they died?

If they were only praising God or praying for someone for a split second before death they would be performing thoise “God willed works” and yes those “God willed works” would be COMPLETING and PERFECTING their justification and faith and salvatioThe KEY poin is COMPETING–that denotes an action that was STARTED in the PAST and CONTINUES into the future.

Justification is a CONTINUING event–it is not a branding event.

We should be thankful that our Protestant bretheren do not believe that we are saved by works–Catholics believe that we aren’t save by “man initiated works” or “works of the law” but Catholics DO believe we are save in “God willed Works” that come after initial faith–see Faith stars in the past and CONTINUES THROUGH "God willed works in the present and into the future.

Grace is a FLOWING CONTINUANCE!

If it is FLOWING at death thren the person will go to Heaven either immediately or after purification in purgatory.

But if that faith isn’t CONTINUING–if MORTAL SIN has stopped it–then death will stop it forever and the person will go to Hell!

Luther didn’t like that truth. Protestants don’t like that truth–but it is THE TRUTH!

And on elas thing about Lutheranism–some Protestants do not believe in Once Saved Always saved–they believe that a person can fall away and be lost.

Theym do not believe though in mortal sin–in other words they think it takes APOSTRASY or some amount of long time turning away to lose salvation.

In other words they believe in a HARDER version of Chrisitanity than the Once Saved Always saved crowd believes in but they don’t believe in damnation by just mere ONE mortal sin like Catholics do.

They are LESS wrong than the Once Saved Always Saved Crowd is but they’re still wrong enough to wind up in Hell if they committ a mortal sin aand are unrepentent at death.

But before we as Catholics should take pride and get full of ourselves–we can go to Hell by just one unrepented MORTAL sin at death.

We have the sacraments to help us–we have the Blessed Virgin Mary to help us–we have the saints to help us–but we can still go to Hell…

Remember that Paul says he must be diligent lest after his preaching to others that he could still be lost!

So as he also says run the race for the pize!

Christianity really is ALL or NOTHING.

God is INFINITELY merciful but He is also INFINITELY just.

Lord have Mercy on us all who are sinners!

 

[QuickCat]

God loves us all.

I don’t think about Heaven in terms of Salvation. Or Salvation in terms of Heaven. One gets tied up in too many knotts etc.

I keep it simple sister, KISS and just say God loves us all. That is very easy to deal with.

Hi RedRose: Indeed, God loves us so much that He sent His only Son to pay the full penalty for your sins and mine. The apostle Paul writes that our [all saved folks] citizenship is in heaven [Phil. 3:20] and we look for our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, to come in the air and catch us up [1 Thess. 4:13-18], and so shall we ever be with Him.
We are to look for Him and we are to tell others of His soon coming [parousia]!
QC

 

[Jerry-Jet]

The apostle Paul NOWHERE says it is guaranteed that a person who is saved is saved forever!

That’s why he says “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”

If you don’t WORK out your salvation with fear and trembling YOU ARE SINNING!

If you sin that way unrepentedly until death and die in that state of mortal sin you will go to Hell!

 

[William_C]

The apostle Paul NOWHERE says it is guaranteed that a person who is saved is saved forever!

That’s why he says “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”

If you don’t WORK out your salvation with fear and trembling YOU ARE SINNING!

If you sin that way unrepentedly until death and die in that state of mortal sin you will go to Hell!

If you ever see the hymn “Blessed Assurance” in a hymnbook rip it out and burn it!

Jesus says that it is He who gives eternal life to His sheep, and about them He says, “they shall never perish.” (Jn 10:28). If that’s not a guarantee, then I don’t know what a guarantee is (cf Eph 1:13-14).

 

[William_C]

The way to solve the difference between Paul and James is easy–NO humanh initiated works will save anyone.

No “:works of the law” will save anyone

List the works you do that save you that are not works of law.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Does Jesus ever Categorically state the exact moment that He gives life to His sheep and when He does that also categorically states that subsequent to that giving of life to His sheep that He PROHIBITS them from being able to use their free wills to walk away from them?

NO!!!

Any Work that God would WILL you to do according to James would not be a “work of the law” in the Old Testament sense of the word.

James 2:24–you see that by WORKS a man is justified and NOT by faith alone".

Exactly what part of “NOT” do Once Saved Always Saved supporters NOT understand?

Exactly what part of “FAITH LONE” do they NOT understand?

Exactly how does the Holy Spirit lie when He inspires those sacred words of scripture to be written?

An EXAMPLE of a WORK that justifies that IS NOT a “work of the law” is in the next verse when it says "In like manner was not Rahab the harlot also JUSTIFIED by WORKS, when she welcomed the messengers AND sent them out another way?

Is that WORK which was not MANDATED “by the law” listed by the Holy Bible good enough for you?!!!

Probably not since you won’t believe that a person is JUSTIFIED by WORKS like the bible says and you may be intellectually incapable of grasping that “FAITH ALONE” does not justify–go ahead–tell me how it is 180 degrees wrong!

Tell me how God gave you the authority to interpret the bible EXACTLY OPPOSITE of what it says.

There is no question that Jesus gives life to His sheep–there is question as to the exact moment that occurs forever!

We are indeed sealed with the Holy Spirit.

As for Ephseisans 1:13-14 it is indeed true that those who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit OF THE PROMISE.

What is the PROMISE? Does it include ONLY faith or belief in Christ ONLY? No! If that were true then James 2:24 could not also be true.

Jesus says whoever ABIDES in Him will be saved–NOT whoever at any time at any moment has ABIDED for that moment only!

He is the vine–we are the branches–we draw our SAVED life from Christ but like Jesus says we can STILL be cut off and burned!

Is it TRUE that the predestined will be saved?

Of course! The Catholic Church believes in the predestination of the ELECT.

