What does it mean to "Believe in Jesus"?

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SteveVH said:
It is the Catholic view as well. Jesus took on the sins of the world, not just the sins of man up to the time of his death. His sacrifice is an eternal sacrifice, and is not subject to time and space. Jesus does not still suffer for us. What he did on the cross has been accomplished, once, for all. But he bore every sin I have committed and will commit in the future.
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Per_Crucem said:
Meaning that Jesus, because He is divine, suffered on the cross once in time, but the effects of that suffering are timeless and not bound by history. So when a Christian repents now and is forgiven, his sins are forgiven based on the suffering of Christ 2000 years ago outside of Jerusalem.

Penal substitution only comes into play if someone believes that when Jesus suffered, the forensic debt that we owe to God was satisfied Christ in view of God’s wrath being poured out on Jesus instead of on us for the sins we’ve committed.
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I understand the part where sins are forgiven based on Christ’s suffering 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, and I can appreciate that it’s a complicated subject.

So, in trying to further understand penal substitution, does it mean that we as sinners don’t have to worry about our sins because Jesus suffered for all of them, even those we all (in our time) commit? This doesn’t seem very Catholic to me, since the debt owed by sin still has to be paid, maybe in Purgatory, if needed, by us. Why would we want to put that on Our Lord, and further increase His suffering. 😦 It seems that the penal substitution make Jesus required to keep paying for all of our sins, so that we don’t have to suffer or pay for them at all, which seems rather Protestant to me, and is a way to discount the reality of Purgatory, and works needed to grow in holiness. Am I understanding it correctly at all?
 
Denise1957 said:
I understand the part where sins are forgiven based on Christ’s suffering 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, and I can appreciate that it’s a complicated subject.

So, in trying to further understand penal substitution, does it mean that we as sinners don’t have to worry about our sins because Jesus suffered for all of them, even those we all (in our time) commit? This doesn’t seem very Catholic to me, since the debt owed by sin still has to be paid, maybe in Purgatory, if needed, by us. Why would we want to put that on Our Lord, and further increase His suffering. 😦 It seems that the penal substitution make Jesus required to keep paying for all of our sins, so that we don’t have to suffer or pay for them at all, which seems rather Protestant to me, and is a way to discount the reality of Purgatory, and works needed to grow in holiness. Am I understanding it correctly at all?
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It would mean that to some extent, yes. In the sense that penal substitution means that since God the Father poured out his wrath due to sin on Christ, then He cannot justly pour it out on us. Aside from that, though, the heresy is more the idea that God the Father is the ultimate cause of Jesus’ and creates ontological chaos in the inner harmony of the Trinity.
 
Kliska said:
He is “still suffering” only in the sense that He, at the time of the cross, bore all sin and became sin. Our sin now is placed on Him then. It doesn’t matter that it happened 2,000 years ago, if I commit adultery today, one of the effects of that is that He paid for that sin then as well. It is hard for us to grasp being creatures stuck in time.
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Thanks.

The time thing is tricky, Jesus was in time 2,000 years ago, he was on earth in our time when he paid the price for our sins. So when he rose, he was no longer bound by our time, and so could no longer suffer for sin…at least I don’t think so…:confused:

I sort of understand the past present and future sin that he bore,in that time 2,000 years ago, it’s just saying he still suffers in his glorified state…
 
Per_Crucem said:
It would mean that to some extent, yes. In the sense that penal substitution means that since God the Father poured out his wrath due to sin on Christ, then He cannot justly pour it out on us. Aside from that, though, the heresy is more the idea that God the Father is the ultimate cause of Jesus’ and creates ontological chaos in the inner harmony of the Trinity.
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Do you mean that the idea (of penal substitution) has to do with God the Father as being the ultimate cause of Jesus’ suffering, in that He had to be appeased, or something like that? I’ve not ever heard of the idea of chaos in the inner harmony of the Trinity. That’s new to me, too.

One traditional Catholic view that I know of is that Jesus did not have to be crucified in order to redeem us. One drop of his blood from even his finger would have sufficed. But He chose to go the route that he did, out of love for us, and obedience to the Father.
 
Denise1957 said:
Do you mean that the idea (of penal substitution) has to do with God the Father as being the ultimate cause of Jesus’ suffering, in that He had to be appeased, or something like that? I’ve not ever heard of the idea of chaos in the inner harmony of the Trinity. That’s new to me, too.

