What does it mean to "Believe in Jesus"?

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Servant19 said:
What is the incentive to NOT sin therefore?

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So the only reason, in your view, to not sin is to avoid punishment? That would be rather selfish.

Therein lies the difference between Christianity and the religion of men. One holds that we are saved by the eternal, self-sacrificing love of God freely given to undeserving sinners in the Person of Jesus Christ; the other teaches works, effort, and moralism.
 
Gaelic_Bard said:
Of course it’s not empty. Are you saying there is fundamentally no difference between someone who lives in sin, unrepentant, and willful, despite a profession to be a Christian and someone who falls from time to time, yet always turns and repents, sorrowful?
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You wrote: “Those who do not obey show that their trust is void of reality and is simply an empty profession”. You made the distinction between Christians who obey and those who do not. My point is that we all fall into the category of “those who do not obey” to one degree or another.

You have now qualified that statement by distinguishing between those who are repentant and feel sorrow for their sins and those who do not, as opposed to those who obey and those who do not. That is a different question entirely.
 
Servant19 said:
What is the incentive to NOT sin therefore?

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In Catholic teaching, it is considered more proper, or perhaps virtuous, to avoid sin because we love God, and want to please Him, rather than avoiding sin because we fear Hell. In other words, we can avoid sin out of fear of Hell, but it is considered to be a less perfect reason for avoiding sin. Hell exists, and we do risk going there if we don’t repent of serious sin, but if we truly love God, then we will want to avoid offending Him. Sometimes it takes awhile to develop this virtue, and to love God so much that we want only to please Him., and not offend Him.
 
Kliska said:
Many many things including the love of God, the fact that each sin is put on Jesus on the cross and when we sin He bears our punishment (that fact each person should meditate on, and if it doesn’t break one’s heart, then they have issues), loss of rewards, gain of temporal consequences and chastisement, damaging the body of Christ, etc… etc…
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How do we explain that sin is put on Jesus and bares our punishment now, when he has risen from the dead and reigns in heaven?

We believe in Jesus, but as a risen savior, who won over death. Not trying to exclude that fact that he suffered greatly and was put to death by people who would not listen to his voice, I just have trouble imagining Jesus still suffering. I can see the suffering in the world and the effect sin has on each other as the body of Christ, but not the person of Christ because he lives.
 
“Happy are you who believe!” (cf 1 Peter 2:7). Let us turn to Jesus! He alone is the way that leads to eternal happiness, the truth who satisfies the deepest longings of every heart, and the life who brings ever new joy and hope, to us and to our world."

~ Pope Benedict XVI (Homily at Yankee Stadium)

“Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI Deus Caritas Est

“I invite all Christians, everywhere, at this very moment, to a renewed personal encounter with Jesus Christ, or at least an openness to letting him encounter them; I ask all of you to do this unfailingly each day. No one should think that this invitation is not meant for him or her, since “no one is excluded from the joy brought by the Lord”.”

~ Pope Francis (Joy of the Gospel)

“Faith opens us to knowing and welcoming the real identity of Jesus, his newness and oneness, his word, as a source of life, in order to live a personal relationship with him. Knowledge of the faith grows, it grows with the desire to find the way and in the end it is a gift of God who does not reveal himself to us as an abstract thing without a face or a name, because faith responds to a Person who wants to enter into a relationship of deep love with us and to involve our whole life.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI (Sunday, 14 August 2011)
 
simpleas said:
How do we explain that sin is put on Jesus and bares our punishment now, when he has risen from the dead and reigns in heaven?

We believe in Jesus, but as a risen savior, who won over death. Not trying to exclude that fact that he suffered greatly and was put to death by people who would not listen to his voice, I just have trouble imagining Jesus still suffering. I can see the suffering in the world and the effect sin has on each other as the body of Christ, but not the person of Christ because he lives.
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He is “still suffering” only in the sense that He, at the time of the cross, bore all sin and became sin. Our sin now is placed on Him then. It doesn’t matter that it happened 2,000 years ago, if I commit adultery today, one of the effects of that is that He paid for that sin then as well. It is hard for us to grasp being creatures stuck in time.
 
Kliska said:
He is “still suffering” only in the sense that He, at the time of the cross, bore all sin and became sin. Our sin now is placed on Him then. It doesn’t matter that it happened 2,000 years ago, if I commit adultery today, one of the effects of that is that He paid for that sin then as well. It is hard for us to grasp being creatures stuck in time.
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That may be. However, thinking that way can lead some people into thinking, “oh well, Jesus already paid the price so what does it matter”, instead of feeling remorse and a desire to not commit more sins.