The Catholic Church does not believe that ALL those who have at any point believed are the same as those who are PREDESTINED and PERSEVERE until the end–or ABIDE in Jesus till the end–the saved ones DO PERSEVERE–ALL WHO BELIEVE do NOT PERSEVERE.

Is it true that the devil can not SNATCH the sheep out of Jesus’ hand?

Yes that is definitely true–it is not true that Jesus will not LET those who wish to leave Him in fact LEAVE. He does LET them LEAVE–they LEAVE not because of Satan but because of their own choice and Jesus honors that free will choice because “God is love” and according to St. Paul “Love does not demand its own way”.

And yes Judas was LOST by Jesus AFTER he had been chosen!

Judas didn’t abide!

Judas was CALLED but not chosen! Anyone who believes is CALLED but only those who persevere to the end are CHOSEN–they are the ones who are predestined!

Faith CAN lead to salvation–faith doesn’t always lead to salvation.

Mortal sin is real–when one commits it the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit leave.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do not leave when a man venially sins–that kind of person like Proverbs says can fall SEVEN time a day and still be righteous!

He isn’t righteous because He’s once saved always saved but because he ha only VENIALLY sinned–he hasn’t sinned unto death!

The ONLY reason anyone believes that FAITH ALONE saves or believes in Once Saved always Saved is because IT IS EASY!!!

No one believed it for 1500 years and NO!!! Christ would not allow His church to teach error for 1500 years!

But if you have read these things you will not be able to tell Jesus that you didn’t HEAR the truth!

Die in mortal sin and you will spend eternity in Hell!

Repent while you still have a chance!

And one last thing: are you willing to bet your eternal soul on the proposition that faith alone and Once Saved Always Saved are true?

If the Catholics are wrong about Once Saved Always Saved and Faith alone you lose nothing if you believe them and "WORK out your salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING.

If the Catholics are right then you will burn and scream in Hell forever if you don’t believe in MORTAL sin and die before repenting of mortal sin when relying on Faith Alone or Once Saved Always saved.

The only people DUMB enough to make that bet would be the exact people that the devil is counting on!

 

[Lochias]

What are you having difficulty following?

Your entire premise. There is a logical disconnect.

I believe that for Catholics, Trent condemned the idea that works are simply a show that your faith is alive, but that your works merit for you grace which merits eternal life. It seems from Trent then, your works do save you.

But you aren’t grasping the idea of what “merit” means in this context. God grants his merit to us out of love for our works in faith, not because we have earned them in any way, shape or form. He gives us the graces we need through our faithful works because He wants us to have it, not because we deserve it.

Then we agree, the Bible is a Christian book.

Indeed. A Christian document that was ratified and selected, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, by the first Christians, or Catholics, that edified and supported the beliefs of the Church which Jesus founded long before there was ever a book at all.

 

[Lochias]

Lochias: Greetings, I pray that you are well and happy in the Lord Jesus Christ, as I am.
Should we not read the address on the envelope to determine if the mail is ours? James, per Gal. 2:9, agreed to confine his ministry to Israel. He wrote his epistle very early in the period covered by the book of Acts. At that time the “12 tribes” were still under the law. Now I would agree with you if you use Eph. 2:10 for your argument. We are indeed saved “unto good works.” With that said, I will remind you that we are not saved nor kept by works. God the Holy Spirit sealed me the moment I believed in the Lord Jesus Christ [Eph. 1:13] and the very righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ was imputed to me at that time [2 Cor. 5:21]. What a wonderful Savior.
QC

I have long since become wearied with Bible versus cherry-picked out of context. Please base your arguments in the context of complete history and logic or else I will have to dismiss your words out-of-hand as old and tired, repeated to ineffectual oblivion by many others before you.

 

[dje101]

Your entire premise. There is a logical disconnect.

But you aren’t grasping the idea of what “merit” means in this context. God grants his merit to us out of love for our works in faith, not because we have earned them in any way, shape or form. He gives us the graces we need through our faithful works because He wants us to have it, not because we deserve it.

Indeed. A Christian document that was ratified and selected, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, by the first Christians, or Catholics, that edified and supported the beliefs of the Church which Jesus founded long before there was ever a book at all.

There is a quote from St. Faustina’s Diary that basically says the same thing. At that point, they were talking about adversities that her spiritual director was going through, but I think Jesus’ message can be understood in a broader scale.

I permit these adversities in order to increase his merit. I do not reward for good results but for the patience and hardship undergone for My sake.

I think this is along the same lines of what you were getting at.

 

[Lochias]

OK, then your works do save you, correct? Through them you obtain eternal life.

Are you saying that God is unable to give grace when He deems it suitable or good? Are you saying that the Bible tells us that He’s unable to do so?

 

[Lochias]

There is a quote from St. Faustina’s Diary that basically says the same thing. At that point, they were talking about adversities that her spiritual director was going through, but I think Jesus’ message can be understood in a broader scale.
I think this is along the same lines of what you were getting at.

More or less, yes. Church authorities have long understood the different kinds of merit there are, dependent on context. There are names for the different kinds, that escape me at the moment (and I’ve no time to Google-fu).

 

[dje101]

More or less, yes. Church authorities have long understood the different kinds of merit there are, dependent on context. There are names for the different kinds, that escape me at the moment (and I’ve no time to Google-fu).

I was basically getting at the fact that its not the acts themselves, but the fact that we are doing them out of love for God. Correct?

 

[pablope]

OK, then your works do save you, correct? Through them you obtain eternal life.

However, you cite from Eph 2. In verse nine of that chapter, the statement is made that salvation is “not of works.” How do you resolve the seeming contradiction between Paul and James?

Look for the article by Dr. Marshner and Jimmy Akin:

chnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/salvation.pdf