One traditional Catholic view that I know of is that Jesus did not have to be crucified in order to redeem us. One drop of his blood from even his finger would have sufficed. But He chose to go the route that he did, out of love for us, and obedience to the Father.
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Hey Denise,

Christ actually prayed that if there was a way to complete the task then let the cup pass over him but let the Father’s Will be done. The sacrifice was needed. He was the one and only perfect sacrifice.

I believe in the substitutionary atonement.
 
simpleas said:
Thanks.

The time thing is tricky, Jesus was in time 2,000 years ago, he was on earth in our time when he paid the price for our sins. So when he rose, he was no longer bound by our time, and so could no longer suffer for sin…at least I don’t think so…:confused:

I sort of understand the past present and future sin that he bore,in that time 2,000 years ago, it’s just saying he still suffers in his glorified state…
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I don’t think any church teaches He is currently suffering as He did on the cross? :confused:

Our sin has to be made present at the cross for Jesus to bear them, the cross was an event in time, hence we can accurately say that Jesus is currently seated at the right hand of the Father, and isn’t suffering on the cross, at this moment.
 
Let me say a few words on this eternal offering of Our Lord. Jesus paid the price for our sins by offering himself up to redeem us… However, it is up to us to ‘offer’ ourselves up to God in a holy manner, in order to enter into the sacrifice which was a lasting sacrifice for all time…So it’s not a matter of Jesus dying for us and that’s it. God wants us to enter into a relationship with Him so through this relationship we are redeemed and brought into Christs sacrifice… For Catholics we do it in conjunction with the sacraments. We are first baptized and join in Jesus death and resurrection and then we come to the mass with a clean heart offering ourselves to the Lord and receive the body and blood of Christ so that we will enter into His passion and death and will be resurrected on the last day. John 6:54

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God–this is your true and proper worship.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

The unending sacrifice keeps happening every day at mass but in a manner as Jesus prescribed at the Last Supper in anticipation of the Sacrifice Jesus was about to make, which is an eternal Sacrifice… This is the Supper of the Lamb where the bridegroom consummates with the Bride…

And every time the body and blood of Christ is lifted up at the mass since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, we have been drawn to Him… This is why we are One Body of Christ… we are in union with Jesus, God the Father, the angels and Saints, and our brothers and sisters in communion we are One in the Spirit we are One in the Lord as the song goes… That’s what it means to be In Christ and part of our personal relationship with Christ. It’s never a me and Jesus situation when it comes to the Church, because we are one in the Spirit of God and that Spirit of being a family of God is also a part of who we are as Christians. Apart from the Church, we’re not much of a Catholic because the Catholic belief is centered on the Eucharist and we are part of a family of God connected by the Eucharist… Our Triune God is part of the Eucharistic meal of Thanksgiving… We thank the Father for His gifts, we offer ourselves up to the Lord and the Holy Spirit to bind us all together as One Body of Christ…

So previously I asked about the trinity and the body of Christ and this is where we differ from many protestant brothers and sisters belief on these things. I could go into more depth about this, but I will sum up, as we consume Christ, Christ consumes us and we are shrouded in His Glory… !
 
aidanbradypop said:
Hey Denise,

Christ actually prayed that if there was a way to complete the task then let the cup pass over him but let the Father’s Will be done. The sacrifice was needed. He was the one and only perfect sacrifice.

I believe in the substitutionary atonement.
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That’s okay if you want to believe in the substitutionary atonement. I won’t try to talk you out of it, especially since I don’t fully understand it yet. But a very holy traditional Catholic priest said, in a homily at Mass, that even a drop of blood from our Lord’s finger would have sufficed for our redemption. I don’t fully know why this is, but I’ll try to investigate it. I’m not comfortable with the idea that Christ has to suffer even MORE than He did on the Cross due to our sins. I’d rather spend a hundred years in Purgatory than to cause Him any suffering at all, since I don’t want anyone whom I love to suffer.
 
What’s important to know is that with God things are eternal but with men things are finite. So Jesus being God offered us an eternal sacrifice is a lasting sacrifice which we can enter into…
 
Denise1957 said:
That’s okay if you want to believe in the substitutionary atonement. I won’t try to talk you out of it, especially since I don’t fully understand it yet. But a very holy traditional Catholic priest said, in a homily at Mass, that even a drop of blood from our Lord’s finger would have sufficed for our redemption. I don’t fully know why this is, but I’ll try to investigate it. I’m not comfortable with the idea that Christ has to suffer even MORE than He did on the Cross due to our sins. I’d rather spend a hundred years in Purgatory than to cause Him any suffering at all, since I don’t want anyone whom I love to suffer.
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I am right there with ya on the suffering thing. Like Kliska stated, I not sure any faith tradition teaches that he still suffers for each and every sin. Now growing up in the SBC, I was always taught as a child that each time I sin, I make Jesus sad. I had a vacation Bible school teacher once state that each time we sinned we justified the sacrifice of Jesus. That stings a little. 😊
 