How many times have you seen the bumper sticker “christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven”.
 
Kliska said:
He is “still suffering” only in the sense that He, at the time of the cross, bore all sin and became sin. Our sin now is placed on Him then. It doesn’t matter that it happened 2,000 years ago, if I commit adultery today, one of the effects of that is that He paid for that sin then as well. It is hard for us to grasp being creatures stuck in time.
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Could you provide a reference or further explanation as to how the effects of our sins are placed on Jesus, in that he still suffers for it? I’m not familiar with this view.
 
Kliska said:
He is “still suffering” only in the sense that He, at the time of the cross, bore all sin and became sin. Our sin now is placed on Him then. It doesn’t matter that it happened 2,000 years ago, if I commit adultery today, one of the effects of that is that He paid for that sin then as well. It is hard for us to grasp being creatures stuck in time.
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👍
 
Denise1957 said:
Could you provide a reference or further explanation as to how the effects of our sins are placed on Jesus, in that he still suffers for it? I’m not familiar with this view.
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The traditional Protestant view would be that Jesus suffered once, in time, on the cross, for all sins past, present and future. Since He is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, His suffering then covers all transgressions. So He is not still suffering for them.
 
Denise1957 said:
Could you provide a reference or further explanation as to how the effects of our sins are placed on Jesus, in that he still suffers for it? I’m not familiar with this view.
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It is the Catholic view as well. Jesus took on the sins of the world, not just the sins of man up to the time of his death. His sacrifice is an eternal sacrifice, and is not subject to time and space. Jesus does not still suffer for us. What he did on the cross has been accomplished, once, for all. But he bore every sin I have committed and will commit in the future.
 
SteveVH said:
It is the Catholic view as well. Jesus took on the sins of the world, not just the sins of man up to the time of his death. His sacrifice is an eternal sacrifice, and is not subject to time and space. Jesus does not still suffer for us. What he did on the cross has been accomplished, once, for all. But he bore every sin I have committed and will commit in the future.
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I hope this is never debated. If so I am closing my account and breaking my tablet! Lol
 
Per_Crucem said:
Just for the sake of it, I will introduce the Orthodox view, and make all yall blow a gasket. Muhahahaha
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I am a stone throw away from you. I will come and break your tablet also lol

I believe it is a slap in the face of Jesus when I do sin. Sadly I still keep doing it.
 
Denise1957 said:
I’m looking forward to it! 😃
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It’s pretty straightforward, as those things go (which, with the atonement, we probably make much more complicated than it actually is). Penal substitution…a hallmark of traditional Protestantism…(especially Lutheran and Reformed) is generally considered heresy, especially the idea of the wrath of God being satisfied by punishing Christ. While Orthodoxy does embrace an expiating atonement, which is substitutionary, it far more emphasises the Christus Victor understanding of the atonement as primarily one in which death is defeated by Christ assuming man’s fallen condition, taking it to the grave, burying it there, and rising to the glorified human nature.

As I have seen, though, Catholicism rejects penal substitution, too (though Anselm, a western thinker, is credited with much of the theology behind it).
 
Per_Crucem said:
It’s pretty straightforward, as those things go (which, with the atonement, we probably make much more complicated than it actually is). Penal substitution…a hallmark of traditional Protestantism…(especially Lutheran and Reformed) is generally considered heresy, especially the idea of the wrath of God being satisfied by punishing Christ. While Orthodoxy does embrace an expiating atonement, which is substitutionary, it far more emphasises the Christus Victor understanding of the atonement as primarily one in which death is defeated by Christ assuming man’s fallen condition, taking it to the grave, burying it there, and rising to the glorified human nature.

As I have seen, though, Catholicism rejects penal substitution, too (though Anselm, a western thinker, is credited with much of the theology behind it).
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Thanks for the info, but I’m still confused as to how our sins are supposed to cause Jesus to suffer on the Cross then (during his passion). Can you explain what this has to do with penal substitution? I appreciate further explanation on the subject.
 
Denise1957 said:
Thanks for the info, but I’m still confused as to how our sins are supposed to cause Jesus to suffer on the Cross then (during his passion). Can you explain what this has to do with penal substitution? I appreciate further explanation on the subject.
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Meaning that Jesus, because He is divine, suffered on the cross once in time, but the effects of that suffering are timeless and not bound by history. So when a Christian repents now and is forgiven, his sins are forgiven based on the suffering of Christ 2000 years ago outside of Jerusalem.

Penal substitution only comes into play if someone believes that when Jesus suffered, the forensic debt that we owe to God was satisfied Christ in view of God’s wrath being poured out on Jesus instead of on us for the sins we’ve committed.
 
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