The mystery of the Eucharist is a sacrifice, it is a memorial, and it is an offering to us… It is a mystery of God… Christ has not died,Christ is risen and is on the right hand of God and on our Altar,Thy will is done on earth as it is in heaven always drawing us towards Our Heavenly Father through Christ Our Lord… Experiencing communion brings us as close to heaven we can possibly be in our human condition, but one day the veil of bread will be lifted and we will see Jesus in heaven.
 
aidanbradypop said:
I am right there with ya on the suffering thing. Like Kliska stated, I not sure any faith tradition teaches that he still suffers for each and every sin. Now growing up in the SBC, I was always taught as a child that each time I sin, I make Jesus sad. I had a vacation Bible school teacher once state that each time we sinned we justified the sacrifice of Jesus. That stings a little. 😊
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I appreciate the thoughtful post, but it seems that the substitutionary atonement belief is that Christ does suffer more, due to our own sins, even though he suffers it in the past, on the Cross. That just doesn’t seem right to me. I can understand that Jesus is sad due to our sins, but since I have a particular devotion to Christ’s Passion and to the Five Wounds, the thought of Him suffering on the Cross even more is painful for me. But I understand that others here will see it differently, and that’s okay.
 
We are way off topic but this would be a really awesome thread if someone wants to start it. 😃
 
Here’s where Jesus, as Our High Priest, offers us up to God the Father having made us clean and holy as we draw near to Him and being transformed into His likeness by Jesus purifying us… on earth and completed in heaven…

Hebrews 7: 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.
 
To believe in Jesus is to proclaim the Good News to the ends of the Earth. That he lived, suffered, died for ALL (thus opening up Heaven again), rose again and will return to judge the living and the dead.

To believe in Jesus, also means practicing and Faithfully observing his commands like “Do this in memory of me”, lest we forget (the Galatians come to mind) Then only world and future generations will know and believe in the One God (Father and Son and Holy Spirit).

This then means we as followers of Christ, be Christ to others, be of one mind and one Faith in Love.

MJ
 
To that point, I believe Dustin and I came to a consensus on one point. We both sited one scripture. And both Protestants and Catholics alike do this in their own particular way and it is a life choice to offer ourselves up to God and become an ‘intentional disciple of Christ’. Catholics offer themselves up at the mass before we eat and drink the body and blood of Christ, Baptists and Protestants alike offer themselves up to God in their own way. They’ll have altar calls, or go up to the Baptist Minister or some other Church leader say Billy Graham or Joel Osteen and offer themselves up to the Lord. That is how we enter into divine life with God which many call their saving moment after which they might be baptized. The offer from Jesus is always there, all we have to do is take Him up on it, but it doesn’t stop there. We must offer our lives and make our lives holy and pleasing to God for as Jesus says, be Holy as Our Father is holy and be perfect as Our Heavenly Father is perfect.

Romans 1:21 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God–this is your true and proper worship.

And it’s all good!??👍😛
 
Karen107 said:
To that point, I believe Dustin and I came to a consensus on one point. We both sited one scripture. And both Protestants and Catholics alike do this in their own particular way and it is a life choice to offer ourselves up to God and become an ‘intentional disciple of Christ’. Catholics offer themselves up at the mass before we eat and drink the body and blood of Christ, Baptists and Protestants alike offer themselves up to God in their own way. They’ll have altar calls, or go up to the Baptist Minister, say Billy Graham or Joel Osteen and offer themselves up to the Lord. That is how we enter into divine life with God. The offer from Jesus is always there, all we have to do is take Him up on it, but it doesn’t stop there. We must offer our lives and make our lives holy and pleasing to God.

Romans 1:21 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God–this is your true and proper worship.
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How could you misquote Romans 12:1?:eek::eek:😃 lol Romans 1:21 is a wonderful verse as well though. 👍

Joel Osteen is a Prosperity Gospel preacher so I would not go up to him. :nope:
 
Oh Romans 12:1 … I’m a bit dyslexic… I still have it up on my tab…:bounce:

Me to on Joel Osteen, but if he can evangelize people more power to him…Sometimes people are drawn to him because he has something they want to hear.
 